UK face coverings discussion

[Bletchleyite]

What of the following two options is more likely to be causing the virus to spread?

1 - people travelling more, going to pubs, going to restaurants, going on holiday (and ignoring the self isolation on return if it applies to the relevant country), visiting family indoors, having house parties indoors, using public transport, going to the office, going back to work if applicable, going to events like the trial sports events and concerts that have happened etc.
2 - masks.

It is pretty damn obvious list number 1 is going to have a much larger impact surely!

Certainly that's what one would expect. But it's categorically not how the graph has drawn itself. All those things in (1) have been happening with no uptick, just a gradual linear rise which may actually have been no rise as testing was also rising. Then (2) happened and cases have started to grow exponentially.

Now I'm not going to blame that on masks as others have (because other things have happened), but I think that shows that they had very little effect, other than possibly on public transport where they allowed distancing to be reduced. (And I don't think I'd blame that for the uptick, because outside of London, much to the dislike of this Forum of course, most people do not use public transport).

Personally I thought they would cause a noticeable downtick, but they didn't, which is why I'm starting to revise my view on them. I'm heading towards the line that their main effect is to stop the "Karens" from being scared of going out and spending their money (and there are rather more Karens than there are vehement mask-opposers).

 

[yorksrob]

Followed by that terrifying jingle...

"Da da da da da da da doyng........bling"

I was toying with the idea of having that as a ringtone at one point.

 

[Huntergreed]

I know of a few schools that are expecting students to wear coverings.

Can I remind everyone it’s mandatory in Scotland for both staff and pupils. I’ve been in one; it looks like a hospital ward, completely faceless and the kids are treated like dirty vultures if they don’t wear one (exempt or not). It’s awful

 

[Bletchleyite]

Found myself taking the Chiltern line from Oxford again earlier, which seemed to have encountered some out of course running (someone mentioned a breakdown) resulting in them operating a 2-car DMU from platform 4, which is so far out of course I didn't even know it was possible to get from platform 4 to the Chiltern lines. Apart from it being fairly busy (so distancing wasn't possible, and the driver actually made an announcement to ignore the seat labels saying not to use them), the main thing of note was that quite a number of very confused looking people went to speak to the driver...and to do so removed their mask and went within 2m. Oops.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

1) I believe the principle is supposed to be that you wear masks when you can't avoid getting 'too' close to people. Not that having a mask on means you don't bother keeping your distance when you could easily do so.

2) Masks may help but I don't have the evidence to be sure of this. Therefore it is illogical of me to act as if they definitely do.



I think we're rather going round on circles on this, but, for example:

Infection rates in Caerphilly shot up recently. There was no mask mandate or any other big change in regulations coinciding with this.

If they had just brought in stricter mask requirements I expect people here would be saying this is strong evidence that masks are bad.

I think the phrase infection rate is being used inappropriately. What do you mean by it? If an area shows an uptick in the number of cases, and a lot more people are tested, then it could appropriately be said that the detection rate has risen. If the percentage of individuals with the virus, in that area, remains broadly unchanged, revealing more cases by more testing does not necessarily mean the rate of new infections is increasing, surely?

 

[Cowley]

Just had my first mask related encounter.

Sat on the bus home (Go North East). Top deck is completely empty and I'm sat at the front.

Pulled my mask down a couple of times to reach into my bag and eat some pretzels. Pushed it up in between.

Driver stops the bus, comes storming up the stairs and says if I pull down my mask again I'll be thrown off.

I can't say I expected that. No rules posted about eating and drinking either. Otherwise I'm always masked up, so I was a little taken aback by the borderline aggressive attitude.

Unfortunately (and I’ve noticed a lot of this recently), there are a certain section of people that have wanted to treat people that way for a very long time, and they now find themselves in a position where they can get away with it.
He could have easily talked to you politely but he chose not to because he probably knew he would get away with it in the current climate.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Can I remind everyone it’s mandatory in Scotland for both staff and pupils. I’ve been in one; it looks like a hospital ward, completely faceless and the kids are treated like dirty vultures if they don’t wear one (exempt or not). It’s awful

Ah yes, because of course you're more likely to pick up this virus passing someone in the corridor, not sitting next to them for 50 minutes (or more!) in a classroom.

Not that I advocate their use in classrooms, mind, but just shows how silly the decision was.

 

[AdamWW]

I think the phrase infection rate is being used inappropriately. What do you mean by it? If an area shows an uptick in the number of cases, and a lot more people are tested, then it could appropriately be said that the detection rate has risen. If the percentage of individuals with the virus, in that area, remains broadly unchanged, revealing more cases by more testing does not necessarily mean the rate of new infections is increasing, surely?

