First Greater Glasgow

[Glasgowbusguy]

Why would you split it at silverburn? Where would the driver get a break on the bus operating from silverburn to govan? Even if they did split the route at silverburn the likelihood is it would be the same bus continuing to govan as it would need to interwork so the driver can get to their depot or a bothy for a break. There is more to route planning than just throwing random ideas together.

Plus plenty of services terminate in both govan and silverburn. there's plenty of facilities at both areas for buses to terminate

 

[lastbus]

Silverburn would be the easiest place to have a break plus it's straightforward enough to get drivers to and from. I know there's more to it hence the idea in the first place.

How would you go about it?

It would cost money to get drivers to and from silverburn. First Glasgow use very little staff taxis. Most changeovers are done near a depot or bothy. I would keep the route the same as it is. You’ve already said people use it to cross city so that rules a city terminus out and as I said earlier to split it would probably mean the same bus being used anyway as the service would need to interwork.

 

[PaulMc7]

It would cost money to get drivers to and from silverburn. First Glasgow use very little staff taxis. Most changeovers are done near a depot or bothy. I would keep the route the same as it is. You’ve already said people use it to cross city so that rules a city terminus out and as I said earlier to split it would probably mean the same bus being used anyway as the service would need to interwork.

Could literally do it using the other buses that go to Silverburn. Seen plenty of drivers use other services to get to changing points. Could also save money too by dropping the frequency to every 15 mins. The key to getting passengers back after Covid will be reliability and services like the 3, 6, 201 etc will probably need some timetable work as a minimum

 

[lastbus]

Could literally do it using the other buses that go to Silverburn. Seen plenty of drivers use other services to get to changing points. Could also save money too by dropping the frequency to every 15 mins. The key to getting passengers back after Covid will be reliability and services like the 3, 6, 201 etc will probably need some timetable work as a minimum

They are not going to ask a driver to travel unpaid to silverburn to pick up a bus. Drivers are not paid to travel to relief points unless they are driving a company vehicle.

 

[PaulMc7]

They are not going to ask a driver to travel unpaid to silverburn to pick up a bus. Drivers are not paid to travel to relief points unless they are driving a company vehicle.

Definitely something that happens though considering the 1s especially when I've used them can have multiple drivers into the city centre.

Back to reliability though First will need to change a few things or post-Covid could be very bleak

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Possibly because the Eclipses are staying for the future for non LEZ stuff? Would certainly be better to get a refurb internally as well,

It might also be that the e300s might not be staying could be cascaded across the group? I'm not speculating as to that being the case (even though it feels like I am) but a number of the e300s have moved on to FSE or to Essex. As was seen by the influx of new vehicles into Leeds, whilst some older machines were binned off, quite a number of those displaced were relatively youthful 2012 B9s and 2014 e400s that were used to update other WY depots or cascade across First.

I don’t buy into the idea that First are going to have a separate non LEZ fleet for routes which don’t enter the LEZ zone. It would become a nightmare to manage and let’s be honest if there’s one thing First struggle with is keeping certain buses to certain routes. It happens right now with all the branded buses. I think the idea will be to have the majority of stock compliant which will eventually turn into all buses compliant.

I imagine we’ll see more buses come from various parts of the network to try and speed the process up. Hopefully if the E300s are planned to go elsewhere Glasgow will gain deckers which are much needed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don’t buy into the idea that First are going to have a separate non LEZ fleet for routes which don’t enter the LEZ zone. It would become a nightmare to manage and let’s be honest if there’s one thing First struggle with is keeping certain buses to certain routes. It happens right now with all the branded buses. I think the idea will be to have the majority of stock compliant which will eventually turn into all buses compliant.

I imagine we’ll see more buses come from various parts of the network to try and speed the process up. Hopefully if the E300s are planned to go elsewhere Glasgow will gain deckers which are much needed.

Thinking more of older non LEZ compliant vehicles at Dumbarton and Blantyre. They have sufficient routes that don’t need LEZ compliance and perhaps cant sustain the depreciation of newer vehicles.

Also, that the One might be due some upgrade to release e300s? Now this is speculation!!

