SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Energy]

Now that it is the afternoon, can I just confirm this is real and wasn’t an April Fool started early? You have to admit it does sound a little strange...

Does it? They have been having problems with the 442s for ages and they likely got a cheap deal on the 458s.

 

[DorkingMain]

Railway Gazette has been quoted elsewhere as saying only 28 units will be retained. (Can’t quote article as registration required.)

28 gives 9 x 12-car sets (+1 spare unit).

So roughly equivalent to the 9 x 10-car 442 sets (which had 23m coaches)

At a guess, the ex-Class 460 units will be ditched (531-536) - these had different interiors and various other quirks

 

[Helvellyn]

One of the reasons for using the 442s was that they were available quickly - Class 701s wouldn't have displaced 458s or anything soon enough for the planned uplift in services/capacity.

Possibly SWR could have considered 442s as an interim fleet until say 458s were available, but i assume Angel gave assurances retractioning would be cheaper overall, which to add in training costs for two fleets would have been more expensive.

Before anyone says "but they are doing this now" I suspect that the fact the franchise formally ends this year and DfT and First/MTR are taking a more longer term view, i.e. no franchise ending in 2024, new operating model, etc. so the 442s are being ditched and the 458s will be around for quite some time.

 

[RealTrains07]

28 gives 9 x 12-car sets (+1 spare unit).

So roughly equivalent to the 9 x 10-car 442 sets (which had 23m coaches)

At a guess, the ex-Class 460 units will be ditched (531-536) - these had different interiors and various other quirks

Makes you wonder why 28 and not 30?
considering its only 531 - 536 which are the 460 units. 529 and 530 are from the original 458s

 

[Juniper Driver]

Mod - Please note some posts copied from the 442 withdrawal discussion thread.

442s apparently are permanently withdrawn with 458s being reconfigured to 100mph 4 car units... or that’s what the rumour mill says.

Well I heard about the 458 rumour today...At Waterloo...Hope I can keep them signed on my traction card.

 

[southern442]

Have the 458's ever made it onto other mainline services before? I believe they used to work Alton line trains and Ascot-Guildford, any others?

 

[FOH]

Have the 458's ever made it onto other mainline services before? I believe they used to work Alton line trains and Ascot-Guildford, any others?

I used to see them at Fleet in the mornings so presumably Basingstoke stoppers

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They’ve definitely worked to Haslemere in service a couple of times

 

[Snow1964]

As l understand it the 444 and 442s are 23m carriages but the 458s are 20m.

The 458s driving cars are 21m, but the intermediate cars are 20m
The 450s are all about 20.5m
So both types are about 82m long (or 246m for 12 car)

A 10car 442 or 444 train is about 231m (around 15m shorter)

For those that think in old money 246m is 807 feet

I’m happy to be corrected, but I think the Southern Railway electrification schemes of 1930s (including Portsmouth direct and Farnham lines) had platforms extended to a standard length of 820 feet (approx 250m).

I have no idea if a 24.5m vehicle would fit on the South Western, (which would give same length for 10car train), but it is irrelevant to 458 debate (although as East Midlands are using this length, might be relevant to a class 159 replacement (but that is for another thread)

 

[Mikey C]

28 gives 9 x 12-car sets (+1 spare unit).

So roughly equivalent to the 9 x 10-car 442 sets (which had 23m coaches)

At a guess, the ex-Class 460 units will be ditched (531-536) - these had different interiors and various other quirks

I assume 12 carriages of 458 would have fewer seats than 10 carriages of 442, with the greater number of (much) larger doors plus the extra cabs

Not a material problem though

 

[southern442]

I assume 12 carriages of 458 would have fewer seats than 10 carriages of 442, with the greater number of (much) larger doors plus the extra cabs

Not a material problem though

An 8-carriage 460 had fewer seats than a 5-carriage 442, so it is possibly likely, although 460s had a few carriages of 2+1 and were generally quite low density. The 442s in their Southern days were very capacious.

As you say though, it won't be too much of a problem because on longer distance routes the standing passengers will probably only be standing for 45 minutes or less (still a problem but we can't all win) and the ones that are seated, if trains are done up right, will be happy.

 

[Goldfish62]

An 8-carriage 460 had fewer seats than a 5-carriage 442, so it is possibly likely, although 460s had a few carriages of 2+1 and were generally quite low density. The 442s in their Southern days were very capacious.

As you say though, it won't be too much of a problem because on longer distance routes the standing passengers will probably only be standing for 45 minutes or less (still a problem but we can't all win) and the ones that are seated, if trains are done up right, will be happy.

I don't think standing passengers are going to be an issue for a very long time, assuming the timetable is not heavily cut back.

Talking of which, looking on RTT the Reading line timetable is being heavily cut from May with all peak extras withdrawn. This is going to release about a dozen 458s so presumably the refurb programme can start soon after.

 

[DorkingMain]

I don't think standing passengers are going to be an issue for a very long time, assuming the timetable is not heavily cut back.

Talking of which, looking on RTT the Reading line timetable is being heavily cut from May with all peak extras withdrawn. This is going to release about a dozen 458s so presumably the refurb programme can start soon after.

Probably counterbalanced by the fact that more pairs of 707s are due to go to Southeastern in the near future.

Order of departure will now be 707 > 458 > 455 / 456, with no future home for the latter units and the retractioning meaning they'll last a while yet.