Yes fair point - just looking at graphs of positive test results can be very misleading.

And that's why people also look at the percentage of positive results.

But I don't think that in Caerphilly they decided to do lots more tests and then justified increasing restrictions because that meant positive results went up. At least I hope not.

 

[yorkie]

Ah yes, because of course you're more likely to pick up this virus passing someone in the corridor, not sitting next to them for 50 minutes (or more!) in a classroom.

Their argument is that in corridors you can get 'cross contamination' of different 'bubbles' if people pass close by someone in a different 'bubble'; the belief is that the use of masks reduces this, but I am not convinced.

 

[AdamWW]

Ah yes, because of course you're more likely to pick up this virus passing someone in the corridor, not sitting next to them for 50 minutes (or more!) in a classroom.

Not that I advocate their use in classrooms, mind, but just shows how silly the decision was.

I suppose that depends on whether you can keep children in their year 'bubbles' at all times. If they are mixing in corridors with pupils outside their bubbles, then there is maybe some logic to this.

But the same logic would say you don't then let children from different years mix on school transport without masks on. Hmmm.

 

[Richard Scott]

Their argument is that in corridors you can get 'cross contamination' of different 'bubbles' if people pass close by someone in a different 'bubble'; the belief is that the use of masks reduces this, but I am not convinced.

The issue is this word 'belief', no actual scientific evidence. Before imposing regulations there should be proper scientific evidence not anecdotal, which is what we seem to be basing many recent regulations on.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The same driver also appeared to deliberately stop short of a bus stop when two intending passengers had their masks in their hands. He refused to pull forward until they were put on.

So, if in that case, he wasn't just picking on me alone, this means he's been going around the entire time behaving like this.

For the record, I do believe masks to be helpful and will wear them wherever its required.

I witnessed an incident where an intending passenger boarded without a mask, apologising for not having put one in his pocket on leaving home. He asked the driver ‘is it ok?’
‘I can’t stop you’ says the driver.
Showing a mobile ticket, the mid-teens guy asked again
‘Yeah, but is it ok for me to get on the bus?’
With an air of frustration, the driver repeated ‘I can’t STOP you’!
Passenger went to the upper deck, but I overheard chatter ranging from
‘Should’ve been thrown off!’
through to
‘What’s the harm, someone of his age probably hasn’t got it’

It should be noted that although the bus company has got posters stating some exemptions are not visible, I haven’t seen any wording such as ‘travel may be refused’ in respect of non-wearers.
So maybe the driver was correct in his statement?

Certainly that's what one would expect. But it's categorically not how the graph has drawn itself. All those things in (1) have been happening with no uptick, just a gradual linear rise which may actually have been no rise as testing was also rising. Then (2) happened and cases have started to grow exponentially.

Now I'm not going to blame that on masks as others have (because other things have happened), but I think that shows that they had very little effect, other than possibly on public transport where they allowed distancing to be reduced. (And I don't think I'd blame that for the uptick, because outside of London, much to the dislike of this Forum of course, most people do not use public transport).

Personally I thought they would cause a noticeable downtick, but they didn't, which is why I'm starting to revise my view on them. I'm heading towards the line that their main effect is to stop the "Karens" from being scared of going out and spending their money (and there are rather more Karens than there are vehement mask-opposers).

Wonder if the lady pictured outside Primark in Birmingham in full hazmat gear was named Karen...

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Their argument is that in corridors you can get 'cross contamination' of different 'bubbles' if people pass close by someone in a different 'bubble'; the belief is that the use of masks reduces this, but I am not convinced.

I suppose that depends on whether you can keep children in their year 'bubbles' at all times. If they are mixing in corridors with pupils outside their bubbles, then there is maybe some logic to this.

But the same logic would say you don't then let children from different years mix on school transport without masks on. Hmmm.

No such thing as "bubbles" in schools up here.

 

[packermac]

I suppose that depends on whether you can keep children in their year 'bubbles' at all times. If they are mixing in corridors with pupils outside their bubbles, then there is maybe some logic to this.

But the same logic would say you don't then let children from different years mix on school transport without masks on. Hmmm.

All the kids I have seen this week getting off the school bus were wearing masks.

 

[Huntergreed]

On the 09:10 AWC service from Manchester - Euston this morning:

Please remember you MUST wear your face masks throughout the entirety of your journey. We do have the British Transport Police jumping on and off our trains and if they find you without your mask on and without an exemption certificate, you will be fined £100

Where is everyone hearing about these “exemption certificates”??? I just don’t understand!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Send a complaint. They don't exist, therefore nobody can have one!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Regulation 13 of the Scottish regulations coming into effect on 14 September (warning: a very long and complex read)
SSI 2020 / 279
require you to wear a face covering in a pub or restaurant, unless you are seated at a table.

