Heading into autumn - what next?

[bramling]

The techniques of 'othering' a population are well-rehearsed and have been repeated throughout history.

You identify a section of the population, and you begin cutting them off from the rest of society - first cultural venues and social venues (so they become 'out of sight and out of mind' from those who previously socialised with them), then their ability to work and earn and spend money, and so on and so on. You tell everyone its for the 'good of society', because you also blame that group for the problems of the rest of society and the reason that things aren't working the way people would like. Usually you also throw in something about them being diseased and hence a threat to the health of others.

It's an obvious playbook to those who see it - you don't need to be much of a student of history to know that this has happened time and again.

The reason the Nazis are so often mentioned in such conversations is simply a short of shorthand - they are well-known and one of the most extreme, but what they did was hardly unique.

I can't think of a single example from history where a society, where this sort of 'othering' has taken hold, has ended well. History is there to warn us which roads should not be taken.

Completely agree with all this. We already had a taste of it last year when people with medical issues essentially had to take a deep breath before getting on a bus or walking into a shop. Absolutely disgusting and utterly shameful that this happened in this country.

 

[Butts]

@NorthKent1989 i completely agree, I for one am sick of the lies and the hypocrisy from this government. I saw the parallels with 1930s Germany a long time ago but there are some that can't, or won't, see it.

Are there to many "Quislings" in the Media going along with all these unjustified restrictions ?

 

[yorkie]

Interesting. So exactly like 2019 then? Where do you live as I’m keen to move there.

I believe @greyman42 lives in or near York.

I would highly recommend you consider moving here (but best discussed further either in a separate thread or a conversation message)

As far as my lifestyle is concerned, i am already back to normal.

For day to day stuff, I completely agree.

At work maybe 2% of people wear masks which is a constant unwelcome reminder that some* are keen to avoid normality but other than that, work is normal. Pubs, restaurants etc are normal. Public transport is normal it's just a case of putting up with a minority wearing masks and having to endure some inappropriate announcements. In terms of what we can do, it is entirely normal as far as I am concerned.

(* not necessarily the wearers themselves and indeed I believe many of them have been mislead)

Are there to many "Quislings" in the Media going along with all these unjustified restrictions ?

Not a term I've heard before. Those who push for restrictions, such as mandatory masks, tend to be far-left authoritarians who are very anti UK Government and are pressuring the Government into pandering to their demands. They are much happier with the Scottish and Welsh governments of course.

...Interestingly, The Telegraph article below says that social distancing measures in The Netherlands were dropped in late September, just at the beginning of the respiratory virus season, and some two months later than in England.

So if they had eased measures in the summer, perhaps this current "surge" in cases would not have happened....

Absolutely. We are going to be in a far better position than many other countries. I think Germany are going to be in big trouble and if they lock down they will also be creating problems for next year.

 

[brad465]

The techniques of 'othering' a population are well-rehearsed and have been repeated throughout history.

You identify a section of the population, and you begin cutting them off from the rest of society - first cultural venues and social venues (so they become 'out of sight and out of mind' from those who previously socialised with them), then their ability to work and earn and spend money, and so on and so on. You tell everyone its for the 'good of society', because you also blame that group for the problems of the rest of society and the reason that things aren't working the way people would like. Usually you also throw in something about them being diseased and hence a threat to the health of others.

It's an obvious playbook to those who see it - you don't need to be much of a student of history to know that this has happened time and again.

The reason the Nazis are so often mentioned in such conversations is simply a short of shorthand - they are well-known and one of the most extreme, but what they did was hardly unique.

I can't think of a single example from history where a society, where this sort of 'othering' has taken hold, has ended well. History is there to warn us which roads should not be taken.

What we need to be careful of here is using the Nazis example, while correct, could easily be met will cries of Godwin's law and thus claims you've lost the argument. Better examples that may land better are US racial segregation, South Africa's apartheid, and various examples of religious persecution throughout history besides the Holocaust.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just looking at the BBC story about Austria on Facebook, there is a massive pushback from many commenters more so than I've seen before on their site. Perhaps this move will be the straw that breaks the back of the ever more ridiculous and nonsensical measures some governments are addicted to.

