Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[markymark2000]

Whether you like it or no, the central model for customer queries is the most cost effective way of dealing with questions. Chances are there isn't anybody available in the depots to handle ad-hoc phone calls, same as for individual bank branches.

Interestingly most of the major companies will post on social media about diversions, late buses etc - and whilst I know the argument will be 'but what about those who don't have a smart phone', you can make that point about pretty much anything. Back in the day you could pay be cheques in stores, that's no longer the case, back in the day you could pay your gas or electricity bill by cash, again that's no longer the case. There are relatively very few people who don't have or use a smart phone - the stats for 2020 say 84% of adults have a smart phone - it was 34% in 2011 and 58% in 2015. And whilst the approx 15% who don't tend to be in the older age group, those in their 60s are already familiar with and using smartphones are going to be the 70 somethings fairly soon, so the number will continue to diminish.

The question about local input into timetabling and routing decisions is reasonable - that's absolutely something which should happen. But to go back 20 years and provide depot phone numbers and employ people to field occasional queries or lost property handling isn't viable.

Yes, I agree with you that some sort of central model for customer queries but forcing everything through a single office means no local knowledge. The Stagecoach model works best I find having the local divisions monitor their own social medias. If individual depots want to respond, that's upto the company but at least there is some degree of local knowledge in each area.

As for late buses/diversions, you say that but Arriva doesn't really post anything. Some depots are good but others are dismal. Look at the Wales twitter. With the exception of the service enhancements in Chester, the last post about any sort of service update was over a month ago. Any mention of the Sealand Road closure which affected the 10/10As at night? No, nothing. There are also some enquiries where social media isn't good enough for a specific enquiry, more so when the social media team just point you to fill in the contact form and you then have to sit and wait for a reply. Lost property for example, if you call the depot, you can normally find out quite quickly if something has been handed in and if not, they can put a message out and get a reply. There is also a lot of times when depots or local areas can explain the reasoning for something happening or can provide more upto date information. I tried calling up about a year ago to ask about a fare for a local journey. It took me over an hour in the queue and then it took a further 20 minutes for them to find the service and fare. Are you telling me that is acceptable? I was a lot more patient than other people, others would have just given up and gone by car.


I take your point on depots employing specific people to do the job but I know with Stagecoach, it's just the allocators who answer calls and do social media updates. Social media customer service, emails and general calls go to local head offices and are dealt with by one, maybe 2 people. Very small team. It's much better to have 1 person in 10 different divisions than having 10 people in a central location. Not least because there will be some degree of local knowledge and they will be able to deal with situations much, much quicker and in a way which is much better for the passengers.

 

[M803UYA]

Given your role, can I ask how much is done from the shared service centres and how does the service from these shared centres trickle down in terms of satisfaction amongst employees and customers? I know Luton deals with all the customer service and from my experience, they aren't the bed and I will avoid them where I can but I struggle to get hold of anyone within Arriva in a local area who can actually help with an enquiry as contact details are kept very hidden, this includes depot phone numbers to enquire about immediate travel enquiries like late buses, lost property or diversions. For me as a customers, this reflects very badly on the company, is that a feeling which is shared among the wider passengers and also staff within?
I also know that Newcastle/Doxford has a lot of say over local areas to the extent I believe they complete timetables and duties for the North West operations. Is this a company wide thing having networks planned by Newcastle/Doxford with minimal local knowledge? I know in my area, this has lead to a lot of services not working and then due to the lack of local knowledge, services aren't adapted to suit local needs leading to the decline in numbers and.... well... death by 100 cuts. IF Newcastle/Doxford do timetables/duties for other areas, does this negatively effect local operations and give a lack of motivation as you are told to run a network but are always micromanaged from above and not given the opportunity to act on customer comments?

I can only go from the time I was there, which was 5 years ago but the Customer Service team was as you describe, in Luton. There would be emails from them to attend to where they needed local knowledge to respond properly to those queries. When I started, I was convinced we were dealing with customers who considered they had the worst bus service in the country and the volume of complaints told their own story. I was quite proud of the fact I got that reduced to a trickle rather than a constant flow. Luton suffered from a high turnover of customer service staff, for understandable reasons. If you go to work all day and just deal with negativity then that has an effect. Earlier in my career I learned of the importance of handling complaints properly and many of them would have been fixed without the need to refer up to management - in Arriva that was a little more difficult due to the central team handling it.

Unable to answer your question about the North East as I didn't work there, but the ASC timetables, duties and rosters were compiled in Maidstone by the same people who'd be doing all the above. That merging of things didn't work at all - stakeholder management is in my mind a very different animal to compiling duties and rosters! To manage your customers properly you have to invest the time, and if your time is diverted to compiling duties and rosters (an essential function in any bus depot!) then something takes second place. The culture within the head office was pretty toxic too, there were a lot of disaffected people there who had had more than enough of continual reorganisation.

Some of them were cherrypicked by a former colleague and now work in Canterbury. Not sure I should proffer an opinion on how they're doing?

