Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Amaroussi]

I think that one think that we have learned, although it will probably be forgotten by the time there is another accident, is that Twitter, forums, the media and even official sources cannot be relied on. What a surprise! Confused claims by people who were on the trains/on another train/heard the accident/got a hasty ‘phone call from somebody become established fact, whether true or not. Forums don’t always manage to differentiate between supposition, guesswork and known facts; and some are more careful than others to try and avoid making claims they can’t substantiate. The media, even their transport specialists, may know about transport policy, but know nothing about railway operation. Even the ‘professionals’ can get it wrong and their statements are what others may base their deductions on. Except for facts that we can be absolutely certain of, we really have to limit our posts.

I think it is all down to the pressure for anyone to "be the first" to report any major information. In the era of social media, you can add the pressure for "fast facts" on top of that.

It’s not healthy, because that means so little time to cross-confirm or proof-read it.

 

[Annetts key]

Well, anyway, here is a YouTube video showing the flashing white ‘hazard’ lights on the rear of the GWR train.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One problem is that there isn't a latter day Gordon Pettit to brief the media as happened after the Clapham disaster. BTP are briefing one thing; NR another. I thought Martin Frobisher of NR was particularly poor seemingly not knowing that there was a 50mph, rather than 20mph, limit on the Andover line over the junction. Clearly the SWR unit was travelling at speed to get as a far as it did after side-swiping the GWR unit - it was not a minor shunt. It is also hard to believe that there was a total failure of the interlocking for the junction. Hopefully an interim RAIB report will be issued as soon as possible to quell the speculation and reassure the public.

 

[Bayum]

Unfortunately, it sounds as if the driver has sustained ‘life-changing injuries’.

 

[MarkyT]

It is also hard to believe that there was a total failure of the interlocking for the junction.

May not be the case if there was a long slide by one of the trains past a signal at red due to adhesion issues.

 

[DaveHarries]

I won't speculate on this forum but it will suffice to say that I think there are a couple of questions that need answering here. I will wait for the RAIB report and will be happy if proved wrong in terms of what I am thinking.

In the meantime I am glad that there were no fatalities and wish those injured a speedy recovery.

Dave

 

[swj99]

That will be for the insurers to decide. If the repair costs exceed the unit value, then they will write it off. The unit will become the property of the insurers. The 'railway' could buy it back from the insurers.

It's usually convenient to say a vehicle was bought back off an insurer, but the question of buying something back from an insurer isn't always black and white, and depends to a large extent on the contractual agreement between the insurer and the owner, or whoever is responsible for insuring the vehicle, be it a train, a car, bus, truck etc. When a vehicle is subject to an insurance claim, the insurer will sometimes make two settlement offers. One will be on the basis that the salvage becomes the property of the insurer, and another will be a lower figure, with the owner / policyholder retaining ownership of the insured vehicle.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Christian Wolmar was on the radio earlier giving his opinion/speculation on the incident and he raised the point that the second train may have had a red signal but was unable to brake in time due to leaves on the lines / general slippage causing it to skid into the first train.

Yeah credit to Christian Wolmar, not only did he make it clear this was speculation on his part which makes credible sense what he was suggesting but he also corrected some facts that were being misreported by Jeremy Vine.

Perhaps Tom Campbell of BBC Newcastle should now realise that low rail adhesion is no laughing matter and his jokes on Anna Fosters slot he was covering last Thursday were actually in bad taste and very unprofessional

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09xrpp9 2 hours in news and travel bulletin. I had to ring in and say something and he sort of retracted his jibe ....

 

[theageofthetra]

Don't get me started on the presumed "infallibility" if GSMR. Its a slippery slope...

Definitely.

A lot of the passengers interviewed in the media described juddering and vibration shortly before the collision. That sounds suspiciously like WSP activity.

My thoughts too.

 

[Stigy]

Between Clapham Yard and Wimbledon they can probably manage for a few days. Fratton can also service them, which is probably a better location for the Romsey circular units to run empty to/from than London.

Fratton is facilitating SWR’s diesels at present where required, as well as GWR diesels. Not sure if they can maintain them there, but obviously the feeling facilities are there which can be used, as well as light maintenance (fluid levels etc.). Sorry if this has been stated already, I quoted this from page 9 of 25

 

[357]

No, it is a train radio system that specifically includes the signaller. It would not exist if there was no need for the signaller to speak to the train crew and passengers.