 

[MikeWM]

What we need to be careful of here is using the Nazis example, while correct, could easily be met will cries of Godwin's law and thus claims you've lost the argument. Better examples that may land better are US racial segregation, South Africa's apartheid, and various examples of religious persecution throughout history besides the Holocaust.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately there all too many examples throughout history that can be used

I'd rather hoped we were past this sort of thing in the modern world, but it seems not.

 

[bramling]

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately there all too many examples throughout history that can be used

I'd rather hoped we were past this sort of thing in the modern world, but it seems not.

The comparison with the 1930s is more the way the population sleepwalked into something bad. There are, unfortunately, very much parallels with what is happening now. In that case it was economic depression which was the trigger, this time it would be health.

We need to be *very* careful. Covid has already being used to justify all sorts of things that aren’t directly related to Covid.

As someone else posted, free life would now appear to depend on a bi-annual subscription to Pfizer.

 

[MikeWM]

The comparison with the 1930s is more the way the population sleepwalked into something bad. There are, unfortunately, very much parallels with what is happening now. In that case it was economic depression which was the trigger, this time it would be health.

While acknowledging that I've not managed to get through a single post before invoking 1930s Germany (!), I'd recommend reading this extract from They Thought They Were Free; I'll supply a bit but it is all worth reading and understanding.
http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’
...
But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.
...
...you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.

Of course we're not at this point yet. But the trajectory is deeply troubling.

As someone else posted, free life would now appear to depend on a bi-annual subscription to Pfizer.

And indeed - very soon - 'your choice' of either an Apple or Google device to display your government permission to participate in that life.

 

[brad465]

The BBC are now reporting, based on the latest ONS infection survey, that the UK is bucking the trend in the rest of Europe:

UK bucks Europe Covid trend but concern over winter

New infections remain steady in the UK, but PM warns there's no room for complacency.

www.bbc.co.uk

While many European countries are seeing steep rises in coronavirus cases and preparing to step up Covid restrictions, the UK is currently going in the other direction.

Experts say it is tricky to explain the trends, but immunity from vaccines and past infections may be part of it.

Until recently, the UK had been seeing the highest rates of cases and deaths in Europe.

In recent weeks these have been falling in Britain.

According to the latest daily figures, 42,408 people have Covid in the UK.

That's down around 12% over the last seven days.

In terms of daily cases per million people, the UK is running at around 500, while Austria has more than double this.

Cases in countries such as Germany may be lower, but they are rising.

I think it's clear to see restrictions just delay the inevitable, and if this trend continues those opposed to restrictions, masks, etc. will have plenty of evidence to their disposal.

 

[DustyBin]

While acknowledging that I've not managed to get through a single post before invoking 1930s Germany (!), I'd recommend reading this extract from They Thought They Were Free; I'll supply a bit but it is all worth reading and understanding.
http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

That quote illustrates exactly what I've been trying to articulate to people for months, often unsuccessfully! Hence I resort to "boiled frogs" as it's simpler. There is another (proper scientific) term used by @kristiang85 (I think) to describe it but I can't remember what it is now.

 

[bramling]

The BBC are now reporting, based on the latest ONS infection survey, that the UK is bucking the trend in the rest of Europe:

UK bucks Europe Covid trend but concern over winter

New infections remain steady in the UK, but PM warns there's no room for complacency.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think it's clear to see restrictions just delay the inevitable, and if this trend continues those opposed to restrictions, masks, etc. will have plenty of evidence to their disposal.

Whilst that’s logical, when did logic ever come into this?!

 

[87electric]

While acknowledging that I've not managed to get through a single post before invoking 1930s Germany (!), I'd recommend reading this extract from They Thought They Were Free; I'll supply a bit but it is all worth reading and understanding.
http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html


Of course we're not at this point yet. But the trajectory is deeply troubling.



And indeed - very soon - 'your choice' of either an Apple or Google device to display your government permission to participate in that life.

