Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Typhoon]

Has it been confirmed that Sheerness is closing? I have seen lots of different posts on social media and various forums but nothing concrete about Sheerness. I believe Sheerness operates the 334,347,349,360,361 and 367.

All I have seen is what is given in #121. KentOnline is the digital arm of the Kent Messenger media group, not wonderful but not prone to invention (although the date for closure - 16 June - is unlikely to be correct). I would be surprised if it doesn't have some basis in fact. The MP, who had heard the rumours, which apparently started about a couple of weeks ago, wrote to Arriva and does not appear to have had a response. Given that passengers, the council and other operators will have to make decisions, depending on the company confirming or denying the rumours, I would have thought there was some urgency. Most of all there will be a number of employees and their families who will be affected by the uncertainty.

Your list is correct with the exception of a couple of school routes. I gather the 334 is be retained (and run from Maidstone), the 347, 349 are not listed as being given up and could be operated from Maidstone or Gillingham (pros and cons given in previous posts).

 

[Chris 76]

If Arriva leave the Isle of Sheppey it would seem an opportunity for Chalkwell.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Not sure there's even many local operators left nowadays - anyone know?
I don't recall any small op taking on significant work off Arriva.

There's been discussion of Guildford in this thread and there's certainly been some local operators taking on Arriva routes around that depot in recent years. Not sure how significantly it compares with other places such as Sevenoaks numbers wise though, where Go Coach seem to have taken over a lot of routes, as I'm not familiar with the previous network there. Looking at over 30 vehicles worth of work lost in Surrey though.

• Sept 2012 - 24/25 (Guildford to Cranleigh), 43 (Godalming College to Cranleigh), and 45 (Rodborough School to Busbridge) lost to independent Countryliner at council retendering. When Countryliner ceased trading a month later Arriva didn't get any of the emergency tenders, nor pick up any of the replacement permanent contracts the following year (unsure if they tried), which all went to independent Buses Excetera. From the same date, the 42/44 (Guildford to Cranleigh) were also withdrawn and taken on commercially by independent Compass Bus, with I believe some de minimis funding. In total I think this was at least 8-9 vehicles worth of work and ultimately saw the decision made to close Cranleigh depot and move the remaining Surrey Hills 'country' work into Guildford depot.
• Sept 2013 - 100/200 (Guildford Park & Ride, 4 vehicles) awarded to Stagecoach as part of a new contract encompassing the existing three P&R sites, as well as a new one due to open. Later registered as commercial by Stagecoach from beginning of 2019.
• Jan 2015 - PT4 (St Peters School to Compton, 1 vehicle) taken over by Abellio Surrey.
• July 2015 - PT3 (St Peters School to Chiddingfold, 1 vehicle) taken over by Abellio Surrey.
• May 2015 - 32 (Guildford to Redhill, ~4 vehicles) withdrawn and taken on commercially by Compass, with I believe some de minimis funding.
• March 2016 - 17 (Guildford to Fairlands, 1 vehicle part of interworking) withdrawn and taken on by Stagecoach, albeit in slightly revised form.
• Sept 2016 - 28 (Guildford to Woking, 2-3 vehicles part of interworking) withdrawn and taken on commercially by Buses Excetera.
• July 2018 - 38 (Guildford to Manor Park Uni Shuttle) withdrawn after Stagecoach won new contract for buses through the University of Surrey sites.
• Sept 2018 - 81 (Woking to Barnsbury, 2 trips), 437 (Woking to Brooklands) and 462/3 (Woking to Guildford) won at retender by independent White Bus. 3 vehicles worth of work.
• Nov 2018 - 26/27 (Guildford Circulars, 8 vehicles) withdrawn following loss off access to the University of Surrey after they began a new contract with Stagecoach in the July, with routes pretty much shadowing Arriva's 26/27. Replaced with three new shorter town circulars A, B and C, competing with Stagecoach's new 1/2 and Safeguard's long established 4/5.
• Dec 2019 - Not only did they give up on their year-old competitive route B (Guildford to Park Barn, ~3 vehicles) town circular against Safeguard, but they also gave up their established route 3 (Guildford to Bellfields, 2 vehicles) which Safeguard had set up retaliatory competition on in January. Arriva had had a lot of bad publicity around this time on this route after introducing minibuses, so it would appear the Bellfields locals didn't stay loyal to incumbent Arriva, unlike the Park Barn locals who had a bit of loyalty towards incumbent Safeguard.
• April 2021 - 101 (Guildford to Spectrum Leisure Centre) withdrawn. Can't remember if this required 1 or 2 vehicles.

The only real gain Arriva have made in Surrey in the last nine years is the 479 (Guildford to Epsom), after Buses Excetera ceased trading in March 2019. That's one route gained with a current 3 vehicle requirement (5 vehicles pre-Covid), against a loss of around 30-35 vehicles worth of work during that same time period. Then add a couple more if the C to Stoughton, which has been suspended throughout Covid, doesn't ever actually resume! They did also get a couple of buses worth of school work on behalf of The Green Bus in September 2013, but these had ceased within around 16 months (see PT3/4 above).

Current depot - To Let? I am assuming you mean the one on industrial Estate, they only moved in a few years ago. They used to have the New Enterprise depot in Tonbridge but I believe that has gone now.

