Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Robertj21a]

Guildford and Tunbridge Wells must be under the spotlight at some point.
I can't think of anywhere obvious in Yorkshire, Merseyside or North East.

 

[Surreyman]

I don't like to speculate, if only because I'm sensitive to employees potentially reading such things. So, to clarify, I have no inside line about what may or not be sold, chopped or whatever. Instead, I point only to the flat spots of Arriva operation....

When I was down there in autumn 2018, the Guildford operations had a whiff of decay about them. The Woking to Guildford routes were operated by vehicles in Max livery, Sapphire vehicles, Versas with Southend branding still partly visible, and just at a really low ebb. I think, since then, they've moved the newer Streetlites and MMCs out and put in older Citaros and Versas. It's a much reduced operation and with Rotala, Stagecoach and White Bus all with better fleets, the difference vs Arriva is even more pronounced.

Guildford has recently had older Mercedes Citaros moved in from Harlow as part of a 'shuffle round' to cope with the London LEZ.
Arriva are still the largest operator in Guildford but as you say, their offering is looking tired and down at heal, even the local politicians/councillors are aware of this.
In contrast Stagecoach with electric buses and recently transferred in E200MMCs, are seen as positively progressive.
Last time I checked, Arriva-Southern was making a loss but impossible to know which parts are profitable and which are not, maybe Sheerness & Tunbridge Wells are pointers?

 

[Typhoon]

The Woking to Guildford routes were operated by vehicles in Max livery, Sapphire vehicles, Versas with Southend branding still partly visible, and just at a really low ebb.

Not exclusive to Surrey. Not been there since the pandemic but the last couple of times I was in Medway there was a similar mix. Four consecutive buses on the 132 were in different liveries. Where is the pride?

Guildford and Tunbridge Wells must be under the spotlight at some point.

From the article I quoted in #82.

“We remain committed to serving Kent, as well as providing continuity of bus services across the region by ensuring the majority of routes are operated out of our Gillingham and Maidstone depots.”

I didn't think anything of it at the time (Tunbridge Wells being many miles away from Sheppey in all sorts of respects) but maybe there is something in that.

In the past few years, Arriva has cut back its work in that part of Kent, most of its network in the Sevenoaks area, work into Sussex, it closed its New Enterprise operation. How much school work is left, I don't know.

@M803UYA would know better than me but I would have thought that the 277, the Tonbridge circulars and the services to the hospital would be quite productive but it is still a shrinking operation. They will have made some cash on the sale of the old bus garage, though.

 

[M803UYA]

@M803UYA would know better than me but I would have thought that the 277, the Tonbridge circulars and the services to the hospital would be quite productive but it is still a shrinking operation. They will have made some cash on the sale of the old bus garage, though.

My information is 5 years old so isn't going to be totally accurate, things will have changed in that time, but you're not far out on it being a tiny number of routes being profitable. That would have been the 7 and the 281 primarily. 6s and 7s combined to a half hourly timetable, but there was some interworking and the bus types were different (singles on the 6, doubles mainly on 7)

The Sevenoaks services didn't make money and were unreliable, but it wouldn't be possible to withdraw a route which served the home of the UK Bus chief executive...

Guildford has recently had older Mercedes Citaros moved in from Harlow as part of a 'shuffle round' to cope with the London LEZ.
Arriva are still the largest operator in Guildford but as you say, their offering is looking tired and down at heal, even the local politicians/councillors are aware of this.
In contrast Stagecoach with electric buses and recently transferred in E200MMCs, are seen as positively progressive.
Last time I checked, Arriva-Southern was making a loss but impossible to know which parts are profitable and which are not, maybe Sheerness & Tunbridge Wells are pointers?

There was a recent skirmish with Safeguard in which they went onto a Safeguard service, with a very predictable response from that company.