 

[Goldfish62]

Probably counterbalanced by the fact that more pairs of 707s are due to go to Southeastern in the near future.

Order of departure will now be 707 > 458 > 455 / 456, with no future home for the latter units and the retractioning meaning they'll last a while yet.

Ah, that would explain why the 707s are able to go first now.

 

[43096]

Talking of which, looking on RTT the Reading line timetable is being heavily cut from May with all peak extras withdrawn. This is going to release about a dozen 458s so presumably the refurb programme can start soon after.

Just had a look - I see what you mean. Only the peak Farnhams remain. There's also no 2050 off Waterloo from what I can see.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just had a look - I see what you mean. Only the peak Farnhams remain. There's also no 2050 off Waterloo from what I can see.

Yes, you're right. Also the last train from Waterloo at 2350 has been withdrawn.

I've never known such a low service level on the Reading line. Looks like post-Covid reality is biting.

 

[Roger B]

Yes, you're right. Also the last train from Waterloo at 2350 has been withdrawn.

I've never known such a low service level on the Reading line. Looks like post-Covid reality is biting.

I daresay there'd be little demand for late trains out of Waterloo until the hospitality industry fully opens up. And perhaps if numbers using the evening services out of Waterloo (and other stations) then start to grow, later services might be reinstated at some point.

 

[Goldfish62]

I daresay there'd be little demand for late trains out of Waterloo until the hospitality industry fully opens up. And perhaps if numbers using the evening services out of Waterloo (and other stations) then start to grow, later services might be reinstated at some point.

Except hospitality fully reopens from 17 May.

You can go back decades to when Central London was much quieter at night and there were still later trains than there will be from May.

Anyway, too OT!

 

[infobleep]

Could it be possi that the 458s might be used more on the Weymouth line, with more 444s working the Portsmouth Direct or are 444s better suited to the Weymouth line?

I've always liked the 444s but maybe that is because they have tables in standard class and plug sockets! As more trains have plug sockets now in standard class it's less of a selling point. The tables however is another story.

When your on a train for 30 to 40 minutes commuting, just sometimes you might want to do some work on a laptop. So I hope the 458s gain tables. Having said this for a lot of the work I do, the mobile data and on train WiFi isn't powerful enough along the railway lines.

 

[JonathanH]

Could it be possi that the 458s might be used more on the Weymouth line, with more 444s working the Portsmouth Direct or are 444s better suited to the Weymouth line?

The issue with the Weymouth line is the splitting and joining at Bournemouth so it is much more appropriate to have one type of rolling stock on the line. Trains on the Portsmouth Direct tend to stay coupled all day.

 

[Monty]

Would make much more sense to put the 458's on the Alton and Basingstoke diagrams which are largely self contained, then cascade the Desiros to the mainline.

 

[TEW]

Would make much more sense to put the 458's on the Alton and Basingstoke diagrams which are largely self contained, then cascade the Desiros to the mainline.

Probably doesn't fit with them being refurbished with interiors suitable for long distance services. The Portsmouth fast diagrams are also largely self contained now.

 

[infobleep]

The issue with the Weymouth line is the splitting and joining at Bournemouth so it is much more appropriate to have one type of rolling stock on the line. Trains on the Portsmouth Direct tend to stay coupled all day.

They don't need a shunter to split but I guess if there is still to much risk, it's not worth it.

 

[JonathanH]

They don't need a shunter to split but I guess if there is still to much risk, it's not worth it.

The coupling process isn't the issue, it is matching up the timetable so that you don't get a 458 trying to couple to a 444.

 

[swt_passenger]

They don't need a shunter to split but I guess if there is still to much risk, it's not worth it.

It’s also likely a 5/5 at 23m split rather than 8/4 or 4/8 better fits the capacity required Bournemouth to Weymouth...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s also likely a 5/5 at 23m split rather than 8/4 or 4/8 better fits the capacity required Bournemouth to Weymouth...

I would probably agree. You'd need to run 8 onwards to Weymouth really, as 4 is rarely enough for anything on former NSE. And the end door trains are probably more suited to the longer journey.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I would probably agree. You'd need to run 8 onwards to Weymouth really, as 4 is rarely enough for anything on former NSE. And the end door trains are probably more suited to the longer journey.

Must admit I've never seen more than 1 x 444 at Weymouth before, so it will be interesting to see an 2x 458s coupled together there one day perhaps.

I'm guessing there is no details as of yet as to if they will be repainted and who will do the work if it goes ahead?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Much as you’re talking about Weymouth and Bournemouth I reckon we’ll see the 458s on Portsmouths. The 444s are perfect for the split on Weymouth services, they have long carriages and doors at ends appropriate for the flagship long distance service^, and the Portsmouth services can pretty much all be booked as 8/12 then which makes things easier if they need to throw a 450 on the diagram.

^No, that isn’t “door prejudice” - it is a very real expectation to not have doors opening and closing letting in cold air on a long distance service...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can 458s even run as triples? I don’t remember seeing them ever do so as 458/0s

 

[swt_passenger]

Can 458s even run as triples? I don’t remember seeing them ever do so as 458/0s

The routes they were used on prior to the 5 car project had not had the platforms lengthened or the power supply upgraded. There’d have been nowhere to use them as 12 car back then.