Without additional funding from government there is a real risk to the survival of Eurostar

[BahrainLad]

I think one of the problems with Eurostar is that it was always going to have to evolve as a result of Brexit anyway.
Id guess that Ashford, Ebbsfleet and Calais Frethun stations were always going to become unviable and are unlikely to reopen now. With huge drop in the MEPs and civil servants business a service to Brussels only was going to be at best marginal and I think that it would have evolved in to becoming a stop on the limited Amsterdam Service. Of course the problem is that now with covid nobody truly knows what the new normal will be for Eurostar or indeed if it will be a viable company in the new normal.

Even post Brexit there will be significant numbers of civil servants shuttling back and forth between London and Brussels, there is a sizeable diplomatic representation in each and something like 13 sub-committees to manage aspects of the new relationship. I would however expect all Brussels trains to continue to Amsterdam in the not too distant future. Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

 

[davetheguard]

Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

That's a big if. Don't forget there are now customs checks to be done too. If they can be done in London, like the passport control at St. Pancras, then maybe, but in any event journey times are going to be extended by longer check-in times needed to deal with all the new bureaucracy that has been created.

 

[BahrainLad]

That's a big if. Don't forget there are now customs checks to be done too. If they can be done in London, like the passport control at St. Pancras, then maybe, but in any event journey times are going to be extended by longer check-in times needed to deal with all the new bureaucracy that has been created.

Good point. How are the customs checks for the Amsterdam train done now, do they seal off an island through platform at BXL?

 

[Ianno87]

Good point. How are the customs checks for the Amsterdam train done now, do they seal off an island through platform at BXL?

Yes, there are shutters down the middle of Platforms 3/4.

 

[paul1609]

Even post Brexit there will be significant numbers of civil servants shuttling back and forth between London and Brussels, there is a sizeable diplomatic representation in each and something like 13 sub-committees to manage aspects of the new relationship. I would however expect all Brussels trains to continue to Amsterdam in the not too distant future. Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

I agree, but these will be small fry when compared to the gravy train of "business" trips to consult MEPs , regional funding committees etc etc that was the status quo.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure which of my many posts ( ) you were referring to.

I would accept some injection of UK Government funds in any of the following circumstances:

1) An equity stake;
2) A time limited loan; or
3) If a 50:50 UK:France investment, then France would need to pay more than the UK to reflect all the profits/dividends received since the UK sold their stake. (This is because, unless there are any unusual contractual obligations, the UK Government has no legal requirement to 'give' any funding to a private French/Belgian/Canadian company)

I don't see how that would be a bad thing. If they are only "investing" on the assumption the government will bail them out if things go awry it isn't an investment at all.

I agree. Most opposition to the UK government taking an equity stake is political or the private investors desperate not to lose all their investment. As I have said early in the thread they have already had some taxpayer funding (furlough scheme). Its a private business and the Government is not a charity. By replacing franchises with EMAs the Government has effectively nationalised rail services. Flybe was refused Government help because it was insolvent. Wizz Air received loans despite not being a British airline because of its UK presence but most importantly because it provided planes as security. Media reports a week or so ago stated that Eurostar had rejected using rolling stock as security. If they aren't prepared to have UK government take an equity stake in return for investment or use rolling stock as security for loans then they aren't desperate for support!

 

[Irascible]

Even post Brexit there will be significant numbers of civil servants shuttling back and forth between London and Brussels, there is a sizeable diplomatic representation in each and something like 13 sub-committees to manage aspects of the new relationship. I would however expect all Brussels trains to continue to Amsterdam in the not too distant future. Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

I'd think there will probably be *more* diplomatic traffic given all the extra red tape there is now - also business, especially with companies being told by govt to set up branches in the EU.

 

[DanielB]

I would however expect all Brussels trains to continue to Amsterdam in the not too distant future. Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

Even ignoring the plans to move the terminus for Eurostar to Amsterdam Zuid, I'd never expect a cross-platform connection between Eurostar from London and the ICE towards Frankfurt at Amsterdam Central.
Although its technically possible (the points are available to allow a Eurostar to arrive at a platform which can also be reached from the sidings at which the ICE gets its cleaning between journeys) this will give huge conflicts involving crossing of lines with up to 10 tph per direction.

