Network Rail draws up list of ‘no regret’ electrification schemes - New Civil Engineer

[Bald Rick]

Spoilsport...

To be fair, the list has changed a bit. There were some frankly silly proposals on the original list (many) months ago. Some of which often feature on these pages. No I’m not telling!

 

[martin2345uk]

Any ideas when and if the list is likely to be made public? I want to see if I might be driving electric loco's any day soon

 

[Bald Rick]

I want to see if I might be driving electric loco's any day soon

That surely depends on who you work for, and whether they have any electric locos, or are likely to buy some?

 

[Bevan Price]

Most people do not seemed to have recognised the snag. Once the treasury sees the total cost of the proposals, it will tell DfT that it costs too much, and instruct it to spread the work over a lot more years. So more delays, postponements (a.k.a. cancellations) & half-completed schemes until the next panic about climate change.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Most people do not seemed to have recognised the snag. Once the treasury sees the total cost of the proposals, it will tell DfT that it costs too much, and instruct it to spread the work over a lot more years. So more delays, postponements (a.k.a. cancellations) & half-completed schemes until the next panic about climate change.

The plan in this case is a series of electrification projects that will have a positive business case, not more rounded, integrated projects which lose some of the positive business case in return for enhanced social benefits. It's likely to be simple electrification, with little else added - few or no platform extensions, no station re-openings, no additional track etc. Just masts and wires, for the most part.

 

[mcmad]

The plan in this case is a series of electrification projects that will have a positive business case, not more rounded, integrated projects which lose some of the positive business case in return for enhanced social benefits. It's likely to be simple electrification, with little else added - few or no platform extensions, no station re-openings, no additional track etc. Just masts and wires, for the most part.

Which is fine if the underlying infrastructure is suitable and correctly sized for future needs. Trying to do even modest enhancements schemes after the wires are up just add many more £££ to the cost.

 

[The Ham]

To be fair, the list has changed a bit. There were some frankly silly proposals on the original list (many) months ago. Some of which often feature on these pages. No I’m not telling!

My spoilsport comment was in just, as I wouldn't expect someone with that knowledge to pass it on without it being in the public realm (not least as you've highlighted plans change as time passes and so you could give some hope that their local line is a serious contender when it's actually not for much hope).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

My spoilsport comment was in just, as I wouldn't expect someone with that knowledge to pass it on without it being in the public realm (not least as you've highlighted plans change as time passes and so you could give some hope that their local line is a serious contender when it's actually not for much hope).

There's always Hope...

 

[Bald Rick]

My spoilsport comment was in jest,

I know - my emoji was me being a little devil

There's always Hope...

We had A New Hope.

Unfortunately, followed by the MP&I Strikes Back.

Now, perhaps, Return of the JFDI?

And then The (electro-magnetic) Force Awakens...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I know - my emoji was me being a little devil



We had A New Hope.

Unfortunately, followed by the MP&I Strikes Back.

Now, perhaps, Return of the JFDI?

And then The (electro-magnetic) Force Awakens...

I definitely like the Return of the JFDI.

 

[Domh245]

We had A New Hope.

Unfortunately, followed by the MP&I Strikes Back.

Now, perhaps, Return of the JFDI?

And then The (electro-magnetic) Force Awakens...

Revenge of the Bath?

 

[tbtc]

I definitely like the Return of the JFDI.

It's a lovely one - @Bald Rick has a way with words!

I'm hopeful that there's a solution to the Solo platform at Dore - there's around twelve parsecs of single track that need sorting out.

Still, I'm glad that they electrified the Edinburgh - Glasgow line through Cumbernalderaan, so that's something.

 

[edwin_m]

They still have to get past the Death Star in Whitehall.

 

[Bald Rick]

They still have to get past the Death Star in Whitehall.

The Emperor’s Palpitating.

 

[DerekC]

Can't see Grant Shapps as Darth Vader, though - more like General Hux.

 

[Pete_uk]

So is this just another electrification reboot? How long will it be before things start moving?

 

[The Ham]

Can't see Grant Shapps as Darth Vader, though - more like General Hux.

There's several other Star Wars characters who it would be interesting to see who they'd be.

Jubba the Hut?
Princess Leia?
R2D2?
Chewbacca?

I wonder if there's any on here who like to put themselves forward for roles for the good guys? @baldrick who do you fancy being?

 

[Purple Orange]

Something that isnt often mentioned in the great race to decarbonise is that the majority of the products from the refining process are still going to be needed for many years (forever for some), such as Asphalt and oil based lubricants. One issue will be the millions of gallons of now useless petrol and diesel and what will be done with it all? In the olden days they dumped it straight into the sea! Maybe the geniuses leading the great race might want to look at a way to get rid of this now useless and worthless fuel oil. I dont know maybe a power station powered by Petrol would help.

The other problem is in 25 years all that renewable equipment is going to need to be replaced at great expense especially all those wind farms out at sea.

Anyways I digress, good news on the overheads going up none the less.