 

[PaulMc7]

Would have been interesting if the 2 and 3 were never branded and new buses were brought in to upgrade the 1s, 2 and 3. Would have freed up a fair load of buses to cascade older vehicles from the fleet

 

[tbtc]

What cross-Silverburn traffic is there actually on the 3? (given that Pollock passengers have a much faster journey into the city centre on the X8)

I'm not convinced with the idea that every service needs to run directly past a bus garage/ bothy for driver changes - but if you accept that the 3 is too long (four and a half hour round trip) then I suppose one option would be to switch termini with the 7 (which is more like a two and a half hour round trip), so by turning them into a Drumchapel -Rutherglen service and a Summerston - Govan service you'd at least make them services of broadly similar durations (given how unreliable the long 3 can get)?

 

[PaulMc7]

What cross-Silverburn traffic is there actually on the 3? (given that Pollock passengers have a much faster journey into the city centre on the X8)

I'm not convinced with the idea that every service needs to run directly past a bus garage/ bothy for driver changes - but if you accept that the 3 is too long (four and a half hour round trip) then I suppose one option would be to switch termini with the 7 (which is more like a two and a half hour round trip), so by turning them into a Drumchapel -Rutherglen service and a Summerston - Govan service you'd at least make them services of broadly similar durations (given how unreliable the long 3 can get)?

I've used the 3 by Silverburn a few times but not many others have most of the time from my experience. Also worth noting with the X8 that it runs with the 3 anyway up to the road before Leverndale Hospital beforehand too plus if you're going further up from there from the City Centre then you're quicker to get a 9/9A to Cardonald then a 3 downwards or if you're going further up Cardonald or into Govan then the 9/9A then a 3 or 34 would still be quicker.

The 3 and 7/7A switching over would work to be honest in that sense. Ideally I think all routes should be 90 mins or less in Glasgow given the major issues with congestion but in some cases the longest routes are tough to split.

For example, the 90 works in one direction at Parkhead coming from Partick but it wouldn't split properly coming from Braehead there because a lot of people get off at the shopping centre at Duke Street and after that there's not really a place to turn around.

Also think it's worth trying to split things into a variation of routes across the city centre so areas with multiple options do different things in different directions. For example, the 4/4A and the 6 run close to each from Hillhead all the way to Clarkston so one tends to take passengers away from the other. You could walk from one of those routes onto the other pretty quickly in most of the route that they serve.

 

[BradK2017]

What about cutting the 3 to Silverburn & Extending the 10 to Govan? Within Drumchapel would a route swap between 3 & 6A work also (So Route 3 terminates at Kinfauns Drive Via Linkwood Dr & Route 6A goes to the Rail Stn Via Kinfauns Drive) ?

This would make Route 3 a shorter route to handle,plus as Route 10 runs every 15 Mins instead of 10,will reduce the overall PVR than currently

 

[PaulMc7]

What about cutting the 3 to Silverburn & Extending the 10 to Govan? Within Drumchapel would a route swap between 3 & 6A work also (So Route 3 terminates at Kinfauns Drive Via Linkwood Dr & Route 6A goes to the Rail Stn Via Kinfauns Drive) ?

This would make Route 3 a shorter route to handle,plus as Route 10 runs every 15 Mins instead of 10,will reduce the overall PVR than currently

Would keep the 3 and 6A as they are in Drumchapel to be fair especially as the M60 also trickles around parts of both routes too. Problem with extending the 10 is that it would then probably compete even more with the 9/9A as those to Cardonald from the City Centre then a 10 either way would be considerably quicker so it's a profitability risk to the 10. If Shawlands was laid out more effectively then a 3 and 34/34A switchover while both going to Govan would balance the route length out but on top of that the branding on the 3 and 34/34A then goes to waste too

 

[route101]

Silverburn would be the easiest place to have a break plus it's straightforward enough to get drivers to and from. I know there's more to it hence the idea in the first place.

How would you go about it?

How many people are making through journeys from Govan to Silverburn section onto the Silverburn to City section?

 

[PaulMc7]

How many people are making through journeys from Govan to Silverburn section onto the Silverburn to City section?

From what I've seen, not many either. Silverburn seems to be where the majority have departed anytime I've been on a 3 either way

 

[LT02 NVV]

The 3 and the 9 and 9a should be the 9 and 9a.

9 Drumchapel to Braehead
9a Drumchapel to Govan

 

[route101]

The 3 and the 9 and 9a should be the 9 and 9a.

9 Drumchapel to Braehead
9a Drumchapel to Govan

Dont think thats a good idea as it will confuse people as the 9 and 9A go different routes.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The 3 and the 9 and 9a should be the 9 and 9a.

9 Drumchapel to Braehead
9a Drumchapel to Govan

Your reasoning for that idea is?

What would the 9/9A become?