 

[Megafuss]

Reading Buses take a historical Brand name and do something with it in Greenline

Arriva relegate it to just sticker on the side of a bus. Non of the buses are...Green and the Mercs' on the 724 have zero extras like WiFi or USB. And if you're lucky it will be a Merc and not a Solar!

Thats Arriva summed up in one example

 

[alex397]

Reading Buses take a historical Brand name and do something with it in Greenline

Arriva relegate it to just sticker on the side of a bus. Non of the buses are...Green and the Mercs' on the 724 have zero extras like WiFi or USB. And if you're lucky it will be a Merc and not a Solar!

Thats Arriva summed up in one example

It’s worse than that. Those Citaros haven’t been on the 724 since February (they’ve been moved to Guildford) due to the LEZ, and have since been replaced by standard Enviro200MMCs, with no Greenline branding at all. They are decent vehicles, but the Citaros were custom built for the 724 with luggage racks, and high-backed seating. I’m sure there weren’t many passengers travelling the full length of the route, but there were plenty making long journeys. A route like that should have better investment and publicity (just like with Reading and their 702/3).

I definitely agree with you, that Reading breathed some new life into the Greenline brand. Arriva have killed it off on the 724.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s worse than that. Those Citaros haven’t been on the 724 since February (they’ve been moved to Guildford) due to the LEZ, and have since been replaced by standard Enviro200MMCs, with no Greenline branding at all. They are decent vehicles, but the Citaros were custom built for the 724 with luggage racks, and high-backed seating. I’m sure there weren’t many passengers travelling the full length of the route, but there were plenty making long journeys. A route like that should have better investment and publicity (just like with Reading and their 702/3).

The white coaches with stickers gave me the impression the route maybe didn't have long to live and it was done to make them easier to sell on or redeploy. Or it could just be usual lackadaisical Arriva

 

[alex397]

The white coaches with stickers gave me the impression the route maybe didn't have long to live and it was done to make them easier to sell on or redeploy. Or it could just be usual lackadaisical Arriva

I think you are referring to those white Temsa coaches which Arriva have been using on the Greenline 758, a ‘proper’ coach route. The 724 is more of a limited stop bus route, and has used buses for decades. But your point still stands! Arriva are quite uninspiring.

 

[Statto]

Could we see First wanting to buy bits of Arriva? As some parts of First (Leicester, Stoke-on-trent, Worcester and Slough) are 'isolated ' areas ?

Ie The Shires added to Slough,
Cheshire added to Potteries???

First might want to buy some of Arriva but doubt they'd be allowed to, to much of a monopoly.

 

[cnjb8]

I highly doubt First are willing to purchase some Arriva regions. First was going to be sold not only a year ago! They are now on a stance of retaining what they have, and if any more Arriva outlier depots are sold (not full on operating regions like some people are suggesting IMO) then it'll be Rotala, GoAhead, maybe even Comfort DelGro or Transdev.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First might want to buy some of Arriva but doubt they'd be allowed to, to much of a monopoly.

And not having the funds

 

[Class465pacer]

Nearly 17 years on from their introduction, the ALX400 B7TLs still comprise the vast majority of the double decker fleet at Gillingham, with no apparent plans to replace them any time soon. When a Medway day ticket costs £5.60 you’d think they’d provide newer buses

 

[Flange Squeal]

From the article I quoted in #82.
I didn't think anything of it at the time (Tunbridge Wells being many miles away from Sheppey in all sorts of respects) but maybe there is something in that.

The Guildford manager at the time said at a 2018 North West Surrey Bus Users Group meeting a similar thing - that Arriva were committed to Surrey, but following the loss of University access harming the depot that that may not necessarily mean Guildford. He talked a lot about their few routes in Woking now being key to the depot, and the idea of opportunities around Heathrow (this being pre-COVID of course!).

There was a recent skirmish with Safeguard in which they went onto a Safeguard service, with a very predictable response from that company.

