Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[GALLANTON]

The point is we prefer to use the train, it’s far quicker.

No bus services in the vicinity of Langside or Maxwell Park I would add.

I get the impression some seem to support elements of this proposal as long as it’s somewhere else that takes the cuts.

I understand that as I'm in the exact same position where I live, unfortunately, while my local train services are being cut I don't have the luxury of high-frequency bus services nearby as an alternative.

I'll give you Maxwell Park as its nearest service is the 34/34A which doesn't go into the City Centre however Langside station is only a short walk away from Kilmarnock Road where you have Firsts 38 services running every few minutes.

 

[snookertam]

The biggest farce about the Cathcart circle is that some of them run empty stock in the path of the booked passenger train. What does that achieve? Might same a few kW of electricity but that's about it.

I believe the purpose of the empty movements is driver refresher runs, but it does put into perspective the ridiculous concept of ‘empty seat miles’ or whatever they used.

 

[kez19]

I think with this recent announcement that we’re getting an insight of what life under Transport Scotland will be like for Scotrail in the future. One just needs to look at the Cal Mac fiasco to see a working example of the ineptitude within TS. It really doesn’t fill me with confidence at all.

I agree with this point but do we think that there will be scrutiny towards Scottish Government, Scotrail and relevant parties when things go wrong or will it be swept under as usual? I agree it doesn’t fill me with confidence (at first yes in a way but not now).

 

[Jordan1296]

The £330 million or therebouts dualling most of the line between Aberdeen and Inverurie seems such a waste now. All the trains I've been on are almost empty.

I can see why they are cutting back but it does send the wrong message unfortunately.

The Aberdeen/Inverurie-Montrose timetable as well as the Aberdeen-Inverness timetable aren’t seeing any cuts. Just minor retimings.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Public reception on Twitter isn't great at all, with people just wanting them to leave the timetables alone.

 

[haggishunter]

The Aberdeen/Inverurie-Montrose timetable as well as the Aberdeen-Inverness timetable aren’t seeing any cuts. Just minor retimings.

Aberdeen - Inverness might not be seeing cuts, but the Aberdeen Inverness Improvement Project infrastructure work was to enable hourly end to end service between Inverness and Aberdeen as I understand it? So an expected service enhancement parked sadly.

As mentioned upthread it’s also disappointing to see the number of class 170 services on the proposed Highland Mainline timetable. This is a point I’ll definitely be making in response to the consultation.

Worse the draft timetable states they’ll be 3 car 170s!

The detailed route documents show the E&G generating an operating surplus. The 15min frequency throughout the day drove up traffic did it not? Would a 20min schedule all day not be better here?

 

[John Bishop]

Aberdeen - Inverness might not be seeing cuts, but the Aberdeen Inverness Improvement Project infrastructure work was to enable hourly end to end service between Inverness and Aberdeen as I understand it? So an expected service enhancement parked sadly.

As mentioned upthread it’s also disappointing to see the number of class 170 services on the proposed Highland Mainline timetable. This is a point I’ll definitely be making in response to the consultation.

Worse the draft timetable states they’ll be 3 car 170s!

The detailed route documents show the E&G generating an operating surplus. The 15min frequency throughout the day drove up traffic did it not? Would a 20min schedule all day not be better here?

Which was what the HSTs were brought in for. So will we see rakes of HSTs parked up with no work? If so, that is another waste of money to have assets sitting doing nothing.

 

[cf111]

I agree with this point but do we think that there will be scrutiny towards Scottish Government, Scotrail and relevant parties when things go wrong or will it be swept under as usual? I agree it doesn’t fill me with confidence (at first yes in a way but not now).

It's easier for the Scottish Government to ignore or bury the CMAL ferry nightmare as less of the population use the Clyde and Hebridean ferry network when compared to the railway network. If things went downhill, or there was the same absurd waste of public money, with Scotrail under public ownership as there is with CMAL/CalMac then there would be national uproar purely because of the higher number of people it would affect.

I say this as someone who lives on Skye and who uses the Uig-Tarbert/Lochmaddy route and occasionally others on a regular basis. Much like Scotrail, the vast majority of front-line staff are all cheery, professional and doing their best with an aging fleet. Parts of senior management and government however do not appear interested in the experiences of passengers and indeed their staff.

