Communication to drivers should be improved

[theageofthetra]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ar-salisbury-fisherton-tunnel-31-10-21.224217

That's complete rubbish.....it certainly appeared at my depot on Saturday morning just gone.

Wouldn't have appeared at my place, Drivers should get an email , but that's hit and miss too.

Communication to drivers is, frankly antiquated and needs root and branch change imho.

Providing the notice cases are kept up to date.

Which they aren't where I work at weekends.

 

[theageofthetra]

Late notices are still sent in bulk to remote locations and printed off next to the signing on points. RHTT can run over a LOT of separate routes indepdent of where TOC services run to-from. It would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible to advise every driver on every route affected about the potential for issues. The best place for it would be on a late notice (so it is a blanket piece of information) and for drivers to apply leaf fall driving policies, including notifying the signaller of reportable conditions. I wonder if the previous driver through SY31 reported any problems; how long had passed between 1L53 and the previous train?

Who will print it off at a weekend ? Should the railway be relying on bits of paper floating about a depot in the 21st century?

 

[alxndr]

Who will print it off at a weekend ? Should the railway be relying on bits of paper floating about a depot in the 21st century?

In the 21st century should vital information be unobtainable simply because it is a weekend?
It could potentially disrupt signalling track circuits if there was enough of it, over large enough of an area. It can also cause problems with points where it gets on the slide chairs that the switch rails move across and increase the friction, especially if grease/oil has been laid on them too thick causing it to stick. In the worst cases, this can cause a point failure.

 

[jfowkes]

In the 21st century should vital information be unobtainable simply because it is a weekend?

In the aviation world there are NOTAMs (Notices to Airmen), which are standard format electronically distributed (these days) notices concerning various potential hazards and other stuff that might affect a flight.

They are distributed by national authorities and it's a pilot's responsibility to check the NOTAMs before a flight. Airlines probably have automatic systems for disbursement, and private pilots have to be a bit more manual, but the point is that no pilot worth their salt flies without looking at NOTAMs.

Similar systems must exist for the railway? If not, sounds like they should.

 

[Horizon22]

Who will print it off at a weekend ? Should the railway be relying on bits of paper floating about a depot in the 21st century?

Never heard of remote printing? It gets printed first thing by Control in batch and then someone puts it in a pile. Not that complicated.

 

[Annetts key]

In the 21st century should vital information be unobtainable simply because it is a weekend?

Are all drivers issued with company mobile telephones or tablets?
The information could be sent out via text message and email automatically…

I was not trying to compare the reasons for the near miss, more the fact they were near misses and wondered how common near misses are. Are they often happening? Also outside of this forum has the media picked up on the near miss with 1F27?

I don’t know how common ’near misses’ are. But internal investigations into alleged signalling irregularities are fairly common. In the vast majority of these, there was no significant danger to staff, passengers or the public.

The incidents include various allegations. Sometimes it’s determined that it was in fact a signalling fault, most of which (the vast majority) are safe side faults. Sometimes no fault or defect is found with the signalling equipment. In which case, either no cause or reason is ever found, other times it’s found to be human error (driver, signaller, GF operator). Or sometimes it’s due to engineering work or a third party, that includes vandalism. And yes, occasionally the incident can include trains passing signals at red, including very occasionally by some considerable distance. Or trains derailing.

There are other incidents where no allegation is made against the signalling equipment. Often because someone admits they made a mistake. Again, in the vast majority of these, there was no significant danger to staff, passengers or the public.

None of these are normally reported to the media. The serious ones are reported to the ORR and RAIB, but it’s rare that they decide to attend on site.

 

[Dan G]

Or spending a relatively small amount of money on improved vegetation control and more RHTT?

Or topping up a sand hopper.

 

[theageofthetra]

Never heard of remote printing? It gets printed first thing by Control in batch and then someone puts it in a pile. Not that complicated.

I'm referring to the individual depots. There is no admin or management at the depot I am at after Friday afternoon to put this in a notice case.

Or topping up a sand hopper.

Exactly. Or a system that allows a driver to know if they have any sand.

 

[alxndr]

I'm referring to the individual depots. There is no admin or management at the depot I am at after Friday afternoon to put this in a notice case.

If there’s internet, put a printer in the depot and connect it to a network. Then anyone else on the network can connect to it remotely and get it to print something off. All it’ll take is for people to check it’s not spat anything out each morning/evening/whenever such things arrive. I quite often get documents sent that way if my manager’s working from home/on call.

Or get a fax machine. Or tablets and a email distribution list/SharePoint site.

There have been ways and means for doing such things for a long time now, all it takes is for someone to realise that just because they go home at the weekend it doesn’t mean that everyone else does too. If there’s information you need to have it needs to be available regardless of the time of week or day and it should be possible to make it so, now more than ever.

 

[PG]

Exactly. Or a system that allows a driver to know if they have any sand.

Indeed the RAIB report on Stonegate mentioned that as a causal factor (paragraph 222e). Prior to the report's publication the TOC modified the stock to provide a low sand warning and thus the RAIB saw no need to make a specific recommendation...