Post #40 of this thread has a link to the advert:-

"The current depot which they moved into in 2018 is also now advertised 'To Let'. The advert seems to show and describe both of the two buildings that make up the site.

https://www.durlings.co.uk/property...dustrial-estate-tunbridge-wells-kent-tn2-3up/"

 

[Rob T]

I was there for a week so it was first hand experience, but people are free to follow your advice. I doubt that they’ll see a dynamic, industry leading operation.

You said you were “shocked how poor the Tunbridge Wells fleet was”.

Living in the area and seeing their vehicles nearly every day, I considered it to be a totally inaccurate statement. I was just trying to correct this misconception and ensure some balance.

I then asked people to look for themselves and come to their own view and was not forcing my opinion.

I’m not aware I made any reference to any dynamic industry leading operation in the town. I doubt that Arriva is dynamic or industry leading anywhere!

 

[Typhoon]

There's been discussion of Guildford in this thread and there's certainly been some local operators taking on Arriva routes around that depot in recent years. Not sure how significantly it compares with other places such as Sevenoaks numbers wise though, where Go Coach seem to have taken over a lot of routes, as I'm not familiar with the previous network there.
Post #40 of this thread has a link to the advert:-

"The current depot which they moved into in 2018 is also now advertised 'To Let'. The advert seems to show and describe both of the two buildings that make up the site.

https://www.durlings.co.uk/property...dustrial-estate-tunbridge-wells-kent-tn2-3up/"

Thanks for the latter.

Arriva cut back its 402 Tunbridge Wells - Bromley service to operate only as far as Sevenoaks. Go-Coach replaced it with a route only as far as Orpington on a much reduced frequency (Oyster cards were not usable). Arrivas services to places like Otford. Kemsing, Sevenoaks Weald have ceased and have been taken up by Go-Coach but on much reduced frequencies. Difficult to know the numbers (and I really don't know about school services) but I would reckon about 10 vehicles mid-day so nothing like the number for Guildford but once the other cutbacks in #117 are added in plus there were one or two shoppers buses the numbers start to add up.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I then asked people to look for themselves and come to their own view and was not forcing my opinion.

Indeed - as I said, people are free to follow your advice.

For some time there has been a number of other operators running in from the south and west - Stagecoach from Hastings and Eastbourne, Brighton & Hove from Brighton, Metrobus from Crawley. There are also a number of independents who have been around for some time such as Autocar and NuVenture (who took up the King's Hill - Tunbridge Wells route when Arriva dropped it). Hams Travel, primarily a school operator, has recently taken on some work in the Kent Weald like the 297 to Tenterden which was Arriva some time ago, then Nu Venture and Renown. Go-Coach (which now operates much of Arriva's former Sevenoaks work) has taken on some subsidised work in Tunbridge Wells that was run by the low cost Arriva off-shoot, New Enterprise. Compass now operate the route through to Crowborough that serves most parts of that town, including the station, which Arriva gave up a few years ago. Metrobus operate the two Edenbridge services from Crawley, which were either Arriva or New Enterprise many moons ago. There may be others.

There has also been a scaling back on frequencies on some of the routes and those routes that were introduced to serve the hospital at Pembury don't seem to be that well patronised with the exception of the 6X Tunbridge Wells Hospital to Maidstone Hospital which has always been busy when I've been on it.

Nu-Venture has been there for some time but I think it's probably ones like Hams Travel, Compass and Metrobus that caught my eye. It would be interesting to see how large the Arriva (and New Enterprise) fleet was in the area 20 years ago compared to now.

 

[Typhoon]

Nu-Venture has been there for some time but I think it's probably ones like Hams Travel, Compass and Metrobus that caught my eye. It would be interesting to see how large the Arriva (and New Enterprise) fleet was in the area 20 years ago compared to now.

2000:

Arriva - Gillingham - 104 vehicles, Hawkhurst - 25 vehicles, Maidstone - 81 vehicles, Sheerness - 11 vehicles, Sittingbourne - 11 vehicles, Tunbridge Wells - 54 vehicles
New Enterprise - 25 vehicles

The bulk of the New Enterprise fleet were coaches, mostly for school work but they did delve into the day trip market.

I was surprised Tunbridge Wells wasn't slightly higher but, as @M803UYA has said previously for several reasons it is not very promising 'bus territory' - rural outside of the town everywhere but north, quite a lot of affluence (with pockets of deprivation), commuterland. For me it is a place to go to to get somewhere else! I guess most of the Hawkhurst routes have been lost [except 12 to Maidstone]. Some will have now be absorbed into the Tenterden Community Bus scheme. Compass are quite widely spread, I just hope they don't do a Countryliner, although their stock is much better. I think Metrobus picked up the Edenbridge routes when Countryliner went belly-up.

EDIT: oops, should have added that the 5 went to Maidstone as well!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

2000:

Arriva - Gillingham - 104 vehicles, Hawkhurst - 25 vehicles, Maidstone - 81 vehicles, Sheerness - 11 vehicles, Sittingbourne - 11 vehicles, Tunbridge Wells - 54 vehicles
New Enterprise - 25 vehicles

The bulk of the New Enterprise fleet were coaches, mostly for school work but they did delve into the day trip market.