 

[backontrack]

It's easier for the Scottish Government to ignore or bury the CMAL ferry nightmare as less of the population use the Clyde and Hebridean ferry network when compared to the railway network. If things went downhill, or there was the same absurd waste of public money, with Scotrail under public ownership as there is with CMAL/CalMac then there would be national uproar purely because of the higher number of people it would affect.

I say this as someone who lives on Skye and who uses the Uig-Tarbert/Lochmaddy route and occasionally others on a regular basis. Much like Scotrail, the vast majority of front-line staff are all cheery, professional and doing their best with an aging fleet. Parts of senior management and government however do not appear interested in the experiences of passengers and indeed their staff.

There seems to be a general outlook at Holyrood that island communities and rural areas are a far-flung burden, and should be there purely to look pretty and attract tourist cash.

 

[GordonT]

Aberdeen - Inverness might not be seeing cuts, but the Aberdeen Inverness Improvement Project infrastructure work was to enable hourly end to end service between Inverness and Aberdeen as I understand it? So an expected service enhancement parked sadly.

As mentioned upthread it’s also disappointing to see the number of class 170 services on the proposed Highland Mainline timetable. This is a point I’ll definitely be making in response to the consultation.

Worse the draft timetable states they’ll be 3 car 170s!

The detailed route documents show the E&G generating an operating surplus. The 15min frequency throughout the day drove up traffic did it not? Would a 20min schedule all day not be better here?

The detailed route documents show the E&G generating an operating surplus. The 15min frequency throughout the day drove up traffic did it not? Would a 20min schedule all day not be better here?

The reason 20-minute frequencies are avoided like the plague is to do with the need to path other even-interval services in between the E&G services and this requires either a 15ms or 30ms pattern for the E&G.

 

[Starmill]

So an expected service enhancement parked sadly.

This is happening around the whole of thr UK, tacitly or openly.

 

[Frankton Junct]

For the people who use the Cathcart Circle who are losing services there is always the option of the far more frequent bus services in the area.

The bus service from Shawlands Station to Glasgow Central has 15 stops, not counting traffic signals, driver changes, and vans and other vehicles parked in the non-contiguous bus lane.

Inner suburban routes need a predictable clockface timetable throughout the day, otherwise people will use their cars (most of whom would never step onto a bus).

 

[Dr Day]

Appreciate no one on here ever wants to make any cutbacks but if this was in speculative ideas as ‘how would you cut back £40m of net operating cost from Scotrail’ what alternative better suggestions do folk have?
I’m sure Scotrail would genuinely appreciate responses including constructive alternatives to these proposals to tackle the financial issues they/Transport Scotland face.

 

[Falcon1200]

Appreciate no one on here ever wants to make any cutbacks but if this was in speculative ideas as ‘how would you cut back £40m of net operating cost from Scotrail’ what alternative better suggestions do folk have?
I’m sure Scotrail would genuinely appreciate responses including constructive alternatives to these proposals to tackle the financial issues they/Transport Scotland face.

Given the fall in commuting as a result of WFH I would have expected to see peak hour additionals disappear and a regular off-peak TT operate through the day, perhaps with some strengthening at certain times if required. Not the savage cuts Scotrail are proposing.

 

[Starmill]

Given the fall in commuting as a result of WFH I would have expected to see peak hour additionals disappear and a regular off-peak TT operate through the day, perhaps with some strengthening at certain times if required. Not the savage cuts Scotrail are proposing.

The key is that Scottish Ministers will fund a certain level of opex subsidy. That level isn't going to be sufficient to run the December 2019 timetable, plus planned expansions, into at least the next five years. So there are two options:

• Convince Kate Forbes and Nicola Sturgeon to pay more for railways, every year, for the foreseeable
• Cut the service in the best possible way to save that amount of money

I think everyone would rather the former, especially given the recent news about the Cooperation Agreement. However nobody yet knows what is going to happen.

 

[Dr Day]

Given the fall in commuting as a result of WFH I would have expected to see peak hour additionals disappear and a regular off-peak TT operate through the day, perhaps with some strengthening at certain times if required. Not the savage cuts Scotrail are proposing.