 

[markymark2000]

I can only go from the time I was there, which was 5 years ago but the Customer Service team was as you describe, in Luton. There would be emails from them to attend to where they needed local knowledge to respond properly to those queries. When I started, I was convinced we were dealing with customers who considered they had the worst bus service in the country and the volume of complaints told their own story. I was quite proud of the fact I got that reduced to a trickle rather than a constant flow. Luton suffered from a high turnover of customer service staff, for understandable reasons. If you go to work all day and just deal with negativity then that has an effect. Earlier in my career I learned of the importance of handling complaints properly and many of them would have been fixed without the need to refer up to management - in Arriva that was a little more difficult due to the central team handling it.

Unable to answer your question about the North East as I didn't work there, but the ASC timetables, duties and rosters were compiled in Maidstone by the same people who'd be doing all the above. That merging of things didn't work at all - stakeholder management is in my mind a very different animal to compiling duties and rosters! To manage your customers properly you have to invest the time, and if your time is diverted to compiling duties and rosters (an essential function in any bus depot!) then something takes second place. The culture within the head office was pretty toxic too, there were a lot of disaffected people there who had had more than enough of continual reorganisation.

Some of them were cherrypicked by a former colleague and now work in Canterbury. Not sure I should proffer an opinion on how they're doing?

Thank you for that explanation. It really helps to give an idea of what Arriva is/was/can be like from an insiders perspective. I think it shows that Arriva can be poor for passengers but can also be awful for staff.

I hope that things do start to improve and they move to a bit more of a local way of working. Arriva really don't help themselves though when it comes to complaints by having such a confusing website with minimal information on and then customer services generally aren't very useful with bare basic standard replies which can often have no relevance to the actual enquiry so with that in mind, it is no surprise Luton has a high turnover, do a poor job, you will get more abuse.

Until Arriva get a grip of things, they will keep being on a downward spiral losing passengers. I hope that they do sort themselves out or sell up quickly as the industry will not get very far when one of the biggest players is so dismal.

 

[M803UYA]

Thank you for that explanation. It really helps to give an idea of what Arriva is/was/can be like from an insiders perspective. I think it shows that Arriva can be poor for passengers but can also be awful for staff.

I hope that things do start to improve and they move to a bit more of a local way of working. Arriva really don't help themselves though when it comes to complaints by having such a confusing website with minimal information on and then customer services generally aren't very useful with bare basic standard replies which can often have no relevance to the actual enquiry so with that in mind, it is no surprise Luton has a high turnover, do a poor job, you will get more abuse.

Until Arriva get a grip of things, they will keep being on a downward spiral losing passengers. I hope that they do sort themselves out or sell up quickly as the industry will not get very far when one of the biggest players is so dismal.

With the present talk of regulatory control of the industry, someone in No10 Downing Street could always write a cheque and I'm sure DB would accept that.

 

[K219UHA]

Fair point, perhaps Shrewsbury, Oswestry & Telford would go as a block?

Oswestry already links in well with Arriva Cymru with its 2/2A/2C services into Wrexham and running common sections with Arriva Cymru, Wrexham depots 3/4/5 services. Oswestry and Wrexham depots were closely related under Crosville / Crosville Wales days, until Oswestry was sold off to Midland Red North. Oswestry, Shrewsbury and Telford link in well together and Oswestry shares some common office function support with Shrewsbury. Since Cannock has gone, there is a gap there now until you reach Tamworth.

 

[markymark2000]

Oswestry already links in well with Arriva Cymru with its 2/2A/2C services into Wrexham and running common sections with Arriva Cymru, Wrexham depots 3/4/5 services. Oswestry and Wrexham depots were closely related under Crosville / Crosville Wales days, until Oswestry was sold off to Midland Red North. Oswestry, Shrewsbury and Telford link in well together and Oswestry shares some common office function support with Shrewsbury. Since Cannock has gone, there is a gap there now until you reach Tamworth.

I'm surprised that Oswestry hasn't shut to be fair. The 2/2A/2C could be ran from Wrexham and the other routes could probably be ran by Shrewsbury.

 

[K219UHA]

I'm surprised that Oswestry hasn't shut to be fair. The 2/2A/2C could be ran from Wrexham and the other routes could probably be ran by Shrewsbury.

Oswestry in fairness holds its own, small and well turned out operation, much better than Shrewsbury (particularly on appearance) from using services from both depots. There has been talk for decades about Oswestry been closed when everyone considered Burton, Stafford and Cannock as good depots behind the main leaders of Tamworth and Telford, if anything Oswestry has grown in recent years with some additional contract wins. The 2/2A/2C services are the core money maker and does better its been said than any route in Shrewsbury for profitability, even been argued Oswestry from that respect props Shrewsbury up.

 

[markymark2000]

Oswestry in fairness holds its own, small and well turned out operation, much better than Shrewsbury (particularly on appearance) from using services from both depots. There has been talk for decades about Oswestry been closed when everyone considered Burton, Stafford and Cannock as good depots behind the main leaders of Tamworth and Telford, if anything Oswestry has grown in recent years with some additional contract wins. The 2/2A/2C services are the core money maker and does better its been said than any route in Shrewsbury for profitability, even been argued Oswestry from that respect props Shrewsbury up.