I was surprised Tunbridge Wells wasn't slightly higher but, as @M803UYA has said previously for several reasons it is not very promising 'bus territory' - rural outside of the town everywhere but north, quite a lot of affluence (with pockets of deprivation), commuterland. For me it is a place to go to to get somewhere else! I guess most of the Hawkhurst routes have been lost [except 12 to Maidstone]. Some will have now be absorbed into the Tenterden Community Bus scheme. Compass are quite widely spread, I just hope they don't do a Countryliner, although their stock is much better. I think Metrobus picked up the Edenbridge routes when Countryliner went belly-up.

Despite the trimming back of various routes, that allocation for Tunbridge Wells doesn't look too much different from now. Has the New Enterprise work now been given up?

 

[M803UYA]

Despite the trimming back of various routes, that allocation for Tunbridge Wells doesn't look too much different from now. Has the New Enterprise work now been given up?

New Enterprise primarily operated contracts, and in 2016 the long standing and capable manager, Chris Lawrence left and joined Hams Travel and is still there. Hams might well have taken on additional work and equally New Enterprise might well have lost contracts through a lack of management attention. It's one example where you have a very capable person managing the operation day to day and entirely focused upon it, to the point head office hasn't got to do a massive amount, besides tendering for contracts and managing the customer (Kent County Council).
Arriva's stasis with the fleet has meant the likes of Nu-Venture, who have long operated older secondhand stock in what we can politely call 'interesting external condition', have caught up with Arriva and have quite a well presented fleet these days, and mostly in the same livery.

 

[alex397]

.
Arriva's stasis with the fleet has meant the likes of Nu-Venture, who have long operated older secondhand stock in what we can politely call 'interesting external condition', have caught up with Arriva and have quite a well presented fleet these days, and mostly in the same livery.

Nu-Venture are a basic operator, but do give the impression of a smart and professional company. They certainly give a better impression than Arriva do these days!
Nu-Venture do have most of their fleet in their own livery now, only occasionally with some appearing in ex-London red.

 

[markymark2000]

There's been discussion of Guildford in this thread and there's certainly been some local operators taking on Arriva routes around that depot in recent years. Not sure how significantly it compares with other places such as Sevenoaks numbers wise though, where Go Coach seem to have taken over a lot of routes, as I'm not familiar with the previous network there. Looking at over 30 vehicles worth of work lost in Surrey though.

• Sept 2012 - 24/25 (Guildford to Cranleigh), 43 (Godalming College to Cranleigh), and 45 (Rodborough School to Busbridge) lost to independent Countryliner at council retendering. When Countryliner ceased trading a month later Arriva didn't get any of the emergency tenders, nor pick up any of the replacement permanent contracts the following year (unsure if they tried), which all went to independent Buses Excetera. From the same date, the 42/44 (Guildford to Cranleigh) were also withdrawn and taken on commercially by independent Compass Bus, with I believe some de minimis funding. In total I think this was at least 8-9 vehicles worth of work and ultimately saw the decision made to close Cranleigh depot and move the remaining Surrey Hills 'country' work into Guildford depot.
• Sept 2013 - 100/200 (Guildford Park & Ride, 4 vehicles) awarded to Stagecoach as part of a new contract encompassing the existing three P&R sites, as well as a new one due to open. Later registered as commercial by Stagecoach from beginning of 2019.
• Jan 2015 - PT4 (St Peters School to Compton, 1 vehicle) taken over by Abellio Surrey.
• July 2015 - PT3 (St Peters School to Chiddingfold, 1 vehicle) taken over by Abellio Surrey.
• May 2015 - 32 (Guildford to Redhill, ~4 vehicles) withdrawn and taken on commercially by Compass, with I believe some de minimis funding.
• March 2016 - 17 (Guildford to Fairlands, 1 vehicle part of interworking) withdrawn and taken on by Stagecoach, albeit in slightly revised form.
• Sept 2016 - 28 (Guildford to Woking, 2-3 vehicles part of interworking) withdrawn and taken on commercially by Buses Excetera.
• July 2018 - 38 (Guildford to Manor Park Uni Shuttle) withdrawn after Stagecoach won new contract for buses through the University of Surrey sites.
• Sept 2018 - 81 (Woking to Barnsbury, 2 trips), 437 (Woking to Brooklands) and 462/3 (Woking to Guildford) won at retender by independent White Bus. 3 vehicles worth of work.
• Nov 2018 - 26/27 (Guildford Circulars, 8 vehicles) withdrawn following loss off access to the University of Surrey after they began a new contract with Stagecoach in the July, with routes pretty much shadowing Arriva's 26/27. Replaced with three new shorter town circulars A, B and C, competing with Stagecoach's new 1/2 and Safeguard's long established 4/5.
• Dec 2019 - Not only did they give up on their year-old competitive route B (Guildford to Park Barn, ~3 vehicles) town circular against Safeguard, but they also gave up their established route 3 (Guildford to Bellfields, 2 vehicles) which Safeguard had set up retaliatory competition on in January. Arriva had had a lot of bad publicity around this time on this route after introducing minibuses, so it would appear the Bellfields locals didn't stay loyal to incumbent Arriva, unlike the Park Barn locals who had a bit of loyalty towards incumbent Safeguard.
• April 2021 - 101 (Guildford to Spectrum Leisure Centre) withdrawn. Can't remember if this required 1 or 2 vehicles.

