Network Rail draws up list of ‘no regret’ electrification schemes - New Civil Engineer

[Philip Phlopp]

It would certainly add yet another layer to the variety of technologies on show!
You might get away with just wiring the bays for Birmingham services, but I guess NR would want to wire the lot for through services, meaning wholesale resignalling.

I wonder if we could fit the track sectioning equipment into the signal box...

 

[The Planner]

Realistically, any Shrewsbury wiring would almost certainly trigger resignalling.

In which case, Oxley Shrewsbury is good while off then.

 

[MarkyT]

In which case, Oxley Shrewsbury is good while off then.

Would be a reasonable candidate for partial electrification to (say) Wellington, adding some batteries to the EMUs used for Shrewsbury terminators. Bi/tri modes for the Aberystwyths.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Here in Oxfordshire the sight of dozens of bases and a few masts all the way from Didcot East Jn to Kennington Jn is a daily reminder of the aborted Oxford electrification. I know it's awaiting Oxford Station remodelling, whenever that may be, but in the meantime it could at least be extended to Hinksey North.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would be a reasonable candidate for partial electrification to (say) Wellington, adding some batteries to the EMUs used for Shrewsbury terminators. Bi/tri modes for the Aberystwyths.

That would have the advantage of something suitable for the Cambrian being ordered, as 2-car Class 197s aren't.

 

[Irascible]

Most people do not seemed to have recognised the snag. Once the treasury sees the total cost of the proposals, it will tell DfT that it costs too much, and instruct it to spread the work over a lot more years. So more delays, postponements (a.k.a. cancellations) & half-completed schemes until the next panic about climate change.

Lots of small schemes spread over time does at least keep a trained & experienced ( if probably undersized and overworked ) wiring team working constantly, rather than cancelling everything & them all disappearing ( again! ). Maybe it's the usual "ask for twice as much & get 75% of what we really want" scheme.

 

[59CosG95]

Here in Oxfordshire the sight of dozens of bases and a few masts all the way from Didcot East Jn to Kennington Jn is a daily reminder of the aborted Oxford electrification. I know it's awaiting Oxford Station remodelling, whenever that may be, but in the meantime it could at least be extended to Hinksey North.

The resignalling was the main block, but you raise a good point re Oxford Station's remodelling - we're yet to see whether it'll be a reconfigured platform layout in addition to a new building. IIRC there's some vacillation on whether to quad-track Didcot to Oxford too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here in Oxfordshire the sight of dozens of bases and a few masts all the way from Didcot East Jn to Kennington Jn is a daily reminder of the aborted Oxford electrification. I know it's awaiting Oxford Station remodelling, whenever that may be, but in the meantime it could at least be extended to Hinksey North.

It isn’t awaiting Oxford station remodelling now, the layout installed in 2018 is in the final state, it only requires additions for future platforms, ie the layout is already known, so masts etc can allow for it. Didcot to Oxford is a different type of problem.

 

[mr_jrt]

Hopefully the Southern infills are among them.


Very Interesting point but I cant see HGVs becoming electric any time soon.

You mean like this?

Semi | Tesla United Kingdom

Tesla Semi is a fully electric semi truck with active safety features, massive range and a spacious interior designed for maximum visibility.

www.tesla.com

 

[YorksLad12]

There's several other Star Wars characters who it would be interesting to see who they'd be.

Jubba the Hut?
Princess Leia?
R2D2?
Chewbacca?

I wonder if there's any on here who like to put themselves forward for roles for the good guys? @baldrick who do you fancy being?

Perhaps out friends at Blackpool North think they are Jedi?

Passengers: "We want access to the platform!"
Staff: (waves hand) "You do not want to access the platform."
Passengers: "We do not want to access the platform!"

On-topic: I look forward to dissecting the list with y'all when it comes out, but I suspect "no regret" will be open to interpretation.

 

[Bald Rick]

For years, NR insisted that the MML was its top priority, with a negative BCR (ie it cost more long term not to electrify).

Pedantic point, it wasn’t a negative BCR*.

The B in BCR fir transport projects counts all non cash benefits, plus cash benefits that accrue outside the government transport budget.

The C covers the net cost to the transport budget.