Actually the life expectancy of wind farms is 30 years, but replacing our wind farms roughly 3 times a century is far better than extracting coal, gas and oil from the ground. A quick search of “the life expectancy of a wind farm/power station” reveals that a nuclear power plant has a shelf life of 20-40 years. Coal power plants have a shelf life of 30 years, but a design life of 40-50 years, while many plants in the US that have recently retired are over 40 years old.

So if the coal power plants are our yardstick, we will probably see many countries operating their wind farms a lot longer than 30 years before they are decommissioned. That doesn’t mean they would have built new wind farms with increased efficiency and making use of improved technologies in that time.

 

[martin2345uk]

That surely depends on who you work for, and whether they have any electric locos, or are likely to buy some?

Well yes obviously but while the line into my base is not electrified I'm definitely not, regardless of how many leccy's we have haha

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any ideas when and if the list is likely to be made public? I want to see if I might be driving electric loco's any day soon

A Network Rail list of their view of the best business cases for electrification, and where there are quick wins, doesn't mean HMG will approve schemes in that order.
For years, NR insisted that the MML was its top priority, with a negative BCR (ie it cost more long term not to electrify).
The DfT then politically authorised the GW and NW schemes ahead of it and then discovered the business cases did not stack up.
(Crossrail authorisation played a part in the GW leapfrog).
Politics, and the degree of trust in NR's costings, will surely play a part in which scheme gets authorised next (bar HS2, which is pre-authorised).

 

[edwin_m]

A Network Rail list of their view of the best business cases for electrification, and where there are quick wins, doesn't mean HMG will approve schemes in that order.
For years, NR insisted that the MML was its top priority, with a negative BCR (ie it cost more long term not to electrify).
The DfT then politically authorised the GW and NW schemes ahead of it and then discovered the business cases did not stack up.
(Crossrail authorisation played a part in the GW leapfrog).
Politics, and the degree of trust in NR's costings, will surely play a part in which scheme gets authorised next (bar HS2, which is pre-authorised).

The other reason to push GWML up the priority list was rolling stock. If it hadn't been electrified when it was then a self-powered fleet would have been needed to replace the HSTs. Of course delays and cutbacks in the scheme meant the replacement fleet had to be self-powered anyway. Something similar happened in the North, where it was envisaged that redundant EMUs would be re-deployed. This only happened to a very limited extent, due to similar issues of scheme slippage plus the political objections to "southern cast-offs".

Are there any similar rolling stock influences on the choice of future electrification? I wonder if any region that comes forward as being prepared to accept "southern cast-offs" might move itself up the queue.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There's several other Star Wars characters who it would be interesting to see who they'd be.

Jubba the Hut?
Princess Leia?
R2D2?
Chewbacca?

I wonder if there's any on here who like to put themselves forward for roles for the good guys? @baldrick who do you fancy being?

Jubba the Track Paralleling Hut for new third rail extensions like Uckfield?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there any similar rolling stock influences on the choice of future electrification? I wonder if any region that comes forward as being prepared to accept "southern cast-offs" might move itself up the queue.

Well one factor adversely affecting MML wiring is that a bi-mode fleet has already been ordered, so life expiry of existing stock is not a factor.
The freight infills make a lot of sense, if the freight TOCs would commit to using the wires.
It's hard not to see full TP wiring going ahead, as it's such a political hot potato.
East-West wiring would avoid starting up new diesel services.
Urban extensions to replace DMUs would seem to come next, but there are several new DMU fleets on the way.

 

[Sheddyone]

Birmingham still has a significant network of well-used DMU-worked routes, which should all be candidates:
Birmingham - Kidderminster
Birmingham - Stratford upon Avon
Birmingham - Leamington Spa (and links to Stratford) - and onward to Banbury / Oxford / Didcot
Leamington Spa - Coventry - Nuneaton
Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester
Birmingham - Derby
Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury

It would be interesting to know whether the Welsh politicians take a similar or different tack to their English counterparts, as electrification Crewe to Chester might result in Pendolino (and in future HS2) services to Chester, all change for rattly DMU for stations to Holyhead etc. Likewise if you have electrified routes Chester to Crewe, Liverpool and Manchester, through-running of DMUs to continue to provide a service to North Wales without changing looks unlikely to me.

The Snow Hill lines are indeed busy (normally) but it's a big job and needs to be wired completely as one project, so will get pushed down the list.
In order of priority, I would imagine other lines will be wired first:

1. Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury. This one is a no brainer and will allow fully electric service for LNWR and Avanti from Euston/New St all the way to Shrewsbury.
2. Bromsgrove to Worcester. Will allow full EMU service to Worcester and reduce diesel into New St, shame about the new DMUs being built.
3. Nuneaton to Leamington Spa. Again, reduces diesels at the mainly electric Coventry.
4. Leamington to Oxford only needs to be done after Reading to Oxford - XC Reading to Manchester becomes electric.
5. Birmingham to Derby - gives a future XC bi-mode 70 miles of electric to play with and dramatically cuts the fumes down at New St.
6. The Snow Hill lines (Worcester - Kidderminster - Snow Hill - Stratford-on-Avon/Leamington) - this is a long way away, unfortunately.

Mainly fantasy atm, but I can see Shrewsbury happening, being relatively straightforward.

Sheds.