The only real gain Arriva have made in Surrey in the last nine years is the 479 (Guildford to Epsom), after Buses Excetera ceased trading in March 2019. That's one route gained with a current 3 vehicle requirement (5 vehicles pre-Covid), against a loss of around 30-35 vehicles worth of work during that same time period. Then add a couple more if the C to Stoughton, which has been suspended throughout Covid, doesn't ever actually resume! They did also get a couple of buses worth of school work on behalf of The Green Bus in September 2013, but these had ceased within around 16 months (see PT3/4 above).


Post #40 of this thread has a link to the advert:-

"The current depot which they moved into in 2018 is also now advertised 'To Let'. The advert seems to show and describe both of the two buildings that make up the site.

https://www.durlings.co.uk/property...dustrial-estate-tunbridge-wells-kent-tn2-3up/"

I think that this timeline while not the same, will be similar to many other Arriva depots (in terms of losing a lot of tenders and cutting back commercial routes). If Arriva stopped being greedy on tenders, they would win more of them and the work rolls in, as many independants have seen. Arriva just decided to go in much higher for tenders and now areas where I see them winning is areas where they are the only operator who could run the service, where policies are in place to favour them (such as Flintshire where Stagecoach are put on a backfoot due to them prioritising businesses in Wales) or where it's an emergency tender and transport authorities are desperate. Much of what Arriva runs now is commercial, very few contracts or minimal risk of loss contracts (Rail replacement and TFL). I think Arriva has a lot that they could do to improve their situation but I just don't think that there is a will to do anything. Based on how they have been in my local area, they seem intent on killing demand for buses then keep cutting back making routes intentionally very loss making before cutting them. They act like a kid in my area, If passengers won't come to us, we will kill all of the left over demand and so then anyone else who tries to jump on the services, will not get anywhere and we can protect some of our core towns.

If Arriva simply gave up a route when they felt that they were done with it rather than kill it off further, losses would be reduced. If Arriva started looking at dead mileage and peak flows, they could again reduce losses a lot more. I know I can only speak from my local perspective but they really don't help themselves.




With regards to potential depot sales, I think Arriva are holding onto Manchester so TFGM can buy out the depots. Saves Arriva hassle and they may get more for the depots than if they sold them to another operator.

 

[duncombec]

Some of those 04 reg double decks have transferred to Yorkshire - they're now living in a scrapyard outside Barnsley. So some of them are now going.

The Yorkshire transfers involved -58-plate Enviro 400s. The Volvos that have gone went separately, many after being on the long-term sick list for over a year.

Not sure there's even many local operators left nowadays - anyone know?
I don't recall any small op taking on significant work off Arriva.

Mostly retrenchment rather than "taking off" per se, or loss of tenders. A quick look on Bustimes should give you an idea just how much independent work is in the west of the county compared with the east - and there are more "western" independents who aren't tracking there yet, whereas in the East, just a few buses worth of daytime work don't.

Arriva Kent Thameside accounts for year ending 31st December 2019 appeared on Companies House yesterday.

A loss of just shy of £6mil before tax. *Gulp*

I'm no reader of financial accounts, but I notice a 3M dividend was paid. The majority of the losses seem to be in "administrative expenditure", with no explanatory note. It's also worth nothing this company has been reorganized twice in recent years. I believe AKT is also the first Arriva subsidiary to have posted accounts for the period in question.

Has it been confirmed that Sheerness is closing? I have seen lots of different posts on social media and various forums but nothing concrete about Sheerness. I believe Sheerness operates the 334,347,349,360,361 and 367.

I don't believe the company have formally announced anything for certain, at least to the public. Someone will tell you it is confirmed, some will tell you it is still being consulted on. It's worth considering some drivers who have allegedly 'confirmed' closure may just be expressing their expectation/dejection.

Sheerness is a small depot of 15-20 vehicles. It is stuffed on a small site between the railway line, a river, a main road and the local tip. I presume they own it, as a traditional M&D depot, but nothing in regard to what they intend to do with the site is yet known. The Tesco over the road is approx. twice as large as the bus depot site, which is open parking and a building.

Again, I don't believe anything has been formally announced in regard to the services. We can certainly estimate, but giving KCC [Kent County Council] notice doesn't necessarily mean that will be the end result. 360, 361 and 367 are wholly on Sheppey, of which the first two are commercial and the latter a KCC contract, won from Chalkwell in the last round of tendering, and needs a single bus. 347/349 require three buses.

If Arriva leave the Isle of Sheppey it would seem an opportunity for Chalkwell.

There will no doubt be interest from a variety of places. Chalkwell do have a semi-commercial network (i.e. supported afternoon/Saturday services), but their location alone doesn't mean they would be the only company interested - in any case, they may not wish to stretch their commercial wings too far.

As always in these situations, best not to engage in "whatiffery" until more becomes clear.

If Arriva stopped being greedy on tenders, they would win more of them and the work rolls in, as many independants have seen. Arriva just decided to go in much higher for tenders and now areas where I see them winning is areas where they are the only operator who could run the service, where policies are in place to favour them [...] Much of what Arriva runs now is commercial, very few contracts or minimal risk of loss contracts (Rail replacement and TFL).

Out of interest, do you know from that Arriva have "gone in much higher"? Could it be that they have decided not to bid at all, or were outbid on other factors, such as quality? How do you know it was "much" higher, and not that someone has just undercut them?

Whilst a lot of tendering authorities do use cheapest-cost only, I believe quite a number still have a quality score involved.