The MML was a ‘financially positive’ case, ie net financial cost to Government was a net benefit. This means that the cost of the work is set to zero, which makes the BCR infinity.

A negative BCR occurs where the net benefits of the scheme are negative, with a cost t9 the transport benefit of something above £1. It does happen.

 

[Western Sunset]

You are Chris Grayling and I claim my five pounds.

I'm sure he's very busy at the moment, with his few hours a week six-figure sum, helping sort out the Port of Felixstowe.....

 

[hwl]

Actually the life expectancy of wind farms is 30 years, but replacing our wind farms roughly 3 times a century is far better than extracting coal, gas and oil from the ground. A quick search of “the life expectancy of a wind farm/power station” reveals that a nuclear power plant has a shelf life of 20-40 years. Coal power plants have a shelf life of 30 years, but a design life of 40-50 years, while many plants in the US that have recently retired are over 40 years old.

So if the coal power plants are our yardstick, we will probably see many countries operating their wind farms a lot longer than 30 years before they are decommissioned. That doesn’t mean they would have built new wind farms with increased efficiency and making use of improved technologies in that time.

I got a mail from the US department of energy this morning on the licensing extension process for the 60-80 year operating period. 8 US plants have already been licensed for operation from 40-60 years with many more to come soon.
We managed to build a lot of dubious reactor designs in the UK, but Sizewell B will probably be operating for a very long time compared to the others.

I'd expect most of the medium - large wind turbines to operate for longer than 30 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd expect most of the medium - large wind turbines to operate for longer than 30 years.

Agreed, and I’d expect the turbines to be replaced, when their time is up, without having to build new foundations, or the cabling infrastructure etc.

 

[hwl]

Agreed, and I’d expect the turbines to be replaced, when their time is up, without having to build new foundations, or the cabling infrastructure etc.

Agreed and I expect the smaller ones in this category to be up for replacement first with the larger ones really sweated.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed and I expect the smaller ones in this category to be up for replacement first with the larger ones really sweated.

I’m sure I read somewhere that some of the more recent offshore turbines have foundations that can deal with bigger turbines; new transition piece, bigger tower, bigger turbine. And it can be all done by taking one or two offline at a time. Try taking 2% of a coal fired plant offline!

 

[hwl]

I’m sure I read somewhere that some of the more recent offshore turbines have foundations that can deal with bigger turbines; new transition piece, bigger tower, bigger turbine. And it can be all done by taking one or two offline at a time. Try taking 2% of a coal fired plant offline!

That is my understanding too...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Agreed and I expect the smaller ones in this category to be up for replacement first with the larger ones really sweated.

Quite possible they'll be re-manufactured or refurbished in some way - the question about what to do with them at the end of their lives is already being researched. I came across an article (which now eludes me, of course) in something like Energy Voice about the project. There was GRP fishing boats and other similar GRP waste streams involved too, but was primarily focused on wind turbines.

 

[21C101]

You mean like this?

Semi | Tesla United Kingdom

Tesla Semi is a fully electric semi truck with active safety features, massive range and a spacious interior designed for maximum visibility.

www.tesla.com

There is along way to go before they are viable:

"One estimate for the battery weight, at 11,800 kg, was estimated to account for one third of the payload, and would increase the capital cost of the truck to about double that of an equivalent diesel"

Tesla Semi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea of "trolley lorries" on the motorway network is probably a more viable option. Then you only need batteries for the local stretch.

 

[MarkyT]

The idea of "trolley lorries" on the motorway network is probably a more viable option. Then you only need batteries for the local stretch.

Or, and here's a really crazy idea, you could put the trailers or boxes on some kind of steel wheeled trolley that runs on a much lower friction guideway system, join up to a half mile's length of them together by some kind of magical mechanical coupling device and haul them with one power unit and a single operator, then just require local road haulage for the first and last few miles which shouldn't require such huge batteries in the tractor. Now what do you think we might call this newfangled device?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Or, and here's a really crazy idea, you could put the trailers or boxes on some kind of steel wheeled trolley that runs on a much lower friction guideway system, join up to a half mile's length of them together by some kind of magical mechanical coupling device and haul them with one power unit and a single operator, then just require local road haulage for the first and last few miles which shouldn't require such huge batteries in the tractor. Now what do you think we might call this newfangled device?

