Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

[duncanp]

The Telegraph is reporting today that

NEW COVID RESTRICTIONS TO LAST UNTIL MARCH

This headline only refers to the requirement to self isolate for 10 days if you come into contact with a case of the Omicron variant, and this has been written into law until March 24th.

The face nappy regulations still currently expire on December 20th.

Of course we know how well track and trace worked last time don't we?

And people will soon cotton on to the fact that you are not legally obliged to self isolate just because you are pinged by the App, nor are you legally obliged to download the app in the first place, or even have a smartphone.

You can also refuse to pick up phone number you don't recognise, so you will never be contacted by NHS Track and Trace anyway.

I don't know who the government thinks they are trying to kid.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The face nappy regulations still currently expire on December 20th.

As one who has always used disposable masks, I do not understand what you mean by using the term of "face nappy".

If a baby were to wear a nappy composed of the same material as that of a disposable mask, what do think a soiled nappy would look like?

 

[duncanp]

As one who has always used disposable masks, I do not understand what you mean by using the term of "face nappy".

If a baby were to wear a nappy composed of the same material as that of a disposable mask, what do think a soiled nappy would look like?

"Face Nappy" is a pejorative term for " face covering ", used by people, myself included, who hate them and are sceptical about their effectiveness.

The word "nappy" is used because the mask traps germ ridden breath inside it (allegedly), in a similar way as urine and faeces are trapped inside a baby's nappy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Face Nappy" is a pejorative term for " face covering ", used by people, myself included, who hate them and are sceptical about their effectiveness.

The word "nappy" is used because the mask traps germ ridden breath inside it (allegedly), in a similar way as urine and faeces are trapped inside a baby's nappy.

Whilst it is your right to hold your views on face coverings, noting your stated scepticism about their effectiveness, do you also hold to the same belief when hospital staff with a tad more knowledge of medical matters than the public at large wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals as a method of protection?

It's a continuation of WHO's greek alphabet system, so we don't name the variants over geographical locations and create stigmas.

It is the alphabet system of Greece, not just a system used by the WHO.

 

[adc82140]

Whilst it is your right to hold your views on face coverings, noting your stated scepticism about their effectiveness, do you also hold to the same belief when hospital staff with a tad more knowledge of medical matters than the public at large wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals as a method of protection?

You've just answered your own question. Hospital staff with more knowledge handle and wear them properly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You've just answered your own question. Hospital staff with more knowledge handle and wear them properly.

You appear not to have noticed my point in my reply to the contributor who doubted the effectiveness of face coverings. You now seem to cast doubt, from what you say above, that the public at large have not the same expertise as hospital staff in the handling and wearing of face coverings.

 

[The North Briton]

You appear not to have noticed my point in my reply to the contributor who doubted the effectiveness of face coverings. You now seem to cast doubt, from what you say above, that the public at large have not the same expertise as hospital staff in the handling and wearing of face coverings.

You have only to walk into any supermarket to see that they don't.

 

[duncanp]

Whilst it is your right to hold your views on face coverings, noting your stated scepticism about their effectiveness, do you also hold to the same belief when hospital staff with a tad more knowledge of medical matters than the public at large wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals as a method of protection?


It is the alphabet system of Greece, not just a system used by the WHO.

There are many differing views amongst medical professionals about the effectiveness of face coverings including, er, Dr Jenny Harries, who when Deputy CMO for England in March 2020 said that face coverings could lead people to breath in terms trapped in the fabric and thus become infected.

You wouldn't hold a used handkerchief to your face, and yet it is now a legal requirement to do exactly that on public transport and in shops.

 

[Eyersey468]

Whilst it is your right to hold your views on face coverings, noting your stated scepticism about their effectiveness, do you also hold to the same belief when hospital staff with a tad more knowledge of medical matters than the public at large wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals as a method of protection?


It is the alphabet system of Greece, not just a system used by the WHO.