That ended quite interestingly I thought. Not only did they retreat from their Park Barn incursion, but also their established Bellfields route which Safeguard had set up their retaliation on! So in a way Arriva actually lost out overall, however there had been a bit of bad press on the Bellfields run after the minibuses were introduced which may have helped switch some people to Safeguard. Arriva still run there on Sundays, but that is an existing council contract. The only one of their competitive routes still running is the A to the hospital, with the C to Stoughton (against Stagecoach) I don't think having run for the last year since COVID.

 

[Rob T]

I said how poor the fleet was. That includes the presentation. Obviously, I can't comment on the standard of the engineering work etc but the age and presentation of the fleet was not exactly stellar.

That's not to denigrate the efforts of committed people who are trying their best but they are doing so whilst in a corporate structure that seems increasingly moribund.

If anyone wants to make their own mind up on Arriva Tunbridge Wells vehicle presentation then don’t take my word just do a Flickr search on “Arriva Tunbridge Wells” and reach your own conclusion. Local knowledge is sometimes a good guide!

 

[daodao]

In South Trafford, Arriva remain the largest operator (with 4 routes operating out of their Wythenshawe depot), but it is a small operation. Most of the other major bus companies have a foothold, although First sold the Queens Road depot and their sole South Manchester service (41) to Go Ahead a little while ago. Stagecoach are also downsizing operations at their Sharston depot. TfGM keep meddling with the subsidised network so service patterns are not stable for these routes. Warrington rerouted their CAT5 route a few months ago to bypass Dunham/Bowdon.

Most bus routes in Great Britain are marginal from a commercial perspective, with increasing car use outside certain inner city areas, low density suburban sprawl, hollowing out of town centres, re-siting of major public facilities (e.g. hospitals) on the fringes of the communities they serve and now Covid.

I don't see any real interest in service development locally, or anyone interested in taking over Arriva's local network. As the threat of asset seizure via franchising also hangs over the bus companies, this is probably understandable.

In East/Central Cheshire, D&G are the obvious alternative provider should Arriva wish to dispose of their truncated Winsford/Macclesfield services.

 

[A0wen]

It’s worse than that. Those Citaros haven’t been on the 724 since February (they’ve been moved to Guildford) due to the LEZ, and have since been replaced by standard Enviro200MMCs, with no Greenline branding at all. They are decent vehicles, but the Citaros were custom built for the 724 with luggage racks, and high-backed seating. I’m sure there weren’t many passengers travelling the full length of the route, but there were plenty making long journeys. A route like that should have better investment and publicity (just like with Reading and their 702/3).

I definitely agree with you, that Reading breathed some new life into the Greenline brand. Arriva have killed it off on the 724.

BIB - there's little evidence for that.

Most of the 724s traffic is short hop and it just happens to be the first bus which turns up.

Even for a couple of the longer sections e.g. Welwyn - St Albans or St Albans - Watford, the other routes are also using buses.

Go back 30 or so years and the 724 was a popular way to get to Heathrow from mid Herts because the alternative - train to London then Piccadilly line was quite slow (about an hour from KX to Heathrow) on one of the busiest tube lines through London. That was reduced when the Heathrow Raillink opened and getting to Paddington is easier. It'll be easier still when Crossrail opens and then it'll be a single change.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If anyone wants to make their own mind up on Arriva Tunbridge Wells vehicle presentation then don’t take my word just do a Flickr search on “Arriva Tunbridge Wells” and reach your own conclusion. Local knowledge is sometimes a good guide!

I was there for a week so it was first hand experience, but people are free to follow your advice. I doubt that they’ll see a dynamic, industry leading operation.

 

[Surreyman]

Following this thread, Sheerness is confirmed as closing but (unless I have missed something) the closure of Tunbridge Wells is unconfirmed rumour (I note that the current depot is being advertised 'To let') might it actually be a 'scale back' with either a smaller, cheaper outstation in the TW area or a reduced network operated from Maidstone?