I wouldn't see any logic reason to change at Amsterdam Central when coming from London onwards to Germany as well. In pure travel time Rotterdam - Amsterdam - Utrecht using Eurostar and ICE takes an hour, so the option to change in Rotterdam to a domestic IC and in Utrecht to the ICE is a lot faster (pure travel time just 35 minutes).
A cross-platform connection onto the Intercity towards Berlin is much easier though, and such a connection would also be more logic in terms of route.

 

[Ianno87]

Even ignoring the plans to move the terminus for Eurostar to Amsterdam Zuid, I'd never expect a cross-platform connection between Eurostar from London and the ICE towards Frankfurt at Amsterdam Central.
Although its technically possible (the points are available to allow a Eurostar to arrive at a platform which can also be reached from the sidings at which the ICE gets its cleaning between journeys) this will give huge conflicts involving crossing of lines with up to 10 tph per direction.

I wouldn't see any logic reason to change at Amsterdam Central when coming from London onwards to Germany as well. In pure travel time Rotterdam - Amsterdam - Utrecht using Eurostar and ICE takes an hour, so the option to change in Rotterdam to a domestic IC and in Utrecht to the ICE is a lot faster (pure travel time just 35 minutes).
A cross-platform connection onto the Intercity towards Berlin is much easier though, and such a connection would also be more logic in terms of route.

I think the idea was cross-platform ICE connection at Brussels, not Amsterdam.

 

[BahrainLad]

I think the idea was cross-platform ICE connection at Brussels, not Amsterdam.

Correct, something I have availed of myself on the 1104 connecting to the 1425 (one gathers you can buy a cheap SP fare to Amsterdam and get off at Brussels if you want to book this train more than 2 months out).

It would be great if E*+DB could offer - through ticketing at attractive prices, guaranteed cross-platform interchange at BXL, the option to hold the outbound ICE if E* is say up to 10 minutes late, and followed by guaranteed ticket acceptance on the next service.

These are all the sorts of things airlines worked out in the 1960s/1970s (aiding passenger connections between airlines) which particularly in the USA lead to explosive growth in air travel.

 

[Will Mitchell]

Correct, something I have availed of myself on the 1104 connecting to the 1425 (one gathers you can buy a cheap SP fare to Amsterdam and get off at Brussels if you want to book this train more than 2 months out).

It would be great if E*+DB could offer - through ticketing at attractive prices, guaranteed cross-platform interchange at BXL, the option to hold the outbound ICE if E* is say up to 10 minutes late, and followed by guaranteed ticket acceptance on the next service.

These are all the sorts of things airlines worked out in the 1960s/1970s (aiding passenger connections between airlines) which particularly in the USA lead to explosive growth in air travel.

DB used to but E* pulled the plug. another reason why i won’t be mourning E*’s demise.

 

[JonathanP]

It would be great if E*+DB could offer - through ticketing at attractive prices, guaranteed cross-platform interchange at BXL, the option to hold the outbound ICE if E* is say up to 10 minutes late, and followed by guaranteed ticket acceptance on the next service.

They kind of do/did most of that.

There used to be a thing called the "London Spezial" which offered through tickets from London to anywhere in Germany at astoundingly good prices - sometimes as low as €70, rarely more than €130, which compared to the cost of the individual legs was a great deal. Unfortunately it was also subject to quota restrictions on Eurostar, and eventually came to end, supposedly due to computer system integration problems.

Provided you have a through ticket, you can use the HOTNAT offer to take not just the next ICE, but also the next Thalys if it's a better option. They do generally hold the ICE for a bit if needed, but it's not guaranteed.

DB used to but E* pulled the plug. another reason why i won’t be mourning E*’s demise.

There won't be a demise.

E* is supposed to be merging with Thalys, so logically they should be ones to be offering highly convenient connections into Germany. However, how much they really care about this connection I'm not sure. They have no trains capable of going beyond Cologne to Frankfurt over the high speed line, and most of the traffic growth in recent years seems to have go to DB.