I am also sceptical about how effective a lot of the Face coverings on the market are, I would say the difference is thar hospital staff wear proper medical grade masks properly and change them regularly, the general public do not.

 

[greyman42]

Wow. Just wow. That is all.

Genuinely frightening times.

What laws they have in Greece has no bearing on us so there is nothing to be frightened off.

 

[Bayum]

Just saying natural infection provides more protection against mutations/variants than the existing vaccines.

Also worth noting that antibodies are produced by the immune system in response to infection. A healthy immune system shouldn't need multiple booster jabs

It does but you can’t be certain whether someone will develop severe illness or not. We don’t withhold MMR vaccine and say - only a small number become disabled from these infections.

Jenny Harries now suggesting we should limit socialising in the run up to Christmas. Here we go again…

Boris Johnson rejects health official’s advice to reduce festive socialising | Coronavirus | The Guardian

PM says no need to strengthen guidance despite UK Health Security Agency chief’s cautionary message

amp.theguardian.com

Just another example of BoJo thinking he knows best.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's more so that the antibodies are fresh and primed and able to deal with mutations/breakthrough infections in those that are susceptible. There's an increasing number of patients becoming poorly with COVID-19 and this then leads to breakthrough infections and causing severe illness. A poke and increase in antibody response has been shown (worldwide) to continue to reduce breakthrough infection and reduce the risk of any of these being serious.

Do you have some data to back up your claim that "There's an increasing number of patients becoming poorly with COVID-19", because official data doesn't support that.

UK Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK (data.gov.uk)

 

[Towers]

What laws they have in Greece has no bearing on us so there is nothing to be frightened off.

I think it's rather blatantly obvious why developments such as these are of concern.

 

[greyman42]

I think it's rather blatantly obvious why developments such as these are of concern.

Perhaps you can enlighten me then?

Just another example of BoJo thinking he knows best.

Are you suggesting we should cut back on socialising?

 

[westv]

Perhaps you can enlighten me then?


Are you suggesting we should cut back on socialising?

The slow creep of mandatory vaccination across Europe can't be a good thing

 

[Towers]

The slow creep of mandatory vaccination across Europe can't be a good thing

Indeed. It would be short sighted to think that other nations are not watching closely with interest to see how tactics such as these turn out. I sincerely hope that a move like this would be seen as beyond the pale by the British public, but Covid has been a powerful driver for the general acceptance of measures which would otherwise, you would think, be seen as utterly draconian.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are many differing views amongst medical professionals about the effectiveness of face coverings including, er, Dr Jenny Harries, who when Deputy CMO for England in March 2020 said that face coverings could lead people to breath in terms trapped in the fabric and thus become infected.

You wouldn't hold a used handkerchief to your face, and yet it is now a legal requirement to do exactly that on public transport and in shops.

Do I understand you to say that hospital staff should no longer be required to wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals for the reasons you have given?

Have the Royal College of Nursing made any statements on the said matter of the wearing of face coverings by hospital staff when on duty?

 

[joncombe]

The Telegraph is reporting today that

NEW COVID RESTRICTIONS TO LAST UNTIL MARCH

This headline only refers to the requirement to self isolate for 10 days if you come into contact with a case of the Omicron variant, and this has been written into law until March 24th.

The face nappy regulations still currently expire on December 20th.

Of course we know how well track and trace worked last time don't we?

And people will soon cotton on to the fact that you are not legally obliged to self isolate just because you are pinged by the App, nor are you legally obliged to download the app in the first place, or even have a smartphone.

You can also refuse to pick up phone number you don't recognise, so you will never be contacted by NHS Track and Trace anyway.

I don't know who the government thinks they are trying to kid.

Providing contact details is no longer required in hospitality however. Testing is only required when returning from abroad this time so I suspect less of a pingdemic. I suspect this could well backfire as I imagine some will be put off voluntary taking a test due to risk of having to isolate. As to March, once restrictions came back I always suspected they will last until March. I fear this confirms it.