 

[A0wen]

Following this thread, Sheerness is confirmed as closing but (unless I have missed something) the closure of Tunbridge Wells is unconfirmed rumour (I note that the current depot is being advertised 'To let') might it actually be a 'scale back' with either a smaller, cheaper outstation in the TW area or a reduced network operated from Maidstone?

Don't they still have a depot in Gillingham though ?

That could cover both Maidstone and Sheerness quite easily.

 

[M803UYA]

Nearly 17 years on from their introduction, the ALX400 B7TLs still comprise the vast majority of the double decker fleet at Gillingham, with no apparent plans to replace them any time soon. When a Medway day ticket costs £5.60 you’d think they’d provide newer buses

There were some newer 17 plate Enviro 400 MMC buses, but they've been transferred to Leicester for the clean air zone.
Replacement buses, in the form of Wright Gemini Volvos have been transferred from Leicester in their place.
Newer buses, as I've explained come at a cost - depreciation (the annual writing down of a vehicle's value), finance repayments all cost more money than providing a 17 year old Volvo Alexander double decker, which instead costs them in maintenance, downtime and spare parts.
Some of those 04 reg double decks have transferred to Yorkshire - they're now living in a scrapyard outside Barnsley. So some of them are now going.
Southern Counties is a loss making operation, so it won't receive brand new buses. Any investment in new vehicles is conditional on the company achieving their budget and generating profit. No profit, no achievement of budget = no new buses.
Nationally, Arriva haven't invested in newer vehicles for the provincial UK bus division for some time now, and the consequences are clear to see.

 

[Man of Kent]

Don't they still have a depot in Gillingham though ?

That could cover both Maidstone and Sheerness quite easily.

Gillingham is already absolutely packed as it is. There is no room to add a significant number of buses - which would be approximately 70 for the whole of Maidstone.

 

[CBlue]

There is another parallel between First several years ago and present day Arriva.

Both were buying castoffs from other operators rather than order new - I believe there's several Versas at Southern Counties that were all purchased second hand including two from Stagecoach, plus some similarly aged ex-London E200s sourced via Ensignbus.

First were doing just that back in the early 2010s including that huge batch of Darts from Jersey.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There were some newer 17 plate Enviro 400 MMC buses, but they've been transferred to Leicester for the clean air zone.
Replacement buses, in the form of Wright Gemini Volvos have been transferred from Leicester in their place.
Newer buses, as I've explained come at a cost - depreciation (the annual writing down of a vehicle's value), finance repayments all cost more money than providing a 17 year old Volvo Alexander double decker, which instead costs them in maintenance, downtime and spare parts.
Some of those 04 reg double decks have transferred to Yorkshire - they're now living in a scrapyard outside Barnsley. So some of them are now going.
Southern Counties is a loss making operation, so it won't receive brand new buses. Any investment in new vehicles is conditional on the company achieving their budget and generating profit. No profit, no achievement of budget = no new buses.
Nationally, Arriva haven't invested in newer vehicles for the provincial UK bus division for some time now, and the consequences are clear to see.

They have descended into a First style rabbit hole of under-investment and retrenchment, long before Covid. The age profile of the Arriva fleet was pretty decent, especially with the investment around 2010-5 in order to be compliant with DDA legislation or, in the case of the North East, a continuing rectification of a lack of investment between 2001 and 2007.

With some similarities with First (in which UK Bus became a cash cow to help pay for Laidlaw), Arriva has been starved of investment as DB's debt pile has grown (and long before Covid appeared. This article from 2019 has some more detail https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-deutsche-bahn-3-billion-short-on-cash/a-50412978 . That has led to unrealistic return expectations and so not hitting budget is now seen as a reason for limiting capital spend and protecting what cash they have. Aside from a few batches for the provinces (such as Yorkshire Streetdecks), there's been very little other than to London for contractual requirements, for the last 4 years.

Gillingham is already absolutely packed as it is. There is no room to add a significant number of buses - which would be approximately 70 for the whole of Maidstone.