Yes but take away the 2/2A/2B/2C (bearing in mind that the 2B and 2C don't even hit Oswestry and run entirely in Wales and duplicate over Wrexham routes), what has the depot got? Nothing worth keeping. I think the only reason that things are being ran as they are is because Wrexham isn't in the Midlands division and the Midlands management know that letting any part of the 2s go to Wrexham would lose them a lot of money and so the Midlands division is competing against the Wales division.

 

[K219UHA]

Yes but take away the 2/2A/2B/2C (bearing in mind that the 2B and 2C don't even hit Oswestry and run entirely in Wales and duplicate over Wrexham routes), what has the depot got? Nothing worth keeping. I think the only reason that things are being ran as they are is because Wrexham isn't in the Midlands division and the Midlands management know that letting any part of the 2s go to Wrexham would lose them a lot of money and so the Midlands division is competing against the Wales division.

Yes indeed if Oswestry management passed to North West aka Cymru control, that would be a strong possibility Oswestry would be less viable and the changes you suggest would likely happen. I'm sure you know the history of the 2/2A/2B/2C as it was then when it went to a 30 minute service Wrexham to Oswestry and 15 minute headway from Cefn Mawr to Wrexham back in 2002/3ish and jointly operated by Oswestry and Wrexham depots. Oswestry ended up taking it all on with the three Cadets off Wrexham after head office in Sunderland decided it should be run entirely by Midlands.

The 2C actually does operate to and from Oswestry with AM and PM peak workings with Cefn shorts in the main daytime. The 2B was only reinstated to replace the 2C when covid service cuts came into play and is gone again. It could be argued that Oswestry ended up having Cymru compete on the 5 (Acrefair to Wrexham) common section, after they gained it post the demise of GHA (with D Jones mixed in). The 3 and 4 services with small buses only covered a smaller area towards Wrexham, namely Johnstown for the 4 and Rhostyllen on the 3 that was common.

Granted, Shrewsbury depot could take on the 70/70A, 576, the remainder then is very limited, the 53 been the main core route.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Speaking as an ex assistant manager working out of Maidstone 5 years ago, we were well aware that new vehicle investment was undertaken if budget was achieved. How achievable that budget was didn't register in the decision making. As ASC didn't make it's budget and has been loss making ever since it has received very little in new investment. Subsequent people who've gone in also have made any money, so it has received little, to no investment in new buses. I managed 8 months before I left working in siege conditions with bullying management and directors, demand reschedule after reschedule. At this point they were going out to bait and switch people from other operators to join them in their quest to change the business and to make more money. There was the idea that each depot should have a general manager, which was instituted. In the case of Maidstone's, he had no office, just a phone and eventually found a spare one in the main depot building after a week!
You had people in the company who stayed out of loyalty - some long timers who had decades to their name, and who were treated extremely poorly by the higher ups in the company. Gone are the days of being loyal to an employer in the modern bus industry. No longer is it a job for life, it's something you do for a while, then move on elsewhere. Noticeable that those who go there seem to have a year, then go, or they stay for life.
This lack of new bus investment is quite surprising given the population density of the Medway Towns (compared to rural East Kent) - it should be decent bus territory but on the whole provides a poor quality unreliable service using vehicles which should be on a one way trip to Barnsley and charges eye watering fares. Successive First style service changes which eliminate a bus or two from the overall peak vehicle requirement (PVR) simply spreads the overhead over fewer and fewer vehicles, ultimately leading to the closure of the depots and further reductions in vehicles.
Having decided not to invest in new vehicles, instead old ones continue to operate on services. These old vehicles do not receive preventative maintenance, rather they receive reactive maintenance and they respond to issues, rather than trying to plan for them. So, buses break down, are towed in, the 'fault' is fixed, out it goes the day after and the same fault causes another breakdown, bus is towed in, rinse and repeat. Little if anything was done to address the causes of failure (say a light bulb went out on a bus and a replacement was fitted, then it blew) - you had this battle each morning to achieve PVR.
In the midst of trying to maintain a fleet of 16/17 year old DAF deckers and Dennis Tridents and the allegedly reliable 04 plate Volvo B7TLs a number of 02/52 reg DAF deckers arrived from Leicester, thanks to their new fleet of Enviro 400 MMC buses. Out of the batch that came, two were used briefly and the other ones parked up at the top of the depot as unserviceable. The very last one of these wasn't able to make the journey south under it's own steam, instead having a lift from a tow truck. I don't think that ever entered traffic!
Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells have some very good routes which are profitable, yet they want for investment in new vehicles. You should have regular investment in new buses there which do a few years, then get moved elsewhere in the company. Like First, Arriva expects new buses to generate growth, rather than be present because the other buses have left for the scrapyard. Some of the responses I got to the question of how were these good routes to get new vehicles were quite illuminating.
My Arriva experiences were eerily similar to those described in John Cash's series of 1997 Buses articles, one of which was where he wrote of his time running Macclesfield depot as C Line. Unachieveable budgets, antiquated buses which need engineering attention, endless service changes, low staff morale all resonate with me and are easily comparable with my short time in Kent!
Arriva seem to be in the same rut First was 10 years ago - ironic given their adoption of First's strategy from 2004/5. They have a number of areas which should generate good returns, Yorkshire being one but again here I see the same mishmash of vehicles, liveries and branding that doesn't really tell me what the product is about. Remote management doesn't work in what should be a local business. Remote ideas such as liveries and branding, can work nationally when rolled out properly with the right buy in from all involved. I don't see how Arriva is there, shows any sign of being there anytime soon or that it has an idea how to get out of it's present situation. There needs to be a lot of targeted money thrown at it, but given that Arriva is one of the profitable parts of DB that is unlikely.