 

[Arriva Fan]

The 9A should be the 10, and the 10 the 56.

 

[route101]

I think the 6A should be remumbered,6A implies it would be a East Kilbride to Drumchapel service.

 

[PaulMc7]

Still find it really weird how the 6A was the result of the Drumchapel to Greenhills route from the 20 being split with the 21 now a thing and the 41 being split yet the East Kilbride to Mountblow route was never split. Even before Simplicity the 66 was always just as horrendous for reliability so surely splitting both makes more sense?

I do feel like services had to be split but I feel like for reliability purposes a few more probably could have been split not necessarily just because of the city centre either.

The 3, 6, 8, 60/60A, 90, 201 etc.

I also feel like you could do something different with the 1s too in order to help reliability there.

1/1A-City Centre to Dumbarton High Street every 20 mins each

Local services to Balloch via 1/1A routes every 30 mins. Could even use the 208 to be the Helensburgh replacement one by extending it.

Would also allow a better timetable balance with the 1C/1D so there's a 1 every 5 mins instead of the daft 4-6 min pattern that there currently is then 8-6-6 min pattern once the 1C breaks away from the rest at Kingsway

 

[adrock1976]

Still find it really weird how the 6A was the result of the Drumchapel to Greenhills route from the 20 being split with the 21 now a thing and the 41 being split yet the East Kilbride to Mountblow route was never split. Even before Simplicity the 66 was always just as horrendous for reliability so surely splitting both makes more sense?

I do feel like services had to be split but I feel like for reliability purposes a few more probably could have been split not necessarily just because of the city centre either.

The 3, 6, 8, 60/60A, 90, 201 etc.

I also feel like you could do something different with the 1s too in order to help reliability there.

1/1A-City Centre to Dumbarton High Street every 20 mins each

Local services to Balloch via 1/1A routes every 30 mins. Could even use the 208 to be the Helensburgh replacement one by extending it.

Would also allow a better timetable balance with the 1C/1D so there's a 1 every 5 mins instead of the daft 4-6 min pattern that there currently is then 8-6-6 min pattern once the 1C breaks away from the rest at Kingsway

Regarding the 66/6 split, I did think that there could be an overlapping section if one ran Mountblow [sic] - Clydebank - Dumbarton Road - Kingsway - Anniesland Cross - Great Western Road - Queen Street Stn - Victoria Bridge - Victoria Road - Victoria Infirmary - Cathcart Road to Clarkson Toll, with the other section running Calderwood - St Leonards - East Kilbride TC - The Murray - Hairmyres Hospital - A726 to Clarkson Toll - Cathcart Road - Victoria Infirmary - Vic Road - Vic Bridge - Queen Street Stn - Great Western Road to Anniesland Cross.

This would make the overlapping section along a common route between Anniesland Cross and Clarkson Toll.

 

[PaulMc7]

Regarding the 66/6 split, I did think that there could be an overlapping section if one ran Mountblow [sic] - Clydebank - Dumbarton Road - Kingsway - Anniesland Cross - Great Western Road - Queen Street Stn - Victoria Bridge - Victoria Road - Victoria Infirmary - Cathcart Road to Clarkson Toll, with the other section running Calderwood - St Leonards - East Kilbride TC - The Murray - Hairmyres Hospital - A726 to Clarkson Toll - Cathcart Road - Victoria Infirmary - Vic Road - Vic Bridge - Queen Street Stn - Great Western Road to Anniesland Cross.

This would make the overlapping section along a common route between Anniesland Cross and Clarkson Toll.

Considering what I've seen of the 6 in recent times as it's one of my local buses that could definitely work even if the frequency of each was brought down to every 15 mins. Demand along Great Western Road isn't always great to be fair. I've been on 6/6As that haven't even been full at peaks even for single deckers. It's such a weird one. Do think it's an idea that could be considered if the financial struggles for the Subway continue

 

[route101]

I reckon the 6 will get split some day . Great Western road is horrendous, more bus priority along there? I think most people use subway or walk to town .

I also reckon the 4 may be split, I reckon it will just end up being City to Eaglesham.

 

[PaulMc7]

I reckon the 6 will get split some day . Great Western road is horrendous, more bus priority along there? I think most people use subway or walk to town .

I also reckon the 4 may be split, I reckon it will just end up being City to Eaglesham.

The problem with Great Western Road is that the bus lanes aren't active all day and only at peaks. Always been a problem to be fair and then the traffic lights barely stay green for long enough for enough vehicles to get through to keep traffic moving. The 6A will probably be more affected once we get closer to normality as there is now a cycle lane set up most of the way along Blairdardie.