It's been like that since they closed Chatham (Luton) depot 20+ years ago, and of course, exacerbated by low floor/DDA resulting in longer wheelbase vehicles to retain capacities. Not certain how much room Maidstone depot has but echoing the question by another poster, you wonder if the putting of TW depot onto the market is a reflection that they will simply run the 6/7 from Maidstone and simply have an outbase in TW for what's left.

It had been 20 years since I'd spent some real time in the area and I remembered there were always a fair few local operators but it feels that Arriva are much less dominant than they ever have been. Perhaps it's subconscious negative confirmation bias but just felt that way?

 

[Robertj21a]

They have descended into a First style rabbit hole of under-investment and retrenchment, long before Covid. The age profile of the Arriva fleet was pretty decent, especially with the investment around 2010-5 in order to be compliant with DDA legislation or, in the case of the North East, a continuing rectification of a lack of investment between 2001 and 2007.

With some similarities with First (in which UK Bus became a cash cow to help pay for Laidlaw), Arriva has been starved of investment as DB's debt pile has grown (and long before Covid appeared. This article from 2019 has some more detail https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-deutsche-bahn-3-billion-short-on-cash/a-50412978 . That has led to unrealistic return expectations and so not hitting budget is now seen as a reason for limiting capital spend and protecting what cash they have. Aside from a few batches for the provinces (such as Yorkshire Streetdecks), there's been very little other than to London for contractual requirements, for the last 4 years.


It's been like that since they closed Chatham (Luton) depot 20+ years ago, and of course, exacerbated by low floor/DDA resulting in longer wheelbase vehicles to retain capacities. Not certain how much room Maidstone depot has but echoing the question by another poster, you wonder if the putting of TW depot onto the market is a reflection that they will simply run the 6/7 from Maidstone and simply have an outbase in TW for what's left.

It had been 20 years since I'd spent some real time in the area and I remembered there were always a fair few local operators but it feels that Arriva are much less dominant than they ever have been. Perhaps it's negative bias but just felt that way?

Not sure there's even many local operators left nowadays - anyone know?
I don't recall any small op taking on significant work off Arriva.

 

[M803UYA]

They have descended into a First style rabbit hole of under-investment and retrenchment, long before Covid. The age profile of the Arriva fleet was pretty decent, especially with the investment around 2010-5 in order to be compliant with DDA legislation or, in the case of the North East, a continuing rectification of a lack of investment between 2001 and 2007.

With some similarities with First (in which UK Bus became a cash cow to help pay for Laidlaw), Arriva has been starved of investment as DB's debt pile has grown (and long before Covid appeared. This article from 2019 has some more detail https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-deutsche-bahn-3-billion-short-on-cash/a-50412978 . That has led to unrealistic return expectations and so not hitting budget is now seen as a reason for limiting capital spend and protecting what cash they have. Aside from a few batches for the provinces (such as Yorkshire Streetdecks), there's been very little other than to London for contractual requirements, for the last 4 years.


It's been like that since they closed Chatham (Luton) depot 20+ years ago, and of course, exacerbated by low floor/DDA resulting in longer wheelbase vehicles to retain capacities. Not certain how much room Maidstone depot has but echoing the question by another poster, you wonder if the putting of TW depot onto the market is a reflection that they will simply run the 6/7 from Maidstone and simply have an outbase in TW for what's left.

It had been 20 years since I'd spent some real time in the area and I remembered there were always a fair few local operators but it feels that Arriva are much less dominant than they ever have been. Perhaps it's subconscious negative confirmation bias but just felt that way?