Some very good points there. The issue of the "localness" of the social media input is perhaps, whilst important in its own right, not the central issue.

Perhaps before more recent times, Stagecoach was the exemplar of how you could have a strong corporate image and high levels of standardisation in terms of image, (even with the variants of Stagecoach livery) and vehicle purchasing yet still have a localised approach in terms of service delivery, market knowledge, new service innovation (even when allied to more corporate stuff like the Gold concept).

Arriva has never achieved the same level of corporate management and governance vs. the demands of the local market. In fact, they have become more distanced, and the parallels with First of old are more pronounced than you believe. Concepts like Sapphire and Max were rolled out but execution was patchy and standards soon slipped. There were the inevitable depot closures as sites were sold, leading to complex interworking - always a recipe for disaster with service reliability. Of course, we can't see the trading but there are places that were excellent bus territory (such as Maidstone and Medway) that are now declining appreciably.

One particular example is the decline of what was London & Country. Now, it's not the easiest area with high car ownership, high wages and low unemployment making recruitment difficult especially when Heathrow and Gatwick are close by. There were also the attendant concerns of TfL land and tenders etc. However, under Arriva, that's a business that has withered and almost died. Stagecoach has developed its business around Guildford, whilst Go Ahead purchased the Warnham and Crawley ops and has transformed them. Now some of that is perhaps ancient history but now, it's down to Guildford just hanging on and even then, it is managed without even an MD but some person who's had it tagged onto their day job.

Yes but take away the 2/2A/2B/2C (bearing in mind that the 2B and 2C don't even hit Oswestry and run entirely in Wales and duplicate over Wrexham routes), what has the depot got? Nothing worth keeping. I think the only reason that things are being ran as they are is because Wrexham isn't in the Midlands division and the Midlands management know that letting any part of the 2s go to Wrexham would lose them a lot of money and so the Midlands division is competing against the Wales division.

Because the morning flows head into Wrexham and Shrewsbury principally so the dead mileage is fairly hefty. The site is low cost being mainly outside parking so probably pays for itself.

 

[K219UHA]

Because the morning flows head into Wrexham and Shrewsbury principally so the dead mileage is fairly hefty. The site is low cost being mainly outside parking so probably pays for itself.

Yes spot on there on all account. Much demand is heading out of Oswestry, particularly for those commuting to other bigger towns for work (done so for years on and off to Shrewsbury myself) and even a good number of college students use the services (or did pre covid) for attending larger establishments whom didn't want to remain in Oswestry. The flows into Oswestry do well too but do not typically attract people from Shrewsbury and Wrexham, so can run later in from the outbound return flow, picking up in the key villages associated with Oswestry and Chirk over the border has lots of passengers defaulting to Oswestry rather than Wrexham too.

A good number of people from Oswestry do connect onto other services into Shrewsbury for instance, to reach their destination outside of the Town Centre, you don't get the same in a small town like Oswestry.

 

[markymark2000]

Yes indeed if Oswestry management passed to North West aka Cymru control, that would be a strong possibility Oswestry would be less viable and the changes you suggest would likely happen. I'm sure you know the history of the 2/2A/2B/2C as it was then when it went to a 30 minute service Wrexham to Oswestry and 15 minute headway from Cefn Mawr to Wrexham back in 2002/3ish and jointly operated by Oswestry and Wrexham depots. Oswestry ended up taking it all on with the three Cadets off Wrexham after head office in Sunderland decided it should be run entirely by Midlands.

The 2C actually does operate to and from Oswestry with AM and PM peak workings with Cefn shorts in the main daytime. The 2B was only reinstated to replace the 2C when covid service cuts came into play and is gone again. It could be argued that Oswestry ended up having Cymru compete on the 5 (Acrefair to Wrexham) common section, after they gained it post the demise of GHA (with D Jones mixed in). The 3 and 4 services with small buses only covered a smaller area towards Wrexham, namely Johnstown for the 4 and Rhostyllen on the 3 that was common.

Granted, Shrewsbury depot could take on the 70/70A, 576, the remainder then is very limited, the 53 been the main core route.

If the whole route group was ran jointly, it doesn't make much sense Wrexham depot running to Oswestry and so that side doesn't make much sense (unless Oswestry was to close) but having just the 2B and 2C would make sense though from Wrexham. I can't say for sure but the 2C trips which do run to/from Oswestry looks very much like placement trips so they can claim BODS. Nothing major I don't think.
2B is still showing as running according to the Arriva Midlands bus open data system which was updated today hence mentioning it.

70 (not sure on a 70A) already runs with 1 bus running dead each day to/from the other end so the only cost there would really be any wage difference. 576 I question how much of that is placement trips.