 

[BahrainLad]

Yes, I used the DB tickets a couple of times but they had a couple of issues that could be improved to make them more attractive, particularly for business travellers
- Eurostar didn’t sell them
- you couldn’t collect Eurostar points
- you couldn’t select a seat on your Eurostar sector
- you had to visit the manual window at St P because the ticket gates wouldn’t accept the DB qr code

and again, HOTNAT is a great service but the messaging around it is extremely consumer unfriendly. The last time I checked there’s no mention of it on the Eurostar website. The Railteam website only mentions it in passing, buried half way down the page - it basically says it exists, but theres no detail on how to actually use the policy. A conversation on Twitter with an (excellent) E* staffer highlighted that theres a special stamp that the incoming train crew can use to mark your ticket, or a slip if you have a smartphone ticket, but why isn’t this explained anywhere online or during the booking process?

I remember in the distant days if BA when they had a lot of people connecting from T1 to T4 at LHR they had entire wallets full of maps and information about how to make a connection, why don’t Railteam offer something similar? Or, in 2021, it really isn’t beyond the wit of an app to say ”your inbound Eurostar is delayed. You will miss your connection. Your new train is x. Your new seat is y. You may wait in our lounge which is here. Please see a member of staff if you require assistance.” (Many US airlines are now doing this and it works very well).
or even...”Your inbound Eurostar is delayed. Your connecting ICE has been retimed from 1425 to 1445. Please make your way to platform x on arrival as soon as possible to ensure a prompt departure.”
we can but dream!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember in the distant days if BA when they had a lot of people connecting from T1 to T4 at LHR they had entire wallets full of maps and information about how to make a connection, why don’t Railteam offer something similar? Or, in 2021, it really isn’t beyond the wit of an app to say ”your inbound Eurostar is delayed. You will miss your connection. Your new train is x. Your new seat is y. You may wait in our lounge which is here. Please see a member of staff if you require assistance.” (Many US airlines are now doing this and it works very well).
or even...”Your inbound Eurostar is delayed. Your connecting ICE has been retimed from 1425 to 1445. Please make your way to platform x on arrival as soon as possible to ensure a prompt departure.”
we can but dream!

A great advantage of compulsory reservations is that you should know both which train everyone is on and which connections they need to make, so much better decisions can be made[1] and much more effective communication is possible....unfortunately, the railway often goes into "conservative" mode and fails to explore these benefits, not least because the data ends up in lots of separate databases.

[1] So you're not for example holding a branch train in case someone is connecting to it when you know they aren't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quotation from Grant Shapps today (via PA) about aid for Eurostar:

Giving evidence to the Commons Transport Select Committee, Mr Shapps said the UK will be “as helpful as possible”, stating that schemes such as UK Export Finance – which partially guarantees loans – could be utilised.
But he continued: “We don’t own the shares, so, to state the obvious, it is the shareholders’ problem to resolve.
“We’ll be as helpful as possible but it’s not for us to take over their issue.
“You’ve got 55% ownership by the French state. It’s not just any old shareholder.”
Mr Shapps added: “The solution will be found. I don’t think there’s any world in which we cease to have that connection up and running in the future when indeed we’re all able to travel again.”

Government ‘keen for Eurostar to survive but will not take lead in rescue’ (msn.com)

 

[Wolfie]

Even post Brexit there will be significant numbers of civil servants shuttling back and forth between London and Brussels, there is a sizeable diplomatic representation in each and something like 13 sub-committees to manage aspects of the new relationship. I would however expect all Brussels trains to continue to Amsterdam in the not too distant future. Incidentally, this will make connections with the ICE even easier (if organised correctly, they can be made cross-platform).

Not to mention NATO's HQ, which l did a lot of work at in a past job, is in Brussels.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Quotation from Grant Shapps today (via PA) about aid for Eurostar:

Government ‘keen for Eurostar to survive but will not take lead in rescue’ (msn.com)

Just watched Shapps at the committee and he's making it very clear that its a French problem despite Chris Loder Tory MP really pressing him over the consequences. He does dangle carrots that they can access the various support schemes that the UK govt has in place.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/20fceb87-bc67-4158-98db-dbf8d131e00a starts around 10.58

My take is they clearly don't want to be seen to be bailing out a European owned company as it wouldn't paly to the BREXIT narrative very well i guess.