My bad wording, I was getting at the fact that whilst it is mainly used for traincrew to communicate with the signaller, it is also used to talk to control, fleet, and others.

 

[The Ham]

Fratton is facilitating SWR’s diesels at present where required, as well as GWR diesels. Not sure if they can maintain them there, but obviously the feeling facilities are there which can be used, as well as light maintenance (fluid levels etc.). Sorry if this has been stated already, I quoted this from page 9 of 25

Thank you, I don't recall anyone else reporting this (although apologies to anyone who has reported it and I missed it).

 

[318266]

Here's some garbage from the Metro today:

Driver of crashed train suffers life-changing injuries

THE driver of one of the two trains that collided near Salisbury has suffered 'life-changing' injuries, it has been revealed.
British Transport Police said the man, in his 70s, who was in the second train, was 'more seriously injured' than first thought but stable in hospital yesterday.
One of 12 others treated there after Sunday's crash also remained under observation.
Meanwhile, passengers on the Great Western service involved said they called loved ones to say goodbye after their train was derailed at a tunnel. And travellers described being thrown from their seats seven minutes later when a South Western Railway train hit them from behind.
Martin Frobisher, Network Rail's safety and engineering director, said those involved 'must have had a really scary experience, and we're very sorry for that'.
He said the Office of Rail and Road and the Rail Accident Investigation Branch are probing the accident.
Lines to Salisbury are expected to be closed until at least Thursday.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's usually convenient to say a vehicle was bought back off an insurer, but the question of buying something back from an insurer isn't always black and white, and depends to a large extent on the contractual agreement between the insurer and the owner, or whoever is responsible for insuring the vehicle, be it a train, a car, bus, truck etc. When a vehicle is subject to an insurance claim, the insurer will sometimes make two settlement offers. One will be on the basis that the salvage becomes the property of the insurer, and another will be a lower figure, with the owner / policyholder retaining ownership of the insured vehicle.

Do TOCs and/or ROSCOs actually insure their trains with a third party, or do they cover the cost from their own reserves, as some large organisations do? ("Self-insurance")?

 

[trainmania100]

Is that animation still on line?

There are certainly places where both tracks are signalled for bi-directional use - the tunnels outside Kings Cross, Worcester Foregate Street, the western approach to Lincoln, to name but three. But Salisbury isn't one of them - if it had been, both trains could both have been signalled in to the station at the same time and the collision might not have happened.

Yes it is, about 1/3 into the video.

Salisbury crash disruption could last 'days' after 13 taken to hospital | ITV News

Emergency services have been working through the night at the scene of a train crash in Salisbury, which saw 13 people taken to hospital. | ITV News Meridian

www.itv.com

 

[2HAP]

BBC now saying that both trains reached Salisbury Tunnel Junction at the same time.

Salisbury train crash: Service ran through red light after wheel slip

Investigators say one of the two trains suffered a "wheel slide" before the collision.

www.bbc.co.uk

The trains were travelling in the same direction on different tracks but collided at a Y-shaped junction approaching the tunnel, with one hitting the side of the other, causing it to derail, British Transport Police (BTP) said.

 

[reddragon]

Yes it is, about 1/3 into the video.

Salisbury crash disruption could last 'days' after 13 taken to hospital | ITV News

Emergency services have been working through the night at the scene of a train crash in Salisbury, which saw 13 people taken to hospital. | ITV News Meridian

www.itv.com

If you look carefully at 02:39, it looks like the rear GWR 158 coach is bent from the impact of the 159 with the centre 159 coach inside the 158 coach

Maybe an illusion as the BBC report doesn't

 

[Juniper Driver]

Indeed
That quote has gone from overly dramatic to by the sounds of it a complete fabrication?

Just think it's poorly reported and researched.

 

[Dan G]

If you search the BBC reports from last night there is one showing it sticking out the other end of the tunnel with its hazard lights on.

That's 158763, the rear unit of 1F30.

Passenger evacuated from Salisbury crash says it was a 'miracle' no one died

Abigail Taylor was among those evacuated after the crash between two trains in Wiltshire last night.

www.google.co.uk

In the photo on the left you can clearly see 158 to the right and down the tunnel the wreckage of the other 2

A quick google search would’ve found you that instead of feeling the need to pipe up

Thank you. A photo in that article does seem to show a separate 158.