53 would maybe be an issue.

Because the morning flows head into Wrexham and Shrewsbury principally so the dead mileage is fairly hefty. The site is low cost being mainly outside parking so probably pays for itself.

I partly agree. I would say though that Oswestry seem to have a good few trips which look like they are dead mileage trips and they do have some trips which start or could be accessed quicker by Shrewsbury or Wrexham depots and so it would probably level off.

It may pay for itself but as we know with Arriva, that often isn't good enough. It needs to make mega bucks or they start running it down. I think if it wasn't for the tenders, it would probably be a lot more on the cards for closing the depot as it's one or two tenders which would have high dead millage which would be the tipping point I think. Plus a good tasty tender always keeps a depot open. I know depots which have threatened to close down if they didn't win a certain contract just because of the profit it brings in (admittedly a larger contract but a contract nevertheless).
I gues it depends on the pay brackets between Oswestry and other nearby depots.

 

[Bristol LHS]

I also know that Newcastle/Doxford has a lot of say over local areas

Doxford is in Sunderland, which was the birthplace of Cowie Group.

Re Tunbridge Wells - this would be a good fit for Go-Ahead, contiguous with MetroBus and Brighton’s Regency Routes. The sort of middle class territory Go-Ahead are good at making work and tempting people out of cars (qv Oxfordshire, Poole)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I partly agree. I would say though that Oswestry seem to have a good few trips which look like they are dead mileage trips and they do have some trips which start or could be accessed quicker by Shrewsbury or Wrexham depots and so it would probably level off.

It may pay for itself but as we know with Arriva, that often isn't good enough. It needs to make mega bucks or they start running it down. I think if it wasn't for the tenders, it would probably be a lot more on the cards for closing the depot as it's one or two tenders which would have high dead millage which would be the tipping point I think. Plus a good tasty tender always keeps a depot open. I know depots which have threatened to close down if they didn't win a certain contract just because of the profit it brings in (admittedly a larger contract but a contract nevertheless).
I gues it depends on the pay brackets between Oswestry and other nearby depots.

Whilst some of the Wrexham runs could possibly be equally done from Caego, the Shrewsbury ones really are best run from Oswestry. When you factor in relatively low cost of the depot vs the dead mileage, it makes it more cost effective to still have Oswestry, helped by a few other routes. That was what I meant by it paying for itself - it's more cost effective. Whether that would be the case going forward, don't know, but that's why it's survived thus far.

 

[K219UHA]

If the whole route group was ran jointly, it doesn't make much sense Wrexham depot running to Oswestry and so that side doesn't make much sense (unless Oswestry was to close) but having just the 2B and 2C would make sense though from Wrexham. I can't say for sure but the 2C trips which do run to/from Oswestry looks very much like placement trips so they can claim BODS. Nothing major I don't think.
2B is still showing as running according to the Arriva Midlands bus open data system which was updated today hence mentioning it.

70 (not sure on a 70A) already runs with 1 bus running dead each day to/from the other end so the only cost there would really be any wage difference. 576 I question how much of that is placement trips.

53 would maybe be an issue.

Yes the routes were jointly operated until around 2006 when Oswestry took on the full service, as per what was previously outlined with head office in Sunderland (pre DB days) deciding Oswestry should run it all, so not sure what point your actually trying to make with the reply? It's due to Wrexham previous to that running 2 Wrexham to Cefn Mawr shorts and Oswestry running a hourly 2/2A Oswestry to Wrexham and a 2A hourly to Chirk. The 2B maybe showing as still running on the open data, but it hasn't done some since the normal 2/2A/2C services were reinstated, including lates on the 2 from 12th April. If you follow the open data, you would also see other services with other operators been different to what they are actually doing, a good one is the T12 shows as not serving Wrexham still and the odd working showing different times! yet has returned to normal service since 12th April and not matching the open data, beware of the open data in covid times! Changes mean services can be quickly altered and amended. Arriva haven't been on the ball with the latest service updates in fairness.

The 70 has some silly dead trips at the moment and is still on the reduced hourly service, brought in for covid service drops, they are running some S prefixed college dupes and interworking with the 576 on some trips. The dead trips were not dead trips as you may think, it was done to allow Shrewsbury depot to have an input on some trips from the last set of covid reductions (as they had a reduced PVR requirement) but has not yet been reinstated to the normal 30 minute 70/70A, all starting and ending at Oswestry, which is expected to return soon, so using the 70 as above in your example in normal circumstances is not really an factor, although Oswestry have had to take on the Shrewsbury depot allocated runs after they had a covid outbreak at the depot a month or so ago. Oswestry is on a lower wage than Shrewsbury.

 

[Simon75]

Could we see First wanting to buy bits of Arriva? As some parts of First (Leicester, Stoke-on-trent, Worcester and Slough) are 'isolated ' areas ?

Ie The Shires added to Slough,
Cheshire added to Potteries???

 

[K219UHA]

Whilst some of the Wrexham runs could possibly be equally done from Caego, the Shrewsbury ones really are best run from Oswestry. When you factor in relatively low cost of the depot vs the dead mileage, it makes it more cost effective to still have Oswestry, helped by a few other routes. That was what I meant by it paying for itself - it's more cost effective. Whether that would be the case going forward, don't know, but that's why it's survived thus far.

Again you are on the money with your reply, Oswestry has lower wages to Wrexham and Shrewsbury, lower depot overheads. If Shrewsbury depot took the whole of the 70 on, they would have a number of dead runs and early positional runs to start normal service at Oswestry for passenger flows and passenger demand and I'm talking the normal reinstated 70/70A timetable on a 30 minute frequency and not the temporary covid related one in use at the moment.

Imagine interworking the 53 off the back of the 70 or 2/2A, would be a nightmare for timekeeping and drivers hours or the waste of cost of dead miles to take it up.

 

[Rob T]

Tunbridge Wells is a good shout. Was down there six months ago. Appreciate social distancing meant older deckers being used extensively and was genuinely shocked how poor the fleet was.

Yes the T/Wells fleet is on the older side, but the registration number cannot just be used as a proxy for the condition of the vehicle.

It needs saying that the T/Wells fleet is actually very well presented and maintained and the engineering work undertaken on some of the older vehicles, received from other depots, is really to be commended.

 

[Robertj21a]

Could we see First wanting to buy bits of Arriva? As some parts of First (Leicester, Stoke-on-trent, Worcester and Slough) are 'isolated ' areas ?

Ie The Shires added to Slough,
Cheshire added to Potteries???

About the most unlikely scenario possible, in my opinion.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes the T/Wells fleet is on the older side, but the registration number cannot just be used as a proxy for the condition of the vehicle.

It needs saying that the T/Wells fleet is actually very well presented and maintained and the engineering work undertaken on some of the older vehicles, received from other depots, is really to be commended.

I said how poor the fleet was. That includes the presentation. Obviously, I can't comment on the standard of the engineering work etc but the age and presentation of the fleet was not exactly stellar.

That's not to denigrate the efforts of committed people who are trying their best but they are doing so whilst in a corporate structure that seems increasingly moribund.

About the most unlikely scenario possible, in my opinion.

I agree with you. If First buy the Shires, I will walk b*****k naked across Marlow Bridge.

 

[A0wen]

Could we see First wanting to buy bits of Arriva? As some parts of First (Leicester, Stoke-on-trent, Worcester and Slough) are 'isolated ' areas ?

Ie The Shires added to Slough,
Cheshire added to Potteries???

I'm not sure First are in a particularly acquisitive mood at the moment.

The Shires to Slough is a no though - you only need to look at the history of that one. We can debate at length the rights and wrongs of privatisation, but some of the depot carve ups were a bit curious - and Slough as part of London Country NW was always one that didn't make sense to me given its proximity to places likes Staines (which was part of LCSW) and the fact it didn't really operate into the rest of the LCNW area (i.e. there wasn't a route between Slough and Watford for example).

I think the Shires, if sold, will not go in on piece because there are different bits that different operators *might* want, but I doubt either Stagecoach or Go Ahead would want it all. I've discounted Blazefield because they know that market and struggled with it when they owned Sovereign, so doubt its changed in a way which would make it more attractive to them now, some 15 or so years later.

 

[Typhoon]

Arriva is closing its Sheerness depot and ceasing to operate all of its Sheppey services with the exception of the main route to Sittingbourne and Maidstone (334) from 16 June having reduced the frequency of some of them earlier. Whilst the depot was of no great size (c20 vehicles), it follows the withdrawal from Faversham at the start of the year.

Bus services are at risk after Arriva announced it was looking to close the Sheerness hub and axe its Island-only routes.

The company has told Kent County Council (KCC) it intends to stop running the 360, 361 and 367 from June 16.

Source https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sheern...n-will-leave-a-lot-of-people-stranded-245904/
Forgive the hysteria, they will not be stranded, independents such as Chalkwell or Travelmasters will take them over.

 

[M803UYA]

I said how poor the fleet was. That includes the presentation. Obviously, I can't comment on the standard of the engineering work etc but the age and presentation of the fleet was not exactly stellar.

That's not to denigrate the efforts of committed people who are trying their best but they are doing so whilst in a corporate structure that seems increasingly moribund.


I agree with you. If First buy the Shires, I will walk b*****k naked across Marlow Bridge.

With TW depot there are a couple of routes which I'd describe as killer routes - routes you should continually invest in and then filter the older stock through. The 7 to Tonbridge and Maidstone is one such service, should have had the Sapphire treatment, was identified as one candidate, but the company never has invested in it - as a result it's withering. The 281 received some smaller vehicles to replace Enviro 200s, and those were better able to get around the Rusthall part of the route, which was littered with parked cars. That was in 2014 when 2007 buses were replaced, so we're now at the stage where those vehicles should theoretically be replaced.
Arriva route costings operated on a traffic light system. A green coloured route was one where it's profitable, not only covering all the costs, but making some money, an amber route was one which was breaking even, and a red route was one doing neither. Each route in turn contributed to the overheads of the depot. So withdrawing a 'red' service addresses that issue, but there are still overheads in the depot, which are spread among fewer vehicles. So your amber routes turn red, green ones turn amber.
Eventually you chop so much out the depot isn't worth running anymore.
There's other ways to cut costs, such as operating older vehicles which don't have finance to pay or depreciation, obviously. The trade off there is a higher maintenance cost, or failure rate of vehicles. You might need more spare buses. Arriva was very keen on DAFs, being the importer, but even they were unable to source spare parts for their own fleet, let alone outside customers!
That was resolved by having them made, outside by local firms as required. Not sure how that helps the engineering budget, or the increased downtime. It all helps to create a siege mentality where you react all the time, constantly firefight and have little time to plan and develop things. The first thing to suffer in that climate is management of your stakeholders. And you need those people on your side. This takes up valuable time, but as we see elsewhere in the industry, that's time well spent and handsomely repaid when it's done properly.
Not sure how the head office I worked in is staffed now, but the way it worked when I was there wasn't continued with. It was a classic textbook example found in business books of a company in serious trouble, banking on new talent coming in to fix the problems, without actually doing anything to help those people. The end result is also classic textbook - in that the new talent doesn't stay very long, doesn't achieve their targets and the company is then left worser off with the same structural issues it had before all the changes were made!

Arriva is closing its Sheerness depot and ceasing to operate all of its Sheppey services with the exception of the main route to Sittingbourne and Maidstone (334) from 16 June having reduced the frequency of some of them earlier. Whilst the depot was of no great size (c20 vehicles), it follows the withdrawal from Faversham at the start of the year.



Source https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sheern...n-will-leave-a-lot-of-people-stranded-245904/
Forgive the hysteria, they will not be stranded, independents such as Chalkwell or Travelmasters will take them over.

Yes, I'd have Chalkwell down to clear up in Sittingbourne on all of the local services. Very helpful timing for them being a coach operation that has seen the loss of it's normal coach work in the past year now having a golden opportunity to expand it's bus side.

It's not just Sheppey that depot serves - all the local services around Sittingbourne are run from there. There did used to be a depot there in M&D days of course, but it closed after the loss of tenders.

 

[duncombec]

Whether you like it or no, the central model for customer queries is the most cost effective way of dealing with questions. [...]

Interestingly most of the major companies will post on social media about diversions, late buses etc - [...]

The question about local input into timetabling and routing decisions is reasonable - that's absolutely something which should happen. But to go back 20 years and provide depot phone numbers and employ people to field occasional queries or lost property handling isn't viable.

Your comment is generally fair, but the Arriva social media team are a particular weak point. It's pretty clear from some of their responses over the last few months that they only have access to the website unless they specifically contact an individual within the company, and despite the pretence of a local presence (by having different feeds for different companies), they are all handled in one place, with no filtering (numerous requests for clarification as to "where does that service go?")

A few recent examples:
- A customer enquiring about showing single fares and allowing App-purchases as an e-ticket was told "Unfortunately not as we are a private company this information doesn't need to be posted. The single has no expiry date so it is hard for us to put this onto the app and allow this to be used"!
- A few days ago, a customer asking about a resumption of local park & ride was told it would restart on 17th May. An enquirer yesterday is being told it is still under discussion with the commercial and planning teams. A third is being told "this is until further notice" Three different answers to three people in three days, one of which doesn't make sense.
- Customers enquiring about roadside timetables were directed to the council. The council contractor for roadside publicity in this area is... Arriva. A similar response was given to a complaint about buses overhanging a junction - the council put the layby there, talk to them!
- A customer enquiring about seemingly erroneous timetables on the website is just told "I believe" the buses indeed don't run at that time, rather than being directed to the Coronavirus page where the downloadable PDF confirms that they indeed are.
- A days-long road closure on a major route into the town centre didn't get a mention.
- The local feed is regularly down following "detection of suspicious activity" for days at a time.
- Customers asking about revised timetables that they can't find on the website were directed to the website page they've been looking at and couldn't find them on.. because they weren't there.

Of course, this isn't the direct fault of the individual social media personnel (although other local twitter feeds seem slightly better - I perused Yorkshire and both Midlands feeds yesterday and there were fewer issues of this sort), but it doesn't reflect well on the company if they think this sort of thing says "welcome customers, please get on our buses". Getting your customer services team to provide accurate information to the customers should be high up on the list of priorities, surely?

 

[Typhoon]

Yes, I'd have Chalkwell down to clear up in Sittingbourne on all of the local services. Very helpful timing for them being a coach operation that has seen the loss of it's normal coach work in the past year now having a golden opportunity to expand it's bus side.

It's not just Sheppey that depot serves - all the local services around Sittingbourne are run from there. There did used to be a depot there in M&D days of course, but it closed after the loss of tenders.

I think the Sittingbourne services are just 347/8/9, which require just 3 buses I think. They are going to run the 334 from the Maidstone end. (They seem to have had staff shortages at Sheerness, Maidstone has been operating some of the 334 duties and last time I was in Sittingbourne - pre-pandemic - only half the 347 journeys were operating; surprisingly, I always had Sheppey down as an unemployment blackspot - maybe all PSV drivers have migrated to Travelmasters). I don't recall the depot but I do recall the office, just off the High Street.

If Chalkwell do take on more, they might need to invest in some newer second-hand vehicles, much of what they have is of a similar vintage.