Perhaps that didn’t generate the level of savings they needed? Hard for any of us on here to say without access to the cost information

 

[HS2isgood]

Appreciate no one on here ever wants to make any cutbacks but if this was in speculative ideas as ‘how would you cut back £40m of net operating cost from Scotrail’ what alternative better suggestions do folk have?
I’m sure Scotrail would genuinely appreciate responses including constructive alternatives to these proposals to tackle the financial issues they/Transport Scotland face.

We could create a thread on the speculative s about ScotRail rationalisation, but it'd be a sad one.

 

[kez19]

It's easier for the Scottish Government to ignore or bury the CMAL ferry nightmare as less of the population use the Clyde and Hebridean ferry network when compared to the railway network. If things went downhill, or there was the same absurd waste of public money, with Scotrail under public ownership as there is with CMAL/CalMac then there would be national uproar purely because of the higher number of people it would affect.

I say this as someone who lives on Skye and who uses the Uig-Tarbert/Lochmaddy route and occasionally others on a regular basis. Much like Scotrail, the vast majority of front-line staff are all cheery, professional and doing their best with an aging fleet. Parts of senior management and government however do not appear interested in the experiences of passengers and indeed their staff.

Therein lies the problem, they appear interested if its not working out but will get the publicity if its needed but in general they don't care.

If anything if media are on scene they'll be more than happy say things are wonderful than what is really going on to us the public. As for me I just find this whole consultation process a waste of time, they'll not listen they'll just go ahead with the cuts (so why should we then the public pay attention to these public figures if they don't listen to us?).

I know its a bit off topic slightly but I find even the ferry fiasco a joke in itself - in short stop pissing up in the wind actually get it sorted and get these ferries out to the communities that need/pay for these services!

 

[Newtraveller58]

Appreciate no one on here ever wants to make any cutbacks but if this was in speculative ideas as ‘how would you cut back £40m of net operating cost from Scotrail’ what alternative better suggestions do folk have?
I’m sure Scotrail would genuinely appreciate responses including constructive alternatives to these proposals to tackle the financial issues they/Transport Scotland face.

There are plenty of ways to save money but they would not be politically acceptable. ScotRail have survived for nearly 18 months with ticket examiners not examining tickets. They could introduce penalty fares and reduce the amount of ticket examination, reduce station staffing with more use of ticket machines, increase driver only operation etc.

More importantly, getting more passengers on the trains paying fares would increase revenue to reduce the need to save money. In my experience the amount of ticketless travel I observe at present is quite high as people don’t bother to buy a ticket unless challenged. Also the Scottish Government and the railway industry need to encourage people back onto trains having told them how dangerous trains were for the past year (as opposed to “very safe” car travel).

Reducing services as proposed, I believe, will reduce revenue significantly as existing passengers transfer to buses as a result of increased journey times and longer waiting times.

 

[Deltic1961]

Surely the question surrounding peak fares needs to addressed too. For example the Aberdeen to Inverness service just after 5pm is still peak, but it's almost empty nowadays.

 

[applepie2100]

The advert below is now being broadcast here in Scotland. How it matches up with the consultation and proposed timetable is something probably only an SNP politician could explain with a straight face:

It feels very much like most of the good work done under First Group is now being completely undone both by Abellio (also seen in their other franchises, most notably EMR) and now by the Scottish Assembly through Transport Scotland. I appreciate that Covid has lead to big changes in travel patterns but rather than wholesale reductions in services we should be looking at ways to encourage railway usage with services run by comfortable, modern rolling stock with value for money fares which make people want to get out of their cars. This achieves nothing but the exact opposite.

 

[Starmill]

We could create a thread on the speculative s about ScotRail rationalisation, but it'd be a sad one.

There was a long discussion about cost cutting more than a year ago. Safe to say many people are unhappy with the ideas: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-can-the-railway-cut-operational-expenditure.205973/

 

[Journeyman]

The advert below is now being broadcast here in Scotland. How it matches up with the consultation and proposed timetable is something probably only an SNP politician could explain with a straight face:

Good grief. Just don't try going anywhere on a Sunday.

 

[Dr Day]

transfer to buses

Maybe from a TS perspective that’s what they want? Lower operating costs than trains.

Playing devil’s advocate here. Given a limited pot of public transport subsidy maybe more cost effective to encourage bus use where it is a viable alternative rather than have competing public transport modes?