Exactly like in Italy. Lol. Where masks there are compulsory in restaurants unless you're seated at a table. And I believe the same thing applies to England.

Personally though, masks are impossible and are no use in restaurants and pubs. I mean seriously, how you can you eat or drink when wearing one?

Also, everyone. Not that I want it to happen (and I'd rather not if possible), but could we eventually see the introduction the mandatory wearing of masks outdoors when we leave the house coming to the UK any time soon? Basically what they have done in some French and Spanish towns and cities, and what they have done on Italy when going out at night.

 

[island]

Of course, say for example, if someone has a medical condition which means they are permitted not to wear a mask, then I can see how they can be judged. I was in a restaurant a week or so ago & one server wasn't wearing one. I initially thought it a little odd as all the others were wearing one, but then I reminded myself not to judge as there could be a valid reason.

If you were in the UK, the valid reason is that under the Coronavirus regulations face coverings are not required to be worn (by anyone) in restaurants with table service, nor by staff in restaurants without table service.

In a nutshell, I feel balance, calm & the best science is what is needed, as well as researching thoroughly, in a non partisan manner, the existential threats we face that I outlined earlier. We live in a relatively free society & it is incumbent on us as responsible citizens to hold our representatives to account & to literally save our home & way of life.

I agree. Sadly, until masktivists start accepting that people have genuine concerns and genuine exemptions, those people will need to raise their tones to be heard.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Send a complaint. They don't exist, therefore nobody can have one!

Will this do?

 

[packermac]

Send a complaint. They don't exist, therefore nobody can have one!

Well this was in the West Midlands Railway and LNWR emails I received on Friday

Passengers who do not wish to wear a lanyard but would like another way to discreetly indicate their condition if asked, can:

• Carry a JAM card – this stands for ‘Just A Minute’ and is used by many people with autism and communication barriers
• Carry a Passenger Support Card – available here
• Carry a West Midlands Network exemption card
• Carry a government official exemption card or badge – available here

 

[AdamWW]

Well this was in the West Midlands Railway and LNWR emails I received on Friday

Passengers who do not wish to wear a lanyard but would like another way to discreetly indicate their condition if asked, can:

• Carry a JAM card – this stands for ‘Just A Minute’ and is used by many people with autism and communication barriers
• Carry a Passenger Support Card – available here
• Carry a West Midlands Network exemption card
• Carry a government official exemption card or badge – available here

From: here

Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

This is a personal choice, and is not necessary in law.

If you would like to use an exemption card you can use the PDF attachments on this page.

Those who have an age, health or disability reason to not wear a face covering should not be routinely asked to provide any written evidence of this. Written evidence includes exemption cards.

I suppose a TOC can choose to be stricter than the law, but I'm not sure they should be allowed to override the principle that people shouldn't be "routinely" made to provide written evidence. (Which includes something you've just printed off the internet...)

 

[birchesgreen]

I observed an incident of mask rage for the first time in the supermarket earlier, a bloke told off a young woman for not wearing a mask.

Now she, being a typical Erdington lass - 5 kids in tow, Croydon facelift et cetera - gave an amazingly varied expletive filled reply and stormed off.

I think i'm in love.

 

[yorkie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54057799

Disposable masks 'causing enormous plastic waste'

The government has been urged to do more to get people to switch from disposable masks to reusable coverings.

The Liberal Democrats said single-use surgical masks caused "enormous" plastic waste and that environmentally friendly alternatives must be promoted.

And the Green Party wants ministers to push the media to show them less, to stop their use becoming "normalised".

Disposable masks contain plastics which pollute water and can harm wildlife who eat them or become tangled in them.

Very predictable, sadly.

On the 09:10 AWC service from Manchester - Euston this morning:

Where is everyone hearing about these “exemption certificates”??? I just don’t understand!!

No such thing. But some overly authoritarian pro-mask individuals want them to exist...

https://twitter.com/updownmain/status/1304763398463393794

...Once people cotton on to the fact you can just say "I'm exempt" with no proof and no challenge allowed then others will follow. I've seen it happen...

...So proving someone's disabled is ok, but proving you have a medical condition that stops you from wearing a face covering on public transport during a pandemic isn't. Gotcha.

https://twitter.com/Sulian102/status/1304985375199330310

You have to have a doctors exemption - anyone can simply say they are exempt.

https://twitter.com/culbia/status/1304796779213447169

... I think shop keepers, bus drivers etc. should stop admitting people without either mask or exemption certificate...

https://twitter.com/matthewpwillis/status/1305118813671886850

A shopkeeper can refuse entry to anyone they choose.