Hyperloop

 

[The Ham]

Hyperloop

That's Hype until we loop back to what we had before, i.e. just electric cars and put them in tunnels.

It's almost as if Musk saw the Simpsons episode when Homer joins the stone cutters and can drive his car in a private tunnel. (In fairly sure that we meant as a crazy thing which wouldn't happen, rather than a source of inspiration, but what do I know I only design roads for a living).

 

[Greybeard33]

Or, and here's a really crazy idea, you could put the trailers or boxes on some kind of steel wheeled trolley that runs on a much lower friction guideway system, join up to a half mile's length of them together by some kind of magical mechanical coupling device and haul them with one power unit and a single operator, then just require local road haulage for the first and last few miles which shouldn't require such huge batteries in the tractor. Now what do you think we might call this newfangled device?

A pick-up goods train? Was there not some good reason why they were out-competed by lorries?

 

[The Ham]

A pick-up goods train? Was there not some good reason why they were out-competed by lorries?

Yes, but if you've got to keep stopping to charge your battery that may well change the economics of it for some movement of some stuff.

It would certainly make ship to regional hub or Channel Tunnel to regional hub to then do the last (say) 100 miles by road much more attractive to do.

It's unlikely that we'll see much of a shift due to rail capacity issues (even if there wasn't it wouldn't likely be all that great, seven compared to rail use, an amount anyway).

 

[MarkyT]

A pick-up goods train? Was there not some good reason why they were out-competed by lorries?

I don't know where you're getting the impression I'm advocating a return to old-style general goods operations, although I think there could be some more en route joining and splitting of intermodal portions to make best use of paths and haulage capability. As far as transhipment is concerned, there must be opportunities to innovate using modern technology to reduce costs, particularly extra manpower, and delays, enabling more and possibly smaller terminals. Overall though I'm just saying that the best decarbonisation bang for buck must be to simply use rail more for the economic long hauls it is suitable for. There's plenty of long haul tonnage where the distance is theoretically suitable for rail, but for various structural and political reasons rail can't compete. Cross channel to Europe is a major example.

 

[Greybeard33]

^ Your previous post seemed to be suggesting that rail could offer a better alternative to the electrified motorway concept. But the key feature of the electrified motorway is that individual trucks could join or leave the road "train" at every junction, without delay to the others continuing through. To match that flexibility, a railway train would have to stop every few miles to attach and detach individual wagons, shunting the remaining portions to re-marshal the train.

 

[mr_jrt]

There is along way to go before they are viable:

"One estimate for the battery weight, at 11,800 kg, was estimated to account for one third of the payload, and would increase the capital cost of the truck to about double that of an equivalent diesel"

Tesla Semi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Given they were due into production in 2020 before COVID, and are now scheduled for production in 2021, suggests not as far to go as your quote suggests. That quote is taken from a third party analysis: "A 2017 theoretical analysis of electric semi trucks was completed by researchers from the Carnegie Mellon College of Engineering in mid-2017, ostensibly in response to Musk's description of Tesla's work on a "a heavy duty, long-range semi truck" at a talk in April 2017".

...so they haven't seen the vehicle and are speculating.

 

[59CosG95]

That's Hype until we loop back to what we had before, i.e. just electric cars and put them in tunnels.

It's almost as if Musk saw the Simpsons episode when Homer joins the stone cutters and can drive his car in a private tunnel. (In fairly sure that we meant as a crazy thing which wouldn't happen, rather than a source of inspiration, but what do I know I only design roads for a living).

"Who controls the British Crown,
Who keeps electrification down etc, etc."

 

[21C101]

Given they were due into production in 2020 before COVID, and are now scheduled for production in 2021, suggests not as far to go as your quote suggests. That quote is taken from a third party analysis: "A 2017 theoretical analysis of electric semi trucks was completed by researchers from the Carnegie Mellon College of Engineering in mid-2017, ostensibly in response to Musk's description of Tesla's work on a "a heavy duty, long-range semi truck" at a talk in April 2017".

...so they haven't seen the vehicle and are speculating.

Oh I've no doubt Tesla will release it soon enough. Whether it will be any more successful than the Sinclair C5 (for the various reasons given in Wikipedia) remains to be seen.