Does anyone know if 159's have a low sand warning available to drivers?

 

[Robertj21a]

If there’s internet, put a printer in the depot and connect it to a network. Then anyone else on the network can connect to it remotely and get it to print something off. All it’ll take is for people to check it’s not spat anything out each morning/evening/whenever such things arrive. I quite often get documents sent that way if my manager’s working from home/on call.

Or get a fax machine. Or tablets and a email distribution list/SharePoint site.

There have been ways and means for doing such things for a long time now, all it takes is for someone to realise that just because they go home at the weekend it doesn’t mean that everyone else does too. If there’s information you need to have it needs to be available regardless of the time of week or day and it should be possible to make it so, now more than ever.

Thanks. Quite an amazing situation, potentially very dangerous - but fairly easily resolved.

 

[357]

If there’s internet, put a printer in the depot and connect it to a network. Then anyone else on the network can connect to it remotely and get it to print something off. All it’ll take is for people to check it’s not spat anything out each morning/evening/whenever such things arrive. I quite often get documents sent that way if my manager’s working from home/on call.

Or get a fax machine. Or tablets and a email distribution list/SharePoint site.

There have been ways and means for doing such things for a long time now, all it takes is for someone to realise that just because they go home at the weekend it doesn’t mean that everyone else does too. If there’s information you need to have it needs to be available regardless of the time of week or day and it should be possible to make it so, now more than ever.

All well and good until someone puts the print outs back in a different place and nobody else sees them.

It's not acceptable in 2021 that our late notice knowledge relies on someone remote printing and hoping we see it on the printer or on the desk.

Our diagrams are printed to the same printers, it's not unusual for there to be 100 or more pages on the printer if they have printed the next days diagrams.

Who takes the responsibility when my train is late departing because I was checking through 150 pages in case there is a late notice in there?

Notices should be in the notice case. End of. If the admin is an issue, they could mount a TV on the wall that's updated remotely, instantly.

 

[norbitonflyer]

All well and good until someone puts the print outs back in a different place and nobody else sees them.

It's not acceptable in 2021 that our late notice knowledge relies on someone remote printing and hoping we see it on the printer or on the desk.

Our diagrams are printed to the same printers, it's not unusual for there to be 100 or more pages on the printer if they have printed the next days diagrams.

Who takes the responsibility when my train is late departing because I was checking through 150 pages in case there is a late notice in there?

Notices should be in the notice case. End of. If the admin is an issue, they could mount a TV on the wall that's updated remotely, instantly.

Printers can run out of ink or paper. Notices sent to a printer or a TV on the wall, or even to each driver's tablet/mobile device, may only be seen when they start their shift, so any notice issued after the driver started his/her shift won't be seen. (Are they even allowed to look at tablets/mobiles whilst driving?)

 

[357]

Printers can run out of ink or paper. Notices sent to a printer or a TV on the wall, or even to each driver's tablet/mobile device, may only be seen when they start their shift, so any notice issued after the driver started his/her shift won't be seen. (Are they even allowed to look at tablets/mobiles whilst driving?)

Even with the current system, any notices after I sign on will be missed.
And even then, the reality is "any notices after the board was last updated".

Generally, important information will be broadcast via GSMR or via station staff telling each driver.

 

[theageofthetra]

All well and good until someone puts the print outs back in a different place and nobody else sees them.

It's not acceptable in 2021 that our late notice knowledge relies on someone remote printing and hoping we see it on the printer or on the desk.

Our diagrams are printed to the same printers, it's not unusual for there to be 100 or more pages on the printer if they have printed the next days diagrams.

Who takes the responsibility when my train is late departing because I was checking through 150 pages in case there is a late notice in there?

Notices should be in the notice case. End of. If the admin is an issue, they could mount a TV on the wall that's updated remotely, instantly.

Absolutely correct.

 

[dk1]

Are all drivers issued with company mobile telephones or tablets?
The information could be sent out via text message and email automatically…

I can only speak for my TOC where just about everything is sent out electronically these days. All drivers where given a one off payment a few years back in return for accepting the work tablet & this method of communication.

 

[Dr Hoo]

We hear about ‘Driver Advisory Systems’ (which I thought was some sort of device in a cab). Is there scope for this to provide advice about things like RHTTs not running?

(Long time since I was in front line operations.)

 

[foggy69]

In the 9 ½ hours that you are driving trains after booking on, things can change considerable. The RHTT could breakdown, it could be diverted to cover another section of line. Unless drivers get real-time information In the cab, a bit of paper or email when you book on is pointless.
You have to treat all sections of line as a potential risk.

 

[Dai Corner]

Where notices are posted on the wall, are drivers just expected to remember them or make their own notes? I suppose these days they could take a photo on their smartphone but it all seems very primitive and error prone. So does getting station staff to pass on messages verbally.

 

[Seehof]

A notice indicating a change of shift duties was once covered at my depot by a trivial notice resulting in one train having two drivers and another being cancelled due to there being no driver

 

[dk1]

We hear about ‘Driver Advisory Systems’ (which I thought was some sort of device in a cab). Is there scope for this to provide advice about things like RHTTs not running?