 

[bramling]

What laws they have in Greece has no bearing on us so there is nothing to be frightened off.

When China locked down, how many people thought to themselves “that wouldn’t happen here”?

 

[yorkie]

It's more so that the antibodies are fresh and primed and able to deal with mutations/breakthrough infections in those that are susceptible.

T-cells are key to fighting Sars-CoV-2

There's an increasing number of patients becoming poorly with COVID-19

You meant to say decreasing, surely? Hospitalisations and deaths have been decreasing for over a month!

and this then leads to breakthrough infections and causing severe illness.

The term 'breakthrough infection' is wrong; it is used by people who try to imply that vaccines are ineffective but the reality is that vaccines are intended to avoid serious illness and they are highly effective at that.

A poke and increase in antibody response has been shown (worldwide) to continue to reduce breakthrough infection and reduce the risk of any of these being serious.

We need to get away from these bogus ideas that we need everyone to have high levels of antibodies all the time and that we can avoid infections of Sars-CoV-2 and that any infection (including a mild or asymptomatic one) is a 'case'.

When China locked down, how many people thought to themselves “that wouldn’t happen here”?

It could never happen to the same extent here, but it is frightening how much we have accepted Chinese-style authoritarianism in this country.

Do I understand you to say that hospital staff should no longer be required to wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals for the reasons you have given?

Have the Royal College of Nursing made any statements on the said matter of the wearing of face coverings by hospital staff when on duty?

Surgical masks are not worn for the purpose of preventing virus transmission. If hospital staff wear loose fitting flimsy surgical masks around infected patience they will likely get infected. If they wear effective tight fitting FFP3 masks (which are designed to filter aerosol particles) they are not likely to be infected.

The Royal College of Nursing is a trade union and therefore I do not care what they say on this, or indeed any subject; you should know that trade unions cannot be trusted to be objective. But if this matter is to be debated further it would need to be in a dedicated thread.

Are you suggesting we should cut back on socialising?

I think they are suggesting that. I would suggest people do as much socialising as they want to do and to ignore any such suggestion.

 

[duncanp]

Do I understand you to say that hospital staff should no longer be required to wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals for the reasons you have given?

Have the Royal College of Nursing made any statements on the said matter of the wearing of face coverings by hospital staff when on duty?

I never said that hospital staff should no longer be required to wear face coverings on duty.

Hospital staff wear medical grade masks and change them frequently.

Jenny Harries was referring to the general population, who often wear the same mask several times.

 

[DelayRepay]

Do I understand you to say that hospital staff should no longer be required to wear face coverings when on duty in hospitals for the reasons you have given?

Have the Royal College of Nursing made any statements on the said matter of the wearing of face coverings by hospital staff when on duty?

I suspect if hospital staff were required to wear the same type of face covering that people wear in shops and on the bus, the RCN would be rightly horrified - as indeed they were in the early days when there was a shortage of medical grade masks.

The situation for medical staff in hospitals is completely different to what happens in shops.

 

[DustyBin]

Just another example of BoJo thinking he knows best.

I don’t like Boris one bit but he’s absolutely correct on this occasion. Do you have any idea how damaging Harries’ statement is? And why is she going to the media in the first place? Boris rarely knows best but he has a country to run and non-covid matters to consider (as incredible as the latter may sound!).

I suspect if hospital staff were required to wear the same type of face covering that people wear in shops and on the bus, the RCN would be rightly horrified - as indeed they were in the early days when there was a shortage of medical grade masks.

The situation for medical staff in hospitals is completely different to what happens in shops.

Indeed. I have a business contact who’s wife is quite high up in the nursing profession and she’s horrified by the thought of the general public being “let loose” with face coverings. People in medical settings are trained in their correct use and follow strict protocols to ensure their effectiveness (at catching large droplