Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[samuelmorris]

Could someone remind me of the current diagram for 720s? Is it operating today? I'm in town and it'd be nice to see them at least.

Cheers

 

[Railperf]

The Mon to Fri introductory diagram that has featured 720's so far is listed here: subject to unit / driver availability: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-720-diagrams.211751/

 

[JonathanH]

Could someone remind me of the current diagram for 720s? Is it operating today? I'm in town and it'd be nice to see them at least.

Cheers

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-introduction.158396/page-27#post-4887202

This looks like today's planned diagram (copied from another forum)

5K27 0705 Southend Victoria Dsn to Southend Victoria
1K27 0723 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street
5K49 0833 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria
2K49 1010 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street
5V28 1124 London Liverpool Street to Ilford E.M.U.D.

with a pair of 720s operating the STP working shown starting 5K85 later.

5K85 1440 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Southend Victoria
1K85 1610 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street
1K78 1725 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria
1K19 1850 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street
2K06 2013 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria
5K16 2324 Southend Victoria to Southend Victoria Dsn

It looks like it probably does 1K45 2130 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street and 5K45 2304 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria Dss this week instead of waiting at Southend Victoria.

 

[samuelmorris]

Many thanks, doesn't look like that'll work out for me, I spotted presumably this pairing in the depot alongside some Northern 321/322s on my way in. I'll probably wait until there's an all day diagram, but thanks anyway

 

[Railperf]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-introduction.158396/page-27#post-4887202

It looks like it probably does 1K45 2130 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street and 5K45 2304 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria Dss this week instead of waiting at Southend Victoria.

Thanks for the update

Many thanks, doesn't look like that'll work out for me, I spotted presumably this pairing in the depot alongside some Northern 321/322s on my way in. I'll probably wait until there's an all day diagram, but thanks anyway

Hopefully a second diagram coming in mid December. Saturday is the only 'all day' diagram - again subject to the usual availability of drivers and/or serviceable units.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah no worries, I can wait. No rush to travel on what will probably become the mainstay of this area for decades to come!

 

[Railperf]

Yeah no worries, I can wait. No rush to travel on what will probably become the mainstay of this area for decades to come!

I do travel to Southend frequently - so better to sit on these than clapped out and dirty (Renatus excepted) 321s'

 

[samuelmorris]

Amusingly, I’ll probably end up using Anglia services more when crossrail finally opens as the 12tph will make it more viable to do the loop-around via Shenfield. As it is, I only tend to go that way on my return journey when, because travelling from Liverpool Street I can both see what stock is being used (especially important in summer to avoid legacy 321s and 315s) and also work out whether changing at Shenfield yields any time benefit or not. It doesn’t always work out if the GA service is delayed, but no point taking the risk if you know it won’t save any time or make the travelling experience any nicer!

I’ve only been to London a handful of times since lockdown for work purposes, and got quite lucky last month with getting a 321/9 and two of the 322s without even really trying. The 321/9 is definitely new to me, the 322s might be, but it’s good to have them anyway as I certainly wasn’t documenting units back when they were last down here. 485 is the only one I remember for sure.

I’m sure there’ll be plenty of opportunities in the future to do every single 720, all 133 of them! Lol

it only took me 2 years of daily commuting both ways to get all 74 357s, now I work from home by default, but I’ll get there one day!

Edit: I guess it wasn't them at Ilford, 537/538 pulled into Liverpool Street as I was leaving, very much with the 'testing' banners still up everywhere inside, and the units I spotted at Ilford earlier had gone.

 

[delticdave]

Definitely smoother, quieter, cleaner and brighter than a non Renatus 321. And no jerky braking either.

That run highlighted how poorly things are pathed / timetabled on a Sunday despite far fewer trains running on the network. The xx.54 from Southend has to come into Shenfield on caution signals as 1Pxx (from Norwich comes sailing through on the up main. It then crawls along on yellows until 1PXX is enough blocks ahead to see clear signals. But despite the additional stop at Romford, still manages to run into yellows again and almost come to a stand at Maryland because 1Pxx has still not cleared Stratford P9.
The 720's gain a few seconds over the 321's due to faster acceleration, but in this case it is useless because the trains are pathed too closely together, and the Shenfield to Stratford timing is pretty slack - meaning drivers often pottering along at 70mph instead of 90!

I can understand all the above, but why can't the up Southend train be routed into the up loop platform (No. 1?) instead?

 

[Railperf]

I can understand all the above, but why can't the up Southend train be routed into the up loop platform (No. 1?) instead?

It is routed into P1 with either a red or single yellow signal at the end of the platform. Hence a slow approach and stop. And a cautious start.

 

[Class 170101]

I can understand all the above, but why can't the up Southend train be routed into the up loop platform (No. 1?) instead?

Sometimes the platform and the Up Loop combined hold a Class 4 / 6 Freight so Platform 2 is used.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Definitely smoother, quieter, cleaner and brighter than a non Renatus 321. And no jerky braking either.

That run highlighted how poorly things are pathed / timetabled on a Sunday despite far fewer trains running on the network. The xx.54 from Southend has to come into Shenfield on caution signals as 1Pxx (from Norwich comes sailing through on the up main. It then crawls along on yellows until 1PXX is enough blocks ahead to see clear signals. But despite the additional stop at Romford, still manages to run into yellows again and almost come to a stand at Maryland because 1Pxx has still not cleared Stratford P9.
The 720's gain a few seconds over the 321's due to faster acceleration, but in this case it is useless because the trains are pathed too closely together, and the Shenfield to Stratford timing is pretty slack - meaning drivers often pottering along at 70mph instead of 90!

My best guess is that Anglia will not be changing much to do with pathing until all the old units have gone. Then they wil be able to guarantee consistent performance of all the trains - (almost) all formed of 720s and 745s.

 

[Alfie1014]

My best guess is that Anglia will not be changing much to do with pathing until all the old units have gone. Then they wil be able to guarantee consistent performance of all the trains - (almost) all formed of 720s and 745s.

Well GA are currently consulting on the December 2021 timetable for the GEML and branches. https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tra...astern-mainline-dec-21-timetable-consultation but don't get too excited for all Essex stations other than Manningtree they are offering, "Average 1-minute quicker journey times throughout the day".

Had my first trip out since before the start of the second lockdown this week and caught the 16:10 from Southend Vic (720715/7). Mixed reaction to them, they are certainly brighter and airy, the seats are fine, firm but better padded than many recent 'ironing boards!' I just happened to sit for much of the journey in an airline seat with the bulge seatback in front. I'm no clearer in coming to a conclusion on its purpose than others, it is covered in a leatherette material but seems rather odd never the less! I was expecting an amazing ride, but found them to be better than some but still had that stiff germanic Bombardier shuffle at times but will reserve opinion until ive had a blast at the 'ton' down the main line on one. I do wonder whether vehicle length may play a role? Smooth and quiet as you would expect with a modern train, but that does allow (Pax) noise from down the train to be more apparent. The seatback tables are fine for tablets or phones but would struggle to fit a laptop. The roof mounted CIS screens do seem rather low, I didn't notice this until a young chap who must have been 6ft 2-3in was ducking as he went under them! The non accessible toilet after somebody used it went into overdrive and continually flushed until it went out of service! (I didn't investigate to see what was going on though?).

I was less keen on the narrow aisles which many have to turn sideways to get through, this with the combination of most of the luggage space being in overhead racks will possibly encourage pax to leave large items in the vestibules and with the (useless) tip-up seats in these may encourage pax to sit with their luggage, buggys etc. there? I noticed that most of the priority seating had no or very limited window views and that there appeared to be no rubbish bins what so ever, so as you can guess the floor became the resting place for rubbish on what was a fairly quiet train that mostly was conveying students back from the colleges in Southend. GA will have to maintain a high level of turn round cleans to keep these trains in an acceptable state.

Overall very mixed impression and whilst they may be suited to high peak shorter distance use my view that they aren't well suited to longer distance use (over an hour) and that they will be a massive over provision on the branch lines (525 seats) on trains that for much of the day are rarely unlikely to convey more than 100-150 passengers. I do wonder when they were re-negotiating the order for 22 x 10 car to 44 x 5 car, they should have gone for 20-25 of them being 3 cars (with the option to extend to 5 car during the franchise term) which would have suited the branches (and possibly some WA services too) and would have avoided some of the expensive infrastructure works that are now required to fit 5/10 car operation. I know this would have resulted in two types of train length but they were originally going to have that with 5s and 10s. It would have also allowed some variety in peak formations 5/6/8/9/10 rather than 5 or 10.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not seeing any substantial changes there outside of the journey time improvements. The only real difference seems to be the additional off-peak Ipswich service and the corresponding loss of direct services to Braintree off-peak. One thing I do notice, the proposed 4tph to Southend never materialised, and further, peak service frequency has been scaled back from the current 6tph down to "between 3 and 5". I suppose further discussion is outside the remit of this thread, but happy for this discussion to be moved.

 

[KC1]

Error

 

[Bletchleyite]

Overall very mixed impression and whilst they may be suited to high peak shorter distance use my view that they aren't well suited to longer distance use (over an hour) and that they will be a massive over provision on the branch lines (525 seats) on trains that for much of the day are rarely unlikely to convey more than 100-150 passengers.

What is a big shame to me is that this whole COVID thing happened too late for them to change the order. I think LNR's 2+2 seated version of the same thing promises to be really, really nice (basically the same thing as a 350/1 but from another manufacturer, and adding the "IC feel" that the very long centre section gives over a 20m unit), so perhaps with commuter volumes likely to reduce a 2+2 layout with tables would have been better? Obviously too late for a contract variation, but I do wonder if LNR will consider this, or if that's also too late?

 

[samuelmorris]

What is a big shame to me is that this whole COVID thing happened too late for them to change the order. I think LNR's 2+2 seated version of the same thing promises to be really, really nice (basically the same thing as a 350/1 but from another manufacturer, and adding the "IC feel" that the very long centre section gives over a 20m unit), so perhaps with commuter volumes likely to reduce a 2+2 layout with tables would have been better? Obviously too late for a contract variation, but I do wonder if LNR will consider this, or if that's also too late?

The problem is, I'm not really convinced the effects from the pandemic on demand will last long enough until mid-life refurbishment of a new fleet. Some routes on the railway are extremely busy and had been really in dire need of extra capacity before covid hit. While the current situation will massively supress demand, even if 80% of it comes back, replacing 2+3 commuter EMUs in the form of 317s, 321s of 360s, with 2+2 express style units is still going to be a decrease in capacity even with through-gangways, especially now the whole fleet is 5-car unit pairs rather than one single unit, and you'd soon end up with people standing again, and after a few years as demand slowly increases, you'd end up with things worse than ever. I know interiors can be changed after the fact, but I'm not sure I'd consider the risk of knowingly under-specifying stock capacity in the hope that by the time a refit is due you can change it back is necessarily wise. If there were only room for more trains per hour on the route, then sure go for it, I'd much rather 2+2 with armrests etc. on my local line, but I can't honestly tell you I think it's the best idea, even if I'd much prefer to ride on it, assuming I got a seat!

 

[Taylorgb19]

I wonder when greater anglia get enough reviews on the 720s seating if c2c will have the same or different seating after hearing the reviews on the seats

 

[southern442]

I wonder when greater anglia get enough reviews on the 720s seating if c2c will have the same or different seating after hearing the reviews on the seats

I thought the general consensus was that the seats aren't that bad?

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought the general consensus was that the seats aren't that bad?

That's the point I think - will c2c follow suit with Kiel seats or use the default ironing boards.

 

[RailWonderer]

I thought the general consensus was that the seats aren't that bad?

The seats themselves are fine comfortwise for the distances most people will travel on them for but the configuration of 3+2 is inappropriate. Given the lack of doors between coaches was meant to encourage passengers to spread throughout the train, the aisles are too narrow and discourage just that. A 2+2 layout would have been far easier for walking through aisles and would have provided more standing room. The 3+2 is a major disappointment and if you ask me no UK trains with our loading gauge should have 3+2 seating. Kill it with fire is the consensus on 3+2.

 

[RealTrains07]

The seats themselves are fine comfortwise for the distances most people will travel on them for but the configuration of 3+2 is inappropriate. Given the lack of doors between coaches was meant to encourage passengers to spread throughout the train, the aisles are too narrow and discourage just that. A 2+2 layout would have been far easier for walking through aisles and would have provided more standing room. The 3+2 is a major disappointment and if you ask me no UK trains with our loading gauge should have 3+2 seating. Kill it with fire is the consensus on 3+2.

But you have to remember that the 720s work on heavy commuter routes and need the seating capacity because of the amount of people they will carry.
2+2 is the preferable option, yes but GA had to be realistic at the time with the 720s. Its the same as LNR with the 730/1s. 3+2 is usually preferable for heavy commuter routes. Taking into account the interiors of the trains the 720s are replacing as well.

 

[Cletus]

I have on my personal listings numbers 720101 to 720122. But I believe these have been superseded by 720590 to 720633?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd much rather 2+2 with armrests etc. on my local line, but I can't honestly tell you I think it's the best idea, even if I'd much prefer to ride on it, assuming I got a seat!

While 350/2s aren't exactly rubbish, the general view on the south WCML is in favour of the 2+2 layout even where it results in a bit more standing, and indeed use of the middle seat isn't 100% - people will often choose to stand instead of squash in.

 

[samuelmorris]

I have on my personal listings numbers 720101 to 720122. But I believe these have been superseded by 720590 to 720633?

I don't think that's been decided yet, going into the 6xx range would clash with the 10-car c2c units, supposedly 720/6, but since they've not been built yet, plenty of time to reclassify those. Now that the GA 720s are all 5-car, using a different class number as originally intended would make more sense. Logic would suggest going perhaps with 721 instead, but this is privatisation era TOPS, so that's the least likely scenario!

 

[Cletus]

I don't think that's been decided yet, going into the 6xx range would clash with the 10-car c2c units, supposedly 720/6, but since they've not been built yet, plenty of time to reclassify those. Now that the GA 720s are all 5-car, using a different class number as originally intended would make more sense. Logic would suggest going perhaps with 721 instead, but this is privatisation era TOPS, so that's the least likely scenario!

Thanks for that. Even less clear than I thought

 

[St. Paddy]

I have on my personal listings numbers 720101 to 720122. But I believe these have been superseded by 720590 to 720633?

It’s been announced as 720101-144

 

[The_Train]

It’s been announced as 720101-144

Would you happen to have a source for that please?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would you happen to have a source for that please?

Richard Clinnick (RAIL Magazine) has confirmed it.

 

[St. Paddy]

Would you happen to have a source for that please?

Several railway magazines have reported it, Today’s Railway UK is the one I saw