(Long time since I was in front line operations.)

They are in operation with some operators. We have used them in the past on a voluntary basis through our tablets but are now waiting for it to be part of the in-cab TMS screens. Seems to have been delayed.

Where notices are posted on the wall, are drivers just expected to remember them or make their own notes? I suppose these days they could take a photo on their smartphone but it all seems very primitive and error prone. So does getting station staff to pass on messages verbally.

You can take a photo but that would be of little use as all phones & smart watches are not permitted to be switched on in the cab.

 

[172007]

Any drivers here get the weekly supplementary WON notices that go with the weekly WON as an addendum and can be quite large?

 

[dk1]

Any drivers here get the weekly supplementary WON notices that go with the weekly WON as an addendum and can be quite large?

Thankfully not lol.

 

[Dai Corner]

You can take a photo but that would be of little use as all phones & smart watches are not permitted to be switched on in the cab.

I was thinking more of them refreshing their memories when changing ends, on breaks etc.

Is information provided formally in mess rooms and other places traincrew wait?

 

[dk1]

I was thinking more of them refreshing their memories when changing ends, on breaks etc.

Is information provided formally in mess rooms and other places traincrew wait?

Not in our messrooms as that wouldn’t be appropriate on a break but yes, it’s in the signing on area via a screen. Also a whiteboard with odd less important stuff on it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Where I work, missed RHTT circuits are published on the late notices which appear on our tablets and are updated throughout the day. Therefore you have the most up-to-date information at the point where you book on. We also get a daily adhesion forecast as a separate notice.

However, as has been said up-thread, things can change almost on a minute-by-minute basis, so at this time of year you always factor the unknown into your driving style. We're meant to be professionals after all. Using the excuse "I didn't know that the RHTT that should have run after I'd booked on got caped" is not going to be considered a very good reason if you slide through somewhere. If track conditions are especially bad, please report this to the signaller. If necessary this can then be put out to the drivers of following trains via GSM-R so that they can be forewarned.

The problem, which ties in with the incident at Salisbury last weekend, is that you don't always know you're going to get yourself into a pickle until it's too late. A missed RHTT circuit does not necessarily mean that you're going to slide for more than a mile, so knowledge of this would be of limited use. How much more cautious would you need to be across a piece of track you're seeing for only the first time that day based on that nugget of information?

 

[Llama]

The current system works - if it is done properly. Unfortunately the calibre, competence and experience of railway manager has massively reduced on average in recent years, obviously at some places more than others but as a result there is sometimes no real leadership and control. Adherence to procedures is becoming lax, people are working slack and at our place some of the depot shift managers who have responsibility for updating the late notice case are two-minute guards 'standing in' because they don't like working trains.

When I book on duty I receive a diagram and schedule card which tells me everything I am required to do that day, and for passenger trains every station I'm booked to call at.

I read the late notice case when I book on as I am legally obliged to do, and I make a note in a relevant place on my diagram of any emergency speed restriction notice posted or other pertinent info. At this time of year I read the adhesion notices and form an understanding in my mind on which to base my driving technique also using my experience as a driver and route knowledge. There's sometimes a lot of info on these adhesion notices but I can condense that into an understanding that suits me, and the exact details are not necessarily pertinent - if I see that the RHTT has missed say NW6001 I know what that means, where is likely to be worse than normal and where that info will be irrelevant. As has been said elsewhere, the RHTT isn't a magic wand that makes the railhead pristine and it can actually make it worse for immediately following trains. My eyes, ears and feeling what is going on underneath me are much more valuable sources of info about low adhesion.

 

[Stigy]

Our late notices are emailed to our work email addresses and automatically printed for us when we book on for duty with our names on them. Seems to work okay.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm referring to the individual depots. There is no admin or management at the depot I am at after Friday afternoon to put this in a notice case.


Exactly. Or a system that allows a driver to know if they have any sand.

Yes individual depots. Late notices sent in bulk to a printer -> they are printed out -> driver picks one up when he books on. They are not necessarily "in the notice case", but they are completely visible. I've seen them in in-trays with "LATE NOTICE" written on them for the weekends. Crude, but there didn't seem to be any complaints. Even on a weekday, the first drivers will start signing on long before the admin starts their shift. I think they are also emailed too, but that is probably TOC dependent.

 

[Bill57p9]

I know an aviation environment with an online briefing tool which operational staff have an licence obligation to log on and read the mandatory notices prior to commencing work. Supervisors get reports on who has briefed what and when a user logs on, the supervisor is automatically notified if that user has any unread mandatory messages - which could be because they were urgent and late breaking, in which case this is a prompt for the supervisor to ensure the user is briefed. This has the support of the unions, as it is used to ensure members are briefed, not to catch them out.

In 2021 none of this is rocket science: It's about making the technology work for you. In railway terms, yes it probably means internet enabled devices being issued to train crew, but this is a small cost for the reassurance it provides to all parties.