There is no reasoning with these overly authoritarian people.

We've created a very divisive monster.

 

[Bikeman78]

Exactly like in Italy. Lol. Where masks there are compulsory in restaurants unless you're seated at a table. And I believe the same thing applies to England.

Personally though, masks are impossible and are no use in restaurants and pubs. I mean seriously, how you can you eat or drink when wearing one?

Also, everyone. Not that I want it to happen (and I'd rather not if possible), but could we eventually see the introduction the mandatory wearing of masks outdoors when we leave the house coming to the UK any time soon? Basically what they have done in some French and Spanish towns and cities, and what they have done on Italy when going out at night.

If that happens I'll stop wearing them anywhere and put one on if asked.

 

[Huntergreed]

I think it’s becoming increasingly obvious that masks have no effect on reducing the spread of the virus, but they do have an effect on terrified Karen’s hiding in their homes who’re scared they will die without one. That’s why this whole issue is decisive, and I (personally) think it almost visually highlights the ones who fall for government scare tactics (the vocal, aggressive pro-maskers) and the logical ones who want evidence for why this uncomfortable law is being imposed on them (like most of us on here). I’m absolutely sick of the government appeasing the Karen’s and I think it’s time they started to be reasonable about this. We have absolutely no way out of this without a vaccine (which, thankfully, at the moment looks like it will happen soon enough), but in future we cannot base a pandemic strategy around the assumption that we will 100% get a vaccine. What I think I’m most disappointed in is how low our government has stooped. Terrifying people into their homes, telling youngsters “don’t kill your granny”, these things have no place in modern day society, and I would support a large scale enquiry into their whole handling of this mess (which they have caused, to a considerable extent)

Living in Scotland, I’m very angry at Sturgeon for the way she has handled this and whilst I can’t fault her on her clarity or appearances (a daily briefing every day since lockdown started for 6 months, that’s good leadership), I profoundly disagree with the approach she is taking, especiallt masking up schoolchildren and playing political games with Boris to support her independence campaign.

 

[Howardh]

I think it’s becoming increasingly obvious that masks have no effect on reducing the spread of the virus,

Not necessarily?? It will take time to prove, but if cases are increasing but deaths aren't wouldn't one of the logical answers be that masks - whilst still letting the virus out - are actually containing enough of the droplets/particals so that nearby people are only getting a fraction of the virus and are much more able to cope with it?
And if you get a low "dose" your body still has to work against it thus creating immunity? Which is hers-immunity I suppose?
Think that's how the flu vaccine works - please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a low dose to trigger your defences?
If deaths continue to be low it could also be that the most vulnerable have died,a d we protect by PPE those that remain, or indeed that the medical staff have now more experience with dealing with severe cases + drugs?

 

[Bantamzen]

Not necessarily?? It will take time to prove, but if cases are increasing but deaths aren't wouldn't one of the logical answers be that masks - whilst still letting the virus out - are actually containing enough of the droplets/particals so that nearby people are only getting a fraction of the virus and are much more able to cope with it?
And if you get a low "dose" your body still has to work against it thus creating immunity? Which is hers-immunity I suppose?
Think that's how the flu vaccine works - please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a low dose to trigger your defences?
If deaths continue to be low it could also be that the most vulnerable have died,a d we protect by PPE those that remain, or indeed that the medical staff have now more experience with dealing with severe cases + drugs?

I don't think that's how it works, being self-replicating even fairly small doses of the virus could gain a foothold. Its not about how much of the virus you are exposed to, but how your immune system reacts to it.

 

[greyman42]

I observed an incident of mask rage for the first time in the supermarket earlier, a bloke told off a young woman for not wearing a mask.

Now she, being a typical Erdington lass - 5 kids in tow, Croydon facelift et cetera - gave an amazingly varied expletive filled reply and stormed off.

I think i'm in love.

I wish I'd heard that, it would of made my day. The bloke got what he deserved, it was none of his business.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wish I'd heard that, it would of made my day. The bloke got what he deserved, it was none of his business.

I've just had a go at bloke at a local shop whinging at someone for not wearing a mask. I told them in no uncertain terms that it was none of their business after this bloke started challenging an elderly lady not wearing a mask. I think I may even have given him my infamous look of death (my wife tells me that when people really wind me up I have this stare that she's named the look of death), because he scuttled away promptly.

I am from now on adopting a zero tolerance stance with anyone trying to bully people around like this.

 

[adc82140]

On the other hand I went to pay for fuel the other day and just forgot my mask. Slipped my mind. The cashier said nothing, the other people in the shop said nothing (it was only when I saw the other shoppers I realised I'd forgotten to wear a covering)