TW was intended to be the new head office site, hence the office buildings alongside the workshops. That plan never followed through. The Maidstone site is 1950s, built for the council's bus operations and has a large covered shed for vehicle parking and is in need of modernisation or redevelopment and since being built is now surrounded by houses. If any site were to have gone, it would have been that one, but the TW site is leased, so ending that might well be cheaper? It did need to house the New Enterprise operation in addition to the local services. It is dependent upon the 7 for much of the vehicle requirement so if Maidstone were taking that on entirely you'd need less space. Maidstone had it's issues with industrial relations, compared to other depots, so putting in additional work wouldn't have been something the company wished to do - but then if you've no choice but to do so?

The decline in Southern Counties is very noticeable, in an area which is densely populated, they should be making decent profits from the operations.

 

[GusB]

Please avoid using abbreviations without defining them in the first instance. I assume TW is Tunbridge Wells, but others may not have any idea. It would be appreciated if you could amend your posts accordingly.

 

[Typhoon]

Following this thread, Sheerness is confirmed as closing but (unless I have missed something) the closure of Tunbridge Wells is unconfirmed rumour (I note that the current depot is being advertised 'To let') might it actually be a 'scale back' with either a smaller, cheaper outstation in the TW area or a reduced network operated from Maidstone?

Current depot - To Let? I am assuming you mean the one on industrial Estate, they only moved in a few years ago. They used to have the New Enterprise depot in Tonbridge but I believe that has gone now.

It had been 20 years since I'd spent some real time in the area and I remembered there were always a fair few local operators but it feels that Arriva are much less dominant than they ever have been. Perhaps it's negative bias but just felt that way?

For some time there has been a number of other operators running in from the south and west - Stagecoach from Hastings and Eastbourne, Brighton & Hove from Brighton, Metrobus from Crawley. There are also a number of independents who have been around for some time such as Autocar and NuVenture (who took up the King's Hill - Tunbridge Wells route when Arriva dropped it). Hams Travel, primarily a school operator, has recently taken on some work in the Kent Weald like the 297 to Tenterden which was Arriva some time ago, then Nu Venture and Renown. Go-Coach (which now operates much of Arriva's former Sevenoaks work) has taken on some subsidised work in Tunbridge Wells that was run by the low cost Arriva off-shoot, New Enterprise. Compass now operate the route through to Crowborough that serves most parts of that town, including the station, which Arriva gave up a few years ago. Metrobus operate the two Edenbridge services from Crawley, which were either Arriva or New Enterprise many moons ago. There may be others.

There has also been a scaling back on frequencies on some of the routes and those routes that were introduced to serve the hospital at Pembury don't seem to be that well patronised with the exception of the 6X Tunbridge Wells Hospital to Maidstone Hospital which has always been busy when I've been on it.

 

[Surreyman]

Just to chuck a stone in the pond --- the Arriva London operation is now 100% Euro 6, with all older vehicle upgraded. Oldest regs are '07/'08.
They could transfer older London vehicles into the other companies to replace older stock - they have history in doing this already....
(Before any one mentions it, yes they may be owned by finance companies and have centre exits/wheelchair spaces, but 'peppercorn leasing deals'/purchase from leasing companies can be negotiated especially in the current Covid climate).
Oh and yes they may be mechanically 'worn' after 11/12 years London service but this is Arriva we are talking about here.
Of course for all we know, they may be planning on stumping up some investment for new Electric/Fuel Cell - Zero emission buses taking advantage of the new Government grants - who knows????

 

[Megafuss]

Arriva Kent Thameside accounts for year ending 31st December 2019 appeared on Companies House yesterday.

A loss of just shy of £6mil before tax. *Gulp*

 

[TitanMike]

Following this thread, Sheerness is confirmed as closing but (unless I have missed something) the closure of Tunbridge Wells is unconfirmed rumour (I note that the current depot is being advertised 'To let') might it actually be a 'scale back' with either a smaller, cheaper outstation in the TW area or a reduced network operated from Maidstone?

Has it been confirmed that Sheerness is closing? I have seen lots of different posts on social media and various forums but nothing concrete about Sheerness. I believe Sheerness operates the 334,347,349,360,361 and 367.