 

[Annetts key]

Someone asked earlier if GSM-R works in tunnels. That depends on a number of factors. In long tunnels, GSM-R equipment is fitted to the tunnel so that it the train equipment can communicate okay. The most visible equipment is the antenna/aerial that is mounted either on the roof of the tunnel, or on a mast near the tunnel portal.

If a the signal level is sufficient in a short tunnel, no extra equipment may be needed.

 

[Dan G]

BBC now saying that both trains reached Salisbury Tunnel Junction at the same time.

Salisbury train crash: Service ran through red light after wheel slip

Investigators say one of the two trains suffered a "wheel slide" before the collision.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yes; if I may, I think we can summarise that:

• The GWR 158s were where they were supposed to be (at least judging by how the points are set), travelling at 20 mph or less
• The SWR 159 struck the rear 158 of the GWR formation.

Beyond that we don't know anything else; what were signals showing, the state and operation of protection systems, driver actions (or inactions), railhead adhesion levels...

The RAIB interim report will certainly be an interesting read.

 

[adc82140]

The Metro has thrown out the garbage again about the passengers calling loved ones to say goodbye and there being a seven minute gap. Also mentions the driver of the SWR was in his 70s.

Metro and the Daily Mail are owned by the same lot. There's probably a lot of sharing of "journalists" between the two.

 

[Gloster]

Yes; if I may, I think we can summarise that:

• The GWR 158s were where they were supposed to be (at least judging by how the points are set), travelling at 20 mph or less
• The SWR 159 struck the rear 158 of the GWR formation.

Beyond that we don't know anything else; what were signals showing, the state and operation of protection systems, driver actions (or inactions), railhead adhesion levels...

The RAIB interim report will certainly be an interesting read.

Yes, this seems to be the sum total of what we definitely know. Anything else is deduction and it is clear that we don’t know enough to know what information that we are making the deductions on is accurate and what isn’t.

 

[QueensCurve]

Indeed so. South Today running with the idea that the SWR could have spadded, not been able to brake in time due to the weather or could have been speeding. Nothing like some good old Media speculation to stir things up - having turned into experts on all things Policing, they now seem to have overnight turned into experts on Railway management (Bangs head against the wall).

There must have been either a SPAD or a wrong side signal failure.

In either case why is unknown. RAIB will in due course report on this.

 

[LOL The Irony]

BBC now saying that both trains reached Salisbury Tunnel Junction at the same time.

Salisbury train crash: Service ran through red light after wheel slip

Investigators say one of the two trains suffered a "wheel slide" before the collision.

www.bbc.co.uk

I thought this would be the case.

FYI I'm just an enthusiast.

 

[Annetts key]

That's 158763, the rear unit of 1F30.


Thank you. A photo in that article does seem to show a separate 158.

As in these photos:

 

[dosxuk]

Someone asked earlier if GSM-R works in tunnels. That depends on a number of factors. In long tunnels, GSM-R equipment is fitted to the tunnel so that it the train equipment can communicate okay. The most visible equipment is the antenna/aerial that is mounted either on the roof of the tunnel, or on a mast near the tunnel portal.

If a the signal level is sufficient in a short tunnel, no extra equipment may be needed.

In this case, an antenna is clearly visible in the crown of the tunnel

 

[GC class B1]

I thought this would be the case.

FYI I'm just an enthusiast.

Just a minor point. As the GWR front set does not appear to be damaged it seems likely that the GWR train reached the tunnel just before the SWR set and the first contact occurred part way along the GWR train, possibly about where the two GWR sets were coupled together.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just a minor point. As the GWR front set does not appear to be damaged it seems likely that the GWR train reached the tunnel just before the SWR set and the first contact occurred part way along the GWR train, possibly about where the two GWR sets were coupled together.

This was the theory I had. The 159 appeared to have gone spearing into the side of the 3rd vehicle of the 158.

 

[railfan249]

This was the theory I had. The 159 appeared to have gone spearing into the side of the 3rd vehicle of the 158.

Just out of interest what speed should the approaching train have been going? The 159 was coming across the junction, yes?