 

[paul1609]

Just watched Shapps at the committee and he's making it very clear that its a French problem despite Chris Loder Tory MP really pressing him over the consequences. He does dangle carrots that they can access the various support schemes that the UK govt has in place.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/20fceb87-bc67-4158-98db-dbf8d131e00a starts around 10.58

My take is they clearly don't want to be seen to be bailing out a European owned company as it wouldn't paly to the BREXIT narrative very well i guess.

My take on it is its nothing to do with Brexit rather that it would open the floodgates for support requests for other foreign owned companies that the govt have resisted; Virgin Atlantic, Ryanair, DB (Great Central) etc, etc

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My take on it is its nothing to do with Brexit rather that it would open the floodgates for support requests for other foreign owned companies that the govt have resisted; Virgin Atlantic, Ryanair, DB (Great Central) etc, etc

Not strictly correct as many companies who have UK subsidiaries have accessed the govt backed loan schemes like Wizz Air who got £300m via Covid Corporate Financing Facility. I believe Shapps was suggesting Eurostar could do the same through Eurostar International Ltd.

 

[SamYeager]

Not strictly correct as many companies who have UK subsidiaries have accessed the govt backed loan schemes like Wizz Air who got £300m via Covid Corporate Financing Facility. I believe Shapps was suggesting Eurostar could do the same through Eurostar International Ltd.

Of course just like Vrgin Atlantic Eurostar would need to provide its figures so that the government can assess iwhether it's tapped other resources such as its shareholders first. Virgin Atlantic got a thumbs down so I wonder whether Eurostar suspects they would meet the same fate?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Of course just like Vrgin Atlantic Eurostar would need to provide its figures so that the government can assess iwhether it's tapped other resources such as its shareholders first. Virgin Atlantic got a thumbs down so I wonder whether Eurostar suspects they would meet the same fate?

Maybe but imv its all political French don't want to bail out a service that is mainly driven by UK demand and UK don't want to be seen to be bailing out a French (ie EU) company. At the end of the day the infrastructure and trains are there someone would buy it if the worst happens and the workforce would be TUPEd over. Yes there would be collateral damage potentially from such action as to how investors viewed it but my take is we at end game here over private finance owning strategic assets.

 

[STINT47]

In order for the government to invest I think Eurostar needs to offer something in return. That could be part ownership, a share of the future profits to repay the money loaned plus intrest or something else such as assets.

Without offering something it will appear to the public that when we sold our share in Eurostar we privatised the profits but are now nationalising the losses. Add in that Eurostar is majority owned by SNCF and Brexit and it's politically undesirable to just give them some money.

There would of course be some pretty serious consequences to all parties if Eurostar shut down. I wonder if we are watching a high stakes game of poker? Eurostar saying we will go under and it will be bad for the UK. Our goverment saying give us something or we will let you fail. Ultimately when Eurostar reaches the point of collapse I suspect some compromise will be found.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe but imv its all political French don't want to bail out a service that is mainly driven by UK demand and UK don't want to be seen to be bailing out a French (ie EU) company. At the end of the day the infrastructure and trains are there someone would buy it if the worst happens and the workforce would be TUPEd over. Yes there would be collateral damage potentially from such action as to how investors viewed it but my take is we at end game here over private finance owning strategic assets.

TUPE won't apply to a private company.
French/Belgian law will in any case apply to staff/assets on the continent, which seems to be in the majority.
What I don't quite understand is that there is a treaty or protocol between the governments involved, where they agreed that the railway would take half the capacity of the channel tunnel, and this underpinned the Eurotunnel funding on both sides of the channel.
It also specified things like the safety regime and how the traffic was to be regulated by the intergovernmental commission.
I know the treaty is up for renewal, but Shapps can't just slope arms on the UK commitments made by Margaret Thatcher and others.

 

[Wolfie]

TUPE won't apply to a private company.
French/Belgian law will in any case apply to staff/assets on the continent, which seems to be in the majority.
What I don't quite understand is that there is a treaty or protocol between the governments involved, where they agreed that the railway would take half the capacity of the channel tunnel, and this underpinned the Eurotunnel funding on both sides of the channel.
It also specified things like the safety regime and how the traffic was to be regulated by the intergovernmental commission.
I know the treaty is up for renewal, but Shapps can't just slope arms on the UK commitments made by Margaret Thatcher and others.