 

[The Planner]

The Snow Hill lines are indeed busy (normally) but it's a big job and needs to be wired completely as one project, so will get pushed down the list.
In order of priority, I would imagine other lines will be wired first:

1. Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury. This one is a no brainer and will allow fully electric service for LNWR and Avanti from Euston/New St all the way to Shrewsbury.
2. Bromsgrove to Worcester. Will allow full EMU service to Worcester and reduce diesel into New St, shame about the new DMUs being built.
3. Nuneaton to Leamington Spa. Again, reduces diesels at the mainly electric Coventry.
4. Leamington to Oxford only needs to be done after Reading to Oxford - XC Reading to Manchester becomes electric.
5. Birmingham to Derby - gives a future XC bi-mode 70 miles of electric to play with and dramatically cuts the fumes down at New St.
6. The Snow Hill lines (Worcester - Kidderminster - Snow Hill - Stratford-on-Avon/Leamington) - this is a long way away, unfortunately.

Mainly fantasy atm, but I can see Shrewsbury happening, being relatively straightforward.

Sheds.

Disagree, I would expect Snow Hill to be at the top of that. Clearly Avanti don't expect Shrewsbury to be done anytime soon or they will be thinking of where to send their new bi-modes instead. A bigger question could well be does it trigger something at Shrewsbury in terms of resignalling it. Bromsgrove to Worcester still leaves the Herefords and the Snow Hill services, so what DMU does it remove? Nuneaton to Leamington removes very little too.

 

[tbtc]

East-West wiring would avoid starting up new diesel services

Given how complicated/ expensive/ disruptive it appears to be to wire up existing railways, it's frustrating that new lines (like East-West - okay, not 100% "new) are wired up from day one

Urban extensions to replace DMUs would seem to come next, but there are several new DMU fleets on the way.

Certainly a few of those - e.g. Guide Bridge to Rose Hill Marple would free up a half hourly DMU out of Piccadilly - doesn't need to be a mega-scheme

The Snow Hill lines are indeed busy (normally) but it's a big job and needs to be wired completely as one project, so will get pushed down the list.

If you introduce bi-modes (to replace the 172s to scrap thirty plus 150s at other TOCs) then you wouldn't need to go all the way to Worcester/ Stratford - the "core" is a ten minute service, so that would be a good place to start (as long as wires fit in the tunnels)

1. Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury. This one is a no brainer and will allow fully electric service for LNWR and Avanti from Euston/New St all the way to Shrewsbury.

Avanti are ordering bi-modes for that service, and I can't see TfW getting anything new if that line was wired, so it'd really be about just the WMT services

2. Bromsgrove to Worcester. Will allow full EMU service to Worcester and reduce diesel into New St, shame about the new DMUs being built.

I presume you mean an extension of the Lichfield - Bromsgrove services? How would they compare to the existing Birmingham - Worcester journey times? (wouldn't affect the Birmingham - Hereford service though)

3. Nuneaton to Leamington Spa. Again, reduces diesels at the mainly electric Coventry.

Would have been better/ simpler in the days it was just a Nuneaton - Coventry service, self contained. Harder now you have to wire up to Leamington too (which really means waiting on the Snow Hill/ Chiltern lines being done - otherwise you are paying for the wiring of that line too.

4. Leamington to Oxford only needs to be done after Reading to Oxford - XC Reading to Manchester becomes electric.

These XC services extend to Bournemouth though - unless you cut them back to fit neatly into the electrification map?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Given how complicated/ expensive/ disruptive it appears to be to wire up existing railways, it's frustrating that new lines (like East-West - okay, not 100% "new) are wired up from day one

It's gross negligence multiplied by incompetence, which is equal to HM Treasury plus Department for Transport.

EWR would be an absolute dream, so simple and easy to electrify if the masts were fitted pre track laying. It'll be easy enough anyway, as all the clearances and immunisations etc will be in place, but it's just much easier doing the piling and boring work using a tracked vehicle rather than a rail or road-rail vehicle.

 

[MarkyT]

These XC services extend to Bournemouth though - unless you cut them back to fit neatly into the electrification map?

Suggest add 3rd rail capability to the new electric units used, with a bit of battery storage on board to blend in so they don't tax the DC supply too much.

It's gross negligence multiplied by incompetence, which is equal to HM Treasury plus Department for Transport.

EWR would be an absolute dream, so simple and easy to electrify if the masts were fitted pre track laying. It'll be easy enough anyway, as all the clearances and immunisations etc will be in place, but it's just much easier doing the piling and boring work using a tracked vehicle rather than a rail or road-rail vehicle.

At least they'll know where all the signalling cables are!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A bigger question could well be does it trigger something at Shrewsbury in terms of resignalling it.

It would certainly add yet another layer to the variety of technologies on show!
You might get away with just wiring the bays for Birmingham services, but I guess NR would want to wire the lot for through services, meaning wholesale resignalling.

 

[MarkyT]

It would certainly add yet another layer to the variety of technologies on show!
You might get away with just wiring the bays for Birmingham services, but I guess NR would want to wire the lot for through services, meaning wholesale resignalling.

Realistically, any Shrewsbury wiring would almost certainly trigger resignalling.