 

[M803UYA]

The Yorkshire transfers involved -58-plate Enviro 400s. The Volvos that have gone went separately, many after being on the long-term sick list for over a year.

There will no doubt be interest from a variety of places. Chalkwell do have a semi-commercial network (i.e. supported afternoon/Saturday services), but their location alone doesn't mean they would be the only company interested - in any case, they may not wish to stretch their commercial wings too far.

I'm no reader of financial accounts, but I notice a 3M dividend was paid. The majority of the losses seem to be in "administrative expenditure", with no explanatory note. It's also worth nothing this company has been reorganized twice in recent years. I believe AKT is also the first Arriva subsidiary to have posted accounts for the period in question.

It's weird but those same 58plate Enviro 400s I used to see in Maidstone now haunt me daily on my travels round Castleford and Wakefield in my school bus

Didn't the 17 plate Enviro 400 MMCs to go Leicester?

Chalkwell would be a likely contender for the Sittingbourne work - especially given it's commercial/semi commercial nature. You're not often presented a golden opportunity to cement your business by taking on solid work discarded by the local large bus operator. Given their coaching interests which will have been put on ice for the last 12+ months the work would be well received. They have gone through phases of consolidating their fleet - expansion followed by a long hard look at what they're doing and selling off surplus vehicles and hovering around 50 to 55 vehicles.

Looking at those accounts, the £17m for administrative expenses would include some measure of the head office costs which would be borne by Arriva Kent & Surrey (payroll etc) - how that has jumped by £7m is a mystery but it is comforting to know, that despite being loss making, Berlin has taken the dividend regardless. It will be interesting to see the situation at Kent & Surrey given that the businesses are connected.

Different groups show the costs part on the accounts in different ways, but the turnover (income) figure less operating costs (or cost of sales as shown on these accounts) gives you a pretax profit. So on that it's a profitable business, but it's being pulled down by the other costs.

Worth noting that the financial year being reported on doesn't cover 2020 at all, it ends on 31/12/2019! So, one part of the business isn't doing very well.

 

[westcoaster]

Wonder if someone like uno might be interested in Luton (Luton university) they expanded into Cranfield and Northampton

 

[duncombec]

It's weird but those same 58plate Enviro 400s I used to see in Maidstone now haunt me daily on my travels round Castleford and Wakefield in my school bus

Didn't the 17 plate Enviro 400 MMCs to go Leicester?

There were three major swaps at the beginning of the year:

3. The easiest one last. A straight swap of Streetlites at Northfleet with Enviro 200 MMCs at Gillingham (which had previously been at Guildford, and before that at Gillingham, where they were too long for the route it was intended to use them on) to allow the 477 to have LEZ [London Low Emission Zone] compliant vehicles.

2. Citaros from Harlow to Guildford, E200s from Guildford to Maidstone, E200 MMCs from Maidstone to Harlow. Balance made up with two Sapphire E200 MMCs from Gillingham, countered with two Streetlites from Maidstone (themselves covered by the moves from Guildford). The "old" E200s had only just been moved in to Guildford, swapped with the E200MMCs moved in step 3, to lower Guildford's costs. One of the Sapphires has since flambeed itself. All this to allow the 724 to enter the CAZ [Clean Air Zone] at Heathrow. Original plan was to move Versas from Guildford to Maidstone, but Kent fleets have never quite got on with those.

1. The big one: 66 vehicles were involved all told, 46 involving Kent fleets. Having abandoned the Southend E400MMCs, older Volvo B7s and B9s from Leicester to various depots in Kent (B7s to Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells, B9s to Gillingham, -58- plate Enviro 400s from Maidstone and Sapphire E4000MMCs from Gillingham* both to Yorkshire, something else with Euro VI upgrades from Yorkshire to Leicester, for the now cancelled CAZ in Leicester. I can't quite recall the reason it wasn't a straight swap. There were also movements direct between Leicester and Yorkshire, and two Solos to Kent. Some of said vehicles from Leicester haven't turned a wheel in service in Kent (including, I believe, all the B9s), indeed, one B7 hasn't even arrived yet.**

* There was also one vehicle which came from Shires, 6529, which was shared between Tunbridge Wells and Guildford that also went. It was used for school capacity by TW in the week, and then went to Guildford for rail replacement duties at the weekend.
** I'm using B7/B9 for shorthand, rather than specifying their Ts or Ls.

I think I got them all.

[Edit: one of the B9s made it into service on Monday, more than 3 months after arriving]

 

[overthewater]

Why does everyone think Luton is up for grabs?

 

[markymark2000]

There will no doubt be interest from a variety of places. Chalkwell do have a semi-commercial network (i.e. supported afternoon/Saturday services), but their location alone doesn't mean they would be the only company interested - in any case, they may not wish to stretch their commercial wings too far.

Did Chalkwell used to do service work on Sheppy but scaled back their operations? For some reason, in my head, they used to do more than they do now in terms of service work.

Travelmasters have put their hat into the ring for looking into something (as noted in the KentOnline news article in post #82

Out of interest, do you know from that Arriva have "gone in much higher"? Could it be that they have decided not to bid at all, or were outbid on other factors, such as quality? How do you know it was "much" higher, and not that someone has just undercut them?

Whilst a lot of tendering authorities do use cheapest-cost only, I believe quite a number still have a quality score involved.