Shapps can try... He likely wouldn't like the French and Belgian response though...

 

[HSTEd]

What actual Treaty obligations are placed on the Government?

As far as I can see nothing in the Treaty of Canterbury actually requires either Government to guarantee the maintain of service of passenger trains through the tunnel.

 

[43096]

TUPE won't apply to a private company.

TUPE absolutely does apply to private companies.

Whether it would apply in the particular circumstance if Eurostar was to disappear depends on the structure of any deal.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

TUPE won't apply to a private company.
French/Belgian law will in any case apply to staff/assets on the continent, which seems to be in the majority.
What I don't quite understand is that there is a treaty or protocol between the governments involved, where they agreed that the railway would take half the capacity of the channel tunnel, and this underpinned the Eurotunnel funding on both sides of the channel.
It also specified things like the safety regime and how the traffic was to be regulated by the intergovernmental commission.
I know the treaty is up for renewal, but Shapps can't just slope arms on the UK commitments made by Margaret Thatcher and others.

Eurostar International Ltd is the main trading company for Eurostar and is domiciled in the UK despite being owned by SNCF (55%), SNCB(5%) and Patina Rail LLP (40%) [Canadian]. So they are fully eligible for all the various govt support schemes imv but looking at accounts to seem have raised cash in short term by using the e320 trains as collateral.

TUPE applies to all companies and especially important to stop private companies taking advantage of employees. Where it could be an issue if the English company was placed into insolvency and staff made redundant but more likely route would be administration where someone else buys it (ie British Govt!). The other issue would be whether the employing entity is Eurostar International Ltd or one of its European subsidiaries though.

The issue over liabilities under the treaty is interesting and I don't know whether Eurostar pay a fixed fee for paths or an annual charge or a mixture of both but according to there 2019 accounts they paid ET £247m to use the tunnel and was same as 2018 so looks like it could be fixed. They also pay out a further 95m in UK infrastructure charges (HS1 mainly i guess) which i believe is a mixture of fixed charge and variable access charge like NR plus access charges to SNCF/SNCB/NS. Clearly HS1 is pretty vulnerable to loss of Eurostar traffic but ET would be able to weather the loss.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TUPE absolutely does apply to private companies.

Apologies, I was under the impression that the PE applied to Public Employees only, but I see it's Protection of Employment.

 

[paul1609]

Eurostar International Ltd is the main trading company for Eurostar and is domiciled in the UK despite being owned by SNCF (55%), SNCB(5%) and Patina Rail LLP (40%) [Canadian]. So they are fully eligible for all the various govt support schemes imv but looking at accounts to seem have raised cash in short term by using the e320 trains as collateral.

TUPE applies to all companies and especially important to stop private companies taking advantage of employees. Where it could be an issue if the English company was placed into insolvency and staff made redundant but more likely route would be administration where someone else buys it (ie British Govt!). The other issue would be whether the employing entity is Eurostar International Ltd or one of its European subsidiaries though.

The issue over liabilities under the treaty is interesting and I don't know whether Eurostar pay a fixed fee for paths or an annual charge or a mixture of both but according to there 2019 accounts they paid ET £247m to use the tunnel and was same as 2018 so looks like it could be fixed. They also pay out a further 95m in UK infrastructure charges (HS1 mainly i guess) which i believe is a mixture of fixed charge and variable access charge like NR plus access charges to SNCF/SNCB/NS. Clearly HS1 is pretty vulnerable to loss of Eurostar traffic but ET would be able to weather the loss.

Why would the British Government want to buy an insolvent French Company? Better off leaving the service for 5 years until the travel market is recovering and setting up a new company to offer the service. I don't see that Eurostar is needed in the short term anymore than Tops Shop debenhams etc.

 

[Ianno87]

Why would the British Government want to buy an insolvent French Company? Better off leaving the service for 5 years until the travel market is recovering and setting up a new company to offer the service. I don't see that Eurostar is needed in the short term anymore than Tops Shop debenhams etc.

Eurostar is fundamentally a profitable operation. Topshop and Debenhams aren't.