Also worth researching, if anybody is interested in psychology, is the phenomenon called Mass Formation. There's plenty to find on the internet through Professor Mattias Desmet of Psychology University of Ghent, Belgium. It's quite startling how easy manipulation and control of the human mind can occur to achieve what is desired by authorities. It is plain to see why history repeats itself with atrocities.

 

[35B]

What we need to be careful of here is using the Nazis example, while correct, could easily be met will cries of Godwin's law and thus claims you've lost the argument. Better examples that may land better are US racial segregation, South Africa's apartheid, and various examples of religious persecution throughout history besides the Holocaust.

None of which are valid; all of which are entirely inappropriate to the policies being applied in the western world.

 

[MikeWM]

Exactly, it never applies to the politicians, one rule for them and another for us

Though in some cases that may well be better than the alternative.

For example, I see the Latvian Parliament has just decided that members of the legislature that are not vaccinated may not speak in parliament or vote. I think that is pretty horrifying.

 

[35B]

The comparison with the 1930s is more the way the population sleepwalked into something bad. There are, unfortunately, very much parallels with what is happening now. In that case it was economic depression which was the trigger, this time it would be health.

We need to be *very* careful. Covid has already being used to justify all sorts of things that aren’t directly related to Covid.

As someone else posted, free life would now appear to depend on a bi-annual subscription to Pfizer.

That comparison is simply incorrect. There was a hell of a lot going on in Europe in the 1930s, in societies that were far from used to democracy; the dictatorships of that period were far from unnatural impositions upon the public. I remember thinking back in about 1991 that post Soviet Russia would follow a pattern akin to that of Weimar Germany where the popular desire for order would outweigh the desire for democracy; Putin has proved that significantly correct.

 

[NorthKent1989]

None of which are valid; all of which are entirely inappropriate to the policies being applied in the western world.

So Austria putting unvaccinated people into lockdown and effectively othering them and removing them from society is totally normal and rational right?

Though in some cases that may well be better than the alternative.

For example, I see the Latvian Parliament has just decided that members of the legislature that are not vaccinated may not speak in parliament or vote. I think that is pretty horrifying.

Im sure people on here will think this is a “proportionate” response.

Remember when vaccines would take us back to normal? I guess that’s the conspiracy theory now.

 

[35B]

So Austria putting unvaccinated people into lockdown and effectively othering them and removing them from society is totally normal and rational right?

I didn't comment on whether I agree with that policy in Austria - I just stated that the comparisons being made are simply inaccurate and false. The comparison you and others are making to the 1930s and 40s, or Apartheid, or the segregationist Deep South, is simply false.

The critical difference, which you choose to ignore, is that the regimes you look at saw active persecution of people who could not make changes, because of their birth - what the law now calls "protected characteristics". Today, we're seeing lockdowns like that in Austria because of choices the locked down individuals have made, which they are free to alter, and the policy is intended to persuade them to alter. A Jew in the Third Reich, or a non-white in South Africa, or a black in the Deep South, could not change that status - it was determined by the accident of their birth, not anything they had done. And while being in lockdown's pretty tedious, it bears no resemblance to the conditions those you try to compare them with had to endure.

 

[Bikeman78]

Mind you, The Netherlands has compulsory masks in many indoor settings and on public transport,

I didn't think that masks were required on Dutch trains any more but maybe I got that wrong. No doubt they will be again soon.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I didn't comment on whether I agree with that policy in Austria - I just stated that the comparisons being made are simply inaccurate and false. The comparison you and others are making to the 1930s and 40s, or Apartheid, or the segregationist Deep South, is simply false.

The critical difference, which you choose to ignore, is that the regimes you look at saw active persecution of people who could not make changes, because of their birth - what the law now calls "protected characteristics". Today, we're seeing lockdowns like that in Austria because of choices the locked down individuals have made, which they are free to alter, and the policy is intended to persuade them to alter. A Jew in the Third Reich, or a non-white in South Africa, or a black in the Deep South, could not change that status - it was determined by the accident of their birth, not anything they had done. And while being in lockdown's pretty tedious, it bears no resemblance to the conditions those you try to compare them with had to endure.