 

[M803UYA]

I think the Sittingbourne services are just 347/8/9, which require just 3 buses I think. They are going to run the 334 from the Maidstone end. (They seem to have had staff shortages at Sheerness, Maidstone has been operating some of the 334 duties and last time I was in Sittingbourne - pre-pandemic - only half the 347 journeys were operating; surprisingly, I always had Sheppey down as an unemployment blackspot - maybe all PSV drivers have migrated to Travelmasters). I don't recall the depot but I do recall the office, just off the High Street.

If Chalkwell do take on more, they might need to invest in some newer second-hand vehicles, much of what they have is of a similar vintage.

It wouldn't be difficult for Chalkwell to go shopping for some suitable midlife buses to meet the need for additional services.
Whether Travelmasters wants to go into daily intensive bus services is open to debate, as they're very welded to railway replacement work (and they were the first called up in an emergency) and schools movements. But the business case is there for them go come into the market if they so wish.

 

[Typhoon]

It wouldn't be difficult for Chalkwell to go shopping for some suitable midlife buses to meet the need for additional services.
Whether Travelmasters wants to go into daily intensive bus services is open to debate, as they're very welded to railway replacement work (and they were the first called up in an emergency) and schools movements. But the business case is there for them go come into the market if they so wish.

Chalkwell, absolutely; Arriva may have a few spare vehicles (not serious). However, I think they are still running 20 year old Solos. Sittingbourne has had a pretty ropey service from Arriva, passengers deserve a break.

I only mentioned Travelmasters because the MD seemed interested. I was surprised but they might be able to fit it round their school work on the island. I was equally surprised when Ham picked up council contracts.

 

[duncombec]

Chalkwell, absolutely; Arriva may have a few spare vehicles (not serious). However, I think they are still running 20 year old Solos. Sittingbourne has had a pretty ropey service from Arriva, passengers deserve a break.

I only mentioned Travelmasters because the MD seemed interested. I was surprised but they might be able to fit it round their school work on the island. I was equally surprised when Ham picked up council contracts.

Chalkwell have just purchased some -13- and -14- plate Solo SRs. Their vehicles are now likely newer than Arriva's on Sittingbourne locals.

The MD of Travelmasters does have past history in running local bus operations in the 90s and 00's (can't remember when that stopped). Whether the intention is actually there or it's just "putting it out there" will soon be discovered, especially in view of the niche for "first response" rail replacement they have carved out for themselves, but I have a feeling we may see a few operators who didn't consider local operation before considering it given the events of last year.

 

[RELL6L]

I said how poor the fleet was. That includes the presentation. Obviously, I can't comment on the standard of the engineering work etc but the age and presentation of the fleet was not exactly stellar.

That's not to denigrate the efforts of committed people who are trying their best but they are doing so whilst in a corporate structure that seems increasingly moribund.


I agree with you. If First buy the Shires, I will walk b*****k naked across Marlow Bridge.

I think the chances of TGW visiting Marlow in such state, at least in response to this post, are nil. I am sure First are not buying anything.

Arriva do need to do something though, their whole operation smacks of lack of interest and investment. Continued decline, Cannock, Yorkshire Tiger, Sheerness...where next?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the chances of TGW visiting Marlow in such state, at least in response to this post, are nil. I am sure First are not buying anything.

Arriva do need to do something though, their whole operation smacks of lack of interest and investment. Continued decline, Cannock, Yorkshire Tiger, Sheerness...where next?

I don't like to speculate, if only because I'm sensitive to employees potentially reading such things. So, to clarify, I have no inside line about what may or not be sold, chopped or whatever. Instead, I point only to the flat spots of Arriva operation....

When I was down there in autumn 2018, the Guildford operations had a whiff of decay about them. The Woking to Guildford routes were operated by vehicles in Max livery, Sapphire vehicles, Versas with Southend branding still partly visible, and just at a really low ebb. I think, since then, they've moved the newer Streetlites and MMCs out and put in older Citaros and Versas. It's a much reduced operation and with Rotala, Stagecoach and White Bus all with better fleets, the difference vs Arriva is even more pronounced.

Even in what were quite strong operations, the lack of investment and attention to detail is apparent. In the cold windswept North East, it was always the case that standards were higher with the former Northumbria operations vs those in Durham which, in turn, were better than those in Darlington or Teesside. That was a pattern from United days. However, the standards have slipped appreciably even north of the Tyne. We can cut firms some slack at the moment so I'm not talking of the loans from Yorkshire Tiger but it's mismatched panels, it's a number of vehicles still in Arriva 1, it's poor publicity. You see what Go North East are doing and they are continuing to eat Arriva's lunch - if it's not a seasonal express to Scarborough, it's extending their service from Bishop Auckland westwards to West Auckland, just chipping away bit by bit. Note that the Arriva NE MD isn't some fresh faced graduate...

It's a pattern you see elsewhere - Shropshire, North Wales. Spending time on stuff like Arriva Click, jettisoning the Max brand (ok, perhaps fair enough) but relegating Sapphire to something not much more than a fleetname and livery variation; it doesn't mean anything. It's no longer a byword for something above the norm.