You can tell since firstly they struggle to win tenders even if they should win them like being the closest operator. How can operators from 10+ miles away winning a tender over an operator whos on the doorstep. Secondly, contracts can rise very quickly if Arriva win a service. I believe the tender price shot up by £30k when Arriva won a tender (Stagecoach forgot to bid according to depot staff and drivers). How does a route have a cost increase of £30k from Stagecoach to Arriva bearing in mind that the tender was no different and Arriva aren't that far away. There are taxi firms who have popped up and started running normal service work because they put in randomly for a route and still got it cheaper than Arriva. Arriva want a lot more profit margin from tenders and hence they tend not to win many.

Arriva I know do go in for contracts because of people in the know. Prices I find out via FOI requests to councils.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Did Chalkwell used to do service work on Sheppy but scaled back their operations? For some reason, in my head, they used to do more than they do now in terms of service work.

Chalkwell operated the 367 between Sheerness and Warden Point as recently as April 2019, when Arriva took over operation. At one time it had route branding as the 'Harrier'.

 

[markymark2000]

Chalkwell operated the 367 between Sheerness and Warden Point as recently as April 2019, when Arriva took over operation. At one time it had route branding as the 'Harrier'.

Did they ever run more service work than that? I thought they had a little network on the go and then scaled it all back?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Did they ever run more service work than that? I thought they had a little network on the go and then scaled it all back?

I think the 326 Sittingbourne to Chatham also used to start/end in Sheerness until around the same time in 2019. Going a few years further back to around 2015(ish) there was a 324 to Canterbury and 339 to Hempstead Valley, although I think these might have been more limited shopper services rather than frequent regular services? They still have a small island presence with school route(s). Some deckers have carried 'Islandbuses' logos. Going further back than that, hopefully someone more in the know can enlighten us.

 

[A0wen]

Wonder if someone like uno might be interested in Luton (Luton university) they expanded into Cranfield and Northampton

Doubt it.

Uno have been stretched at various times. And their expansions in both Cranfield and Northampton were driven AIUI by the fact those universities were supporting the bus routes to their sites. I'm not aware of a similar situation in Luton ?

If Luton got sold, I still think Stagecoach is more likely and it would fit with Stagecoach East.

 

[Surreyman]

Diesel theft from Arriva - Guildford

From 'Surreylive'

"Police believe an unknown amount of fuel leaked into the River Wey during the theft. While theenvironment agency says there is no report of wildlife being affected yet, but its impact is being evaluated.

Emma Pengelly, reporter for SurreyLive, was at the scene. She said: "When I got here at about 2pm I saw three Environment Agency cars all leaving the site. They had been here since 10am.


"The first thing was a really strong smell of fuel or diesel which was pungent in the air. They had put bungs in the water to collect the diesel.

"The square absorbent patches, which were white, are now turning yellow and brown, having soaked up the fuel."


The target of the reported theft was the Arriva UK bus depot on Leas Road, Guildford.

A spokesperson for Arriva UK said: "We can confirm that there was a break-in at our Guildford Depot last night. This matter has been reported to the Police and we will do everything we can to assist them and other local authorities with their investigations."

 

[Typhoon]

Did Chalkwell used to do service work on Sheppy but scaled back their operations? For some reason, in my head, they used to do more than they do now in terms of service work.

I think the 326 Sittingbourne to Chatham also used to start/end in Sheerness until around the same time in 2019. Going a few years further back to around 2015(ish) there was a 324 to Canterbury and 339 to Hempstead Valley, although I think these might have been more limited shopper services rather than frequent regular services? They still have a small island presence with school route(s). Some deckers have carried 'Islandbuses' logos. Going further back than that, hopefully someone more in the know can enlighten us.

They did have a bigger network on Sheppey but it was deceptive. I think (so may be wrong) that they tried running some buses from Sittingbourne over to Sheerness and it may well have been extensions of the 326/7 but I don't think it can have lasted very long, nor do I think it was all journeys. I've looked at a range of bus maps and timetables and none give it. Otherwise they used to run visitors buses from the mainland to the island's prisons and, as @Flange Squeal suggests, buses to Canterbury, Hempstead Valley (and possibly somewhere else as well). These were definitely shopper's buses, one journey, one or two days a week. Certainly the Canterbury bus parked up at a shopping centre before returning. So quite a few routes, requiring one bus on only some days a week. Originally the shopper's buses had been run by Arriva who run them from the east of the island (Leysdown) and one served Maidstone (probably on market day).

Despite the trimming back of various routes, that allocation for Tunbridge Wells doesn't look too much different from now. Has the New Enterprise work now been given up?

The school work was largely closed door so will require a bit of research, hopefully I will get back to you with something positive. Otherwise the 6X (Tunbridge Wells Hospital to Maidstone Hospital) has gone to Arriva; some of the subsidised routes they ran in the west of the county no longer exist (I'm not surprised, I caught one once, the driver was somewhat surprised that I wanted to catch it and I was the only passenger for the majority of the journey).

 

[M803UYA]

The school work was largely closed door so will require a bit of research, hopefully I will get back to you with something positive. Otherwise the 6X (Tunbridge Wells Hospital to Maidstone Hospital) has gone to Arriva; some of the subsidised routes they ran in the west of the county no longer exist (I'm not surprised, I caught one once, the driver was somewhat surprised that I wanted to catch it and I was the only passenger for the majority of the journey).