The government’s are taking away people’s right to do what they will with their own bodies, why should someone healthy be threatened with being locked down unless they take the vaccine? The freedoms of 2019 weren’t that long ago and that’s the freedom I want to return to.

And you do have a point, but now the government is targeting those with different views, let’s not forget the Nazis targeted not just Jews but those who thought differently; Socialists, Anti-Fascists etc they were targeted as much as the Jewish people were just for having “wrong-thought” not everything is down to race or class.

 

[kristiang85]

And some people aren't getting vaccinated due to religious or cultural reasons , so it is discrimination along those lines in some cases.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just looking at the BBC story about Austria on Facebook, there is a massive pushback from many commenters more so than I've seen before on their site. Perhaps this move will be the straw that breaks the back of the ever more ridiculous and nonsensical measures some governments are addicted to.

It will be interesting to see how the mandatory vaccines for NHS staff pans out. The government will look rather silly if lots of people stick two fingers up and leave. I'd go and train to be an HGV driver. More money and less hassle.

 

[DustyBin]

I didn't comment on whether I agree with that policy in Austria - I just stated that the comparisons being made are simply inaccurate and false. The comparison you and others are making to the 1930s and 40s, or Apartheid, or the segregationist Deep South, is simply false.

The critical difference, which you choose to ignore, is that the regimes you look at saw active persecution of people who could not make changes, because of their birth - what the law now calls "protected characteristics". Today, we're seeing lockdowns like that in Austria because of choices the locked down individuals have made, which they are free to alter, and the policy is intended to persuade them to alter. A Jew in the Third Reich, or a non-white in South Africa, or a black in the Deep South, could not change that status - it was determined by the accident of their birth, not anything they had done. And while being in lockdown's pretty tedious, it bears no resemblance to the conditions those you try to compare them with had to endure.

Whilst your observations are valid, its worth remembering that the persecution of people in Nazi Germany (for example) extended beyond those with what we now call "protected characteristics". Being a communist, or any other kind of political opponent is as much a choice as is being unvaccinated.

Nobody is equating what has happened over the course of the pandemic, or what is happening now, with the levels of persecution you describe above. It is however perfectly valid to point out that it all starts somewhere, and even one step down such a road is one too many in my opinion.

 

[duncanp]

I didn't comment on whether I agree with that policy in Austria - I just stated that the comparisons being made are simply inaccurate and false. The comparison you and others are making to the 1930s and 40s, or Apartheid, or the segregationist Deep South, is simply false.

The critical difference, which you choose to ignore, is that the regimes you look at saw active persecution of people who could not make changes, because of their birth - what the law now calls "protected characteristics". Today, we're seeing lockdowns like that in Austria because of choices the locked down individuals have made, which they are free to alter, and the policy is intended to persuade them to alter. A Jew in the Third Reich, or a non-white in South Africa, or a black in the Deep South, could not change that status - it was determined by the accident of their birth, not anything they had done. And while being in lockdown's pretty tedious, it bears no resemblance to the conditions those you try to compare them with had to endure.

Well, some people cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, and therefore they don't have a choice in the matter.

The comparison is valid because it is effectively creating a two tier society where certain people have freedoms and priveleges which are denied to others, thus treating the people who have their freedoms denied as second class citizens.

And in any case, vaccine passports and the like are pointless, because anyone can spread the virus regardless of vaccination status.

 

[Watershed]

I didn't comment on whether I agree with that policy in Austria - I just stated that the comparisons being made are simply inaccurate and false. The comparison you and others are making to the 1930s and 40s, or Apartheid, or the segregationist Deep South, is simply false.

The critical difference, which you choose to ignore, is that the regimes you look at saw active persecution of people who could not make changes, because of their birth - what the law now calls "protected characteristics". Today, we're seeing lockdowns like that in Austria because of choices the locked down individuals have made, which they are free to alter, and the policy is intended to persuade them to alter. A Jew in the Third Reich, or a non-white in South Africa, or a black in the Deep South, could not change that status - it was determined by the accident of their birth, not anything they had done. And while being in lockdown's pretty tedious, it bears no resemblance to the conditions those you try to compare them with had to endure.