 

[fgwrich]

The advert below is now being broadcast here in Scotland. How it matches up with the consultation and proposed timetable is something probably only an SNP politician could explain with a straight face:

It feels very much like most of the good work done under First Group is now being completely undone both by Abellio (also seen in their other franchises, most notably EMR) and now by the Scottish Assembly through Transport Scotland. I appreciate that Covid has lead to big changes in travel patterns but rather than wholesale reductions in services we should be looking at ways to encourage railway usage with services run by comfortable, modern rolling stock with value for money fares which make people want to get out of their cars. This achieves nothing but the exact opposite.

I’m a little surprised they used a 170 in that, rather than a shiny new HST set. Then again, Part of me was wondering why he is walking so much, perhaps they filmed it on a Sunday?

And yes, I fully agree. All the hard work put in to improve ScotRail over the last few years, I will say both by First ScotRail and Abellio, feels like it is about to be undone in one very large sweep. ScotRail did try to pad it out a little better on Twitter earlier with the line of “But this timetable will bring 100 more services than we are currently running now”, while deliberately skirting around the fact that the current timetable is in effect, a Covid hangover one.

I know the world is now a different place to what it was 2 years ago, but compare and contrast the “Great Scottish Rail Revolution” of last October to these, and well, there’s no other way to describe it than cutbacks pure and simple.

‘Rail revolution’ means 200 more services and 20,000 more seats for Scots passengers

Issued by Transport Scotland Transport Minister, Derek Mackay, today announced a “revolution in rail” in Scotland, which will deliver the largest programme of benefits to rail passengers seen in a generation. ScotRail will introduce 200 new services, providing 20,000 more seats per day, with...

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

there’s no other way to describe it than cutbacks pure and simple.

It's been clear for a year or so that cuts are likely across the whole of Great Britain. Yet many people denied it, either thinking that the most lucrative custom would be returning in a greater form or that the government would continue with the current levels of public subsidy.

 

[kez19]

I’m a little surprised they used a 170 in that, rather than a shiny new HST set. Then again, Part of me was wondering why he is walking so much, perhaps they filmed it on a Sunday?

And yes, I fully agree. All the hard work put in to improve ScotRail over the last few years, I will say both by First ScotRail and Abellio, feels like it is about to be undone in one very large sweep. ScotRail did try to pad it out a little better on Twitter earlier with the line of “But this timetable will bring 100 more services than we are currently running now”, while deliberately skirting around the fact that the current timetable is in effect, a Covid hangover one.

I know the world is now a different place to what it was 2 years ago, but compare and contrast the “Great Scottish Rail Revolution” of last October to these, and well, there’s no other way to describe it than cutbacks pure and simple.

‘Rail revolution’ means 200 more services and 20,000 more seats for Scots passengers

Issued by Transport Scotland Transport Minister, Derek Mackay, today announced a “revolution in rail” in Scotland, which will deliver the largest programme of benefits to rail passengers seen in a generation. ScotRail will introduce 200 new services, providing 20,000 more seats per day, with...

www.scotrail.co.uk

I’d be asking more to the point if you are advertising the railway be on the trains than walking it!

Scotland’s Railway - is that the end of the Scotrail brand? Or is it just another board in place of Network Rail but making it Scottishy once more?

 

[Starmill]

Scotland’s Railway - is that the end of the Scotrail brand? Or is it just another board in place of Network Rail but making it Scottishy once more?

The term has been in use for some time to describe the alliance between Network Rail Scotland and ScotRail.

 

[haggishunter]

The reason 20-minute frequencies are avoided like the plague is to do with the need to path other even-interval services in between the E&G services and this requires either a 15ms or 30ms pattern for the E&G.

Thanks for the explanation. Anyone hazard how much of a saving 30mins with 8 car 385s vs 15mins with 4 car 385s is?

I’m thinking that it’s nowhere near halving the operating costs by going long trains at 30mins - but the negative impact on revenue could be substantial vs short trains every 15mins?

I guess the circumstances are so different it might not tell us much but what was the effect of going from half hourly to 15min frequency on the E&G?

 

[GALLANTON]

I've noticed that the E+G Shuttles haven't been as busy as usual since their conversion to 8 car 385s. I've noticed that quite a lot of people don't seem to be willing to walk up the platforms at Queen St/Waverley and instead seem to aim for the first 4 or 5 coaches. Most of the passengers that seem to get on the front 2 or 3 coaches seem to board at intermediate stations instead.