From my increasingly fuzzy 5 year old memory, New Enterprise operated directly tendered schools contracts for Kent County Council. There are two types of school services in Kent, those provided under contract to Kent County, tendered directly and a number of commercial services put on for schoolchildren.

One oddity with Kent is that they retain a selective education system (11 plus exams and Grammar Schools), therefore much of the school journeys are discretionary travel. In East Kent territory you had services from Lydd to Dover which were picking up school children for the entire length of the journey.

East Kent didn't (and might still not?) allow child returns prior to 0930 - so their Freedom pass reimbursement rate was higher than Arriva's - and that is one reason why Stagecoach's operations have expanded, whilst Arriva's has contracted. Freedom Pass works similar to concessionary fare reimbursements, but the amounts are fixed. Parents purchase an annual pass from Kent County and this permits travel on commercial services.

So, the likes of Go Coach has expanded their operation massively thanks to the scheme, as have Stagecoach. Arriva has had the spike in passengers, but in financial terms is worse off as children travelling are going long distances (such as service 5 from Hawkhurst to Maidstone, or the 12 from Tenterden to Maidstone) on freedom passes meaning the company can't resell the seat. The decision at Arriva was made prior to the freedom pass introduction, so it's worked for all the operators in Kent, except Arriva.

Given the selective education system, Kent County directly tender some schools services but there are a number of commercial schools services, registered by the bus operators on which Kent County pays per passenger. When I worked at East Kent (4/5 years prior to Arriva) we had continual increases in peak vehicle requirement as peak only buses were needed for the extra school children travelling - and they were being reimbursed at the rate of an adult single fare thanks the 0930 restrictions. This meant there were spare buses sitting round offpeak, and those were then used to beef up the frequencies of services like the 16. Ultimately, those offpeak workings turned into peak workings and Jeremy Cooper found he had the nice problem of full up buses and a need to put more of them on the road.

So this is why in part Arriva Kent has the issues it has - and that's unique to them. The rest of the issues, such as poor rates of fleet replacement, slipping profit margins and increasingly marginal routes are something Arriva is having to deal with nationally.

 

[Typhoon]

One oddity with Kent is that they retain a selective education system (11 plus exams and Grammar Schools), therefore much of the school journeys are discretionary travel. In East Kent territory you had services from Lydd to Dover which were picking up school children for the entire length of the journey.

For the benefit of those who are not familiar with Kent's secondary education system, it is rather more complicated than that. Grammar schools may be mixed or single sex and there are also 'super selective' grammar schools, that require higher marks in the Kent Tests than the run-of-the-mill grammar. Some schools also set their own 11 plus exams which may be easier than the Kent Test (some grammars have had problems filling their quota from Kent Test passes in the past) or more difficult. Additionally some Kent grammars take students from outside of the county - obviously this is more likely to affect those in the west (Arriva-land); equally some parents of those who fail the Kent Test then try to get their child into all-ability schools in neighbouring counties. All this leads to some students travelling some distance. For instance, I sometimes used to catch a bus in Faversham, where school pupils got on and were still on 90 minutes (or even) later when I got off in Maidstone. There is a grammar school in Faversham, and in Sittingbourne (through which the bus passed) but both were mixed while Maidstone has single sex grammars, which, maybe, their parents preferred. As you quite rightly state, these pupils take a seat for the whole journey, which led to overcrowding and (adults) standing. Doubtless this might have nudged some to look at alternative methods of getting to work (reducing bus revenue). Tunbridge Wells used to be (may still be) congested from the north and east at morning peaks on school days with both scheduled and school buses; Maidstone had issues with traffic crossing the bridge over the Medway; both result in reliability issues post peak.

Every year, when the price of the Freedom Pass (which now appears to be called KCC Travel Saver, possibly because it doesn't have quite the same freedom it once did) is announced, usually showing a slight increase on the year before, parents are up in arms, some insisting that it should be a token fee or free putting more pressure on politicians to reign in any rises so their is no incentive for the Council to be more generous with the likes of Arriva who may have been disadvantaged.

 

[M803UYA]

For the benefit of those who are not familiar with Kent's secondary education system, it is rather more complicated than that. Grammar schools may be mixed or single sex and there are also 'super selective' grammar schools, that require higher marks in the Kent Tests than the run-of-the-mill grammar. Some schools also set their own 11 plus exams which may be easier than the Kent Test (some grammars have had problems filling their quota from Kent Test passes in the past) or more difficult. Additionally some Kent grammars take students from outside of the county - obviously this is more likely to affect those in the west (Arriva-land); equally some parents of those who fail the Kent Test then try to get their child into all-ability schools in neighbouring counties. All this leads to some students travelling some distance. For instance, I sometimes used to catch a bus in Faversham, where school pupils got on and were still on 90 minutes (or even) later when I got off in Maidstone. There is a grammar school in Faversham, and in Sittingbourne (through which the bus passed) but both were mixed while Maidstone has single sex grammars, which, maybe, their parents preferred. As you quite rightly state, these pupils take a seat for the whole journey, which led to overcrowding and (adults) standing. Doubtless this might have nudged some to look at alternative methods of getting to work (reducing bus revenue). Tunbridge Wells used to be (may still be) congested from the north and east at morning peaks on school days with both scheduled and school buses; Maidstone had issues with traffic crossing the bridge over the Medway; both result in reliability issues post peak.

Every year, when the price of the Freedom Pass (which now appears to be called KCC Travel Saver, possibly because it doesn't have quite the same freedom it once did) is announced, usually showing a slight increase on the year before, parents are up in arms, some insisting that it should be a token fee or free putting more pressure on politicians to reign in any rises so their is no incentive for the Council to be more generous with the likes of Arriva who may have been disadvantaged.

Thanks for that, I sit corrected.

 

[Typhoon]

Thanks for that, I sit corrected.

Not so much correction, it was intended as amplification. The first line was not referring to you, apologies if you thought it did, I had guessed that you were trying to keep it simple; however the casual reader might not appreciate the complexity of the system and suspect that we southerners were over-reacting. The situation seems to have got worse in the last few years, especially as most areas are having extensive house building but not matched by school building (there are a few very unpopular schools). I have every sympathy with operators trying to provide a transport service in Kent. Parents are told that it is all about choice, then they find it is not their choice but those of a small number of schools who select the students they think are most likely to keep them near the top of the league tables with scant regard for the effect it has on others - people or services. And from what you have written (and I did not know about the funding model) it is not going to be any easier any time soon.
Incidentally, I thought it was still called the Freedom Pass, it was only when I tried to find the cost (£360 for 20/21) that I found its name had changed. It used to be usable in the evening but now Arriva and Stagecoach allow its use voluntarily, so I guess it can be taken away; other operators - no idea.

EDIT - 18:53 South East Today reports that Arriva had told them that they 'are actively discussing the closure' of Sheerness depot (following a piece on a woman with mobility issues on Sheppey - she mentioned how the service had deteriorated.)

Despite the trimming back of various routes, that allocation for Tunbridge Wells doesn't look too much different from now. Has the New Enterprise work now been given up?

Some New Enterprise work has been maintained:
6X - Maidstone Hospital & the hospital at Pembury (near Tunbridge Wells). A couple of vehicles during the day, maybe more in the peak as, whenever I've used it, it has been pretty full with hospital staff.
The Kings Hill Connect services, developer funded services between the Kings Hill 'village' and rail stations (including Maidstone). They used to use former Fastrack buses (may still do). Arriva currently operate six school bus routes that serve the 'village', I bet there is a fair chance that most would have been operated by New Enterprise at some time given the proximity of the development to Tonbridge and school work was New Enterprise's stock in trade.. Difficult to track as service numbers change over the years. There is no secondary school in the 'village'.
A Tonbridge local service (1 vehicle Mon - Sat).
A Saturday only service.

I have used 'village' because it is called one but is really a housing estate plonked on a former wartime aerodrome.

 

[317 forever]

Do they have anything left in North Wales? If so, it might be an opportunity for the WG to take it in house as it seems clear that they want to.

Alternatively, it could give Comfort DelGro a foothold in Wales as they now have New Adventure Travel in the south. I think Comfort DelGro are more likely suitors for that operation than any of the other plc's.

That said, I do not know of Arriva Bus Wales being for sale, although I think DB-Arriva could agree any sale at what they consider a reasonable price.

Not sure there's even many local operators left nowadays - anyone know?
I don't recall any small op taking on significant work off Arriva.

One that I can think of is McGills having a toehold on Clydeside, then taking over Greenock, then the rest of that Arriva operation.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Chalkwell have announced that they will be taking on the 360 and 361 from Monday 12th July. No timetables have been released yet. Here is their news release:

https://chalkwell.co.uk/chalkwell-to-take-over-360-361-bus-service/

Sittingbourne bus and coach operator Chalkwell are to step in and replace the 360/361 bus services, currently operated by Arriva.

Arriva were due to end these services on 13th June, however this has been moved back to the 11th July. Chalkwell will commence the new services from Monday 12th July, the day after Arriva stop running..

The new Chalkwell services will replace buses currently serving Leysdown, Eastchurch, Minster, Queenborough, Rushenden and Sheerness.
With Arriva withdrawing. residents were faced with the prospect of being cut off from essential services, including education, shopping and access to medical facilities. However, it is a local independent business that is stepping in to ensure continuity.

Chalkwell Managing Director, Roland Eglinton stated “Our business was formed in Sheerness by my late grandfather in 1931, making 2021 our 90th year. We have a long association with serving the people of Sheppey, and we currently operate buses across Swale and Medway to a high standard, including daily buses from Sheerness and Minster to Sittingbourne schools. These new services are a natural evolution for our business, and we very much look forwards to working with the people of Sheppey”.

Full timetables will be provided in due course, although the new services will replicate the existing Arriva ones where possible.

To receive updates on the Chalkwell 360.361 services and be sent a timetable closer to the time, register your details at https://www.chalkwell.co.uk/sheppeybuses

Current Chalkwell services can be found at www.chalkwell.co.uk

 

[Typhoon]

Chalkwell have announced that they will be taking on the 360 and 361 from Monday 12th July. No timetables have been released yet. Here is their news release:

https://chalkwell.co.uk/chalkwell-to-take-over-360-361-bus-service/

Thank you for this. I have checked with the Arriva website, nothing, 'no service updates for your region'. (That says a lot, although putting back the implementation period does help - I just hope the staff in Sheerness are being kept up-to-date).

The 367 is a KCC route, previously operated by Chalkwell so news will presumably come later. It might even be considered for one of KCCs taxibus schemes.