I think this overlooks the vital point that the limit of what is considered a 'protected characteristic' is inherently arbitrary, and changes over time. During the atrocities in question, those characteristics were not considered protected and, in the eyes of those committing the atrocities, it was seen as perfectly legitimate to discriminate against people on that basis.

How do we know that in another 5, 10 or 50 years, discriminating on the basis of vaccination status won't also be seen as unconscionable?

Whilst there aren't yet any countries that have gone as far as any of those atrocities, no-one can deny that we are seeing many of the same precursors in terms of segregation and discrimination.

First it was having to prove your vaccination status to travel internationally. Then it was to avoid quarantine on close contact. Then to undertake 'domestic' activities. Then to keep your job. And now, in some places, you will be under lockdown unless you get vaccinated.

Quite simply - where does it end, and at what point do people recognise that the human right to bodily autonomy matters?

If we go along the line of "it's a matter of choice", you could say exactly the same about religion, for example. But it is internationally recognised that the freedom to exercise, or not to exercise, a religious or spiritual way of life warrants protection. Many people might see certain beliefs as totally illogical and unscientific but no-one would dare suggest that religious discrimination is acceptable.

How is this any different, on a fundamental level?

 

[Bantamzen]

I can’t imagine why, if you are double vaccinated, you’d refuse a booster anyway. The government at obviously trying to shape behaviour around getting the booster by carrot and stick method, but…I dunno, stick the booster in my arm!

Its a real possibility, and would be a huge own goal from the government.

 

[greyman42]

It makes for chilling reading, if only because it's a policy other European countries will inevitably copy. And that may potentially include parts of the UK...

There is no suggestion whatsoever that the UK has any plans to do this.

I can’t see that beyond the paywall but it sounds absolutely frightening that is where we are going. A year ago this was all a “conspiracy theory” and now it is very much real. There is something very very sinister going on now and I wonder what it is. And will we ever return to a normal society…

What has this got to do with the UK?

 

[Watershed]

There is no suggestion whatsoever that the UK has any plans to do this.

Kate Bingham, the head of the vaccine rollout, said 13 months ago that:

vaccinating everyone in the country was “not going to happen”, adding: “We just need to vaccinate everyone at risk.”

Yet that turned out rather differently, didn't it? Similarly, Nadhim Zahawi, the vaccines minister, promised that vaccines would be totally voluntary and that the government wasn't considering any kind of vaccine passport. Hmm...

The point is that with Covid, the countless number of U-turns has shown us you can't take "there's no suggestion this will happen" to mean it can't or won't happen.

 

[greyman42]

Interesting. So exactly like 2019 then? Where do you live as I’m keen to move there.

The first start where we are not back to normal is medical discrimination and taking away normal activities unless you agree to take an experimental injection. Multiple times a year. Is that normal? There are some of us that became exceptionally unwell after one dose and cannot medically have another. And now it looks like I’m about to be excluded from most of society once the vaccine passport rollout is expanded.

If things like that are normal to you then, just, wow.

I have had the virus and two injections, neither which of was experimental. I was fine after both my injections so i am living a normal life. What makes you think we are about to have a vaccine passport rollout?
I now live in York and would highly recommend moving here.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Despite what has been quoted up stream regarding Britain bucking the trend I suspect the main driver was the school holidays. Now the kids are back I would expect the number of cases to rise fast. If this is the case the government will have to make some very tough decisions by early December.

 

[Darandio]

Despite what has been quoted up stream regarding Britain bucking the trend I suspect the main driver was the school holidays. Now the kids are back I would expect the number of cases to rise fast. If this is the case the government will have to make some very tough decisions by early December.

The kids were off for a week. Before that they were at school for 7-8 weeks and cases didn't rise 'fast' then. Why the doom and gloom predictions now?