Depending on demand they now know a set up to serve most of Mearns and still route into Eaglesham works so I think the 4 could go but the 4A stays but with the route operated earlier in the pandemic. Would be a nightmare for anyone that needed Williamwood for school though

 

[route101]

The problem with Great Western Road is that the bus lanes aren't active all day and only at peaks. Always been a problem to be fair and then the traffic lights barely stay green for long enough for enough vehicles to get through to keep traffic moving. The 6A will probably be more affected once we get closer to normality as there is now a cycle lane set up most of the way along Blairdardie.

Depending on demand they now know a set up to serve most of Mearns and still route into Eaglesham works so I think the 4 could go but the 4A stays but with the route operated earlier in the pandemic. Would be a nightmare for anyone that needed Williamwood for school though

Yes, they done that on the 4 nearly every year when the road gets resurfaced. I used the 4 from Clarkston to Mearns yesterday, pretty quiet now.

 

[PaulMc7]

Yes, they done that on the 4 nearly every year when the road gets resurfaced. I used the 4 from Clarkston to Mearns yesterday, pretty quiet now.

Yeah the demand has gone massively compared to years ago. Can understand it though considering it serves some fairly well off areas plus from the west end to Clarkston the 6 is always fairly near it so ifs just as easy to get a 6 and walk. It's only really Hyndland/Broomhill and then beyond Clarkston to Newton Mearns/Eaglesham where the 4/4A are on their own fully with nothing too close that goes a similar way. The 38 from Newton Mearns to the City Centre is definitely preferable over the 4 though

 

[route101]

Yeah the demand has gone massively compared to years ago. Can understand it though considering it serves some fairly well off areas plus from the west end to Clarkston the 6 is always fairly near it so ifs just as easy to get a 6 and walk. It's only really Hyndland/Broomhill and then beyond Clarkston to Newton Mearns/Eaglesham where the 4/4A are on their own fully with nothing too close that goes a similar way. The 38 from Newton Mearns to the City Centre is definitely preferable over the 4 though

The 38 is just one straight road all the way to town, must be quicker than the first 4. Plus no students taking bus to Glasgow University, I've noticed that decline over last ten years.

 

[PaulMc7]

The 38 is just one straight road all the way to town, must be quicker than the first 4. Plus no students taking bus to Glasgow University, I've noticed that decline over last ten years.

Yeah walking/cycling or the subway for most students these days there. Also helped by more student accommodation being around Glasgow Uni too. It's the same for the 8 and 90 being quieter at times too. Most students just walk from Murano Street/Bilsland Drive and down Queen Margaret Drive so it's a big potential market that's often missed out on

 

[route101]

Can't imagine many students in Glasgow area are staying in halls , expensive though no doubt paid by parents if they are.

Stagecoach had a short-lived routes G2 and G2 that went up to Maryhill.
I think rail has taken a lot of the passenger's off the buses.

 

[tbtc]

I reckon the 6 will get split some day . Great Western road is horrendous, more bus priority along there? I think most people use subway or walk to town .

I also reckon the 4 may be split, I reckon it will just end up being City to Eaglesham.

Seems odd that, of the three frequent services from Mount Florida into the City Centre, the two corridors that have come from far away (the 4 from Newton Mearns/ Eaglesham, the 6 from East Kilbride) both continue cross city towards the University and beyond, whilst the service that has only started within the traditional city boundaries (the 5 from Castlemilk) terminates just a stone's throw after crossing the Clyde, not even getting north of Argyle Street - i.e. the one that's come the shortest distance from the south goes the shortest distance to the north.

I appreciate that there are some long established cross city links (especially to the University or to hospitals) that would be politically hard to entirely scrap but it seems like First are happy having some routes fairly short (e.g. the 5 has a round trip of about eighty minutes) whilst other routes become unreliable due to their length (e.g. the 6 has a round trip of around four and a half hours - so you could do a City - Castlemilk - City hurl on a 5 in around the same time as a 6 would take to get from the city centre just to Clydebank/ East Kilbride without it turning around to head back towards the city centre.

Swapping the 5 and 6 would retain a link from the southside to the University area and from Clydebank/ Anniesland to the Victoria Hospital, with the added bonus of making both services more reliable, since passengers wanting to make a local journey in East Kilbride wouldn't be at the mercy of what traffic was like on the Great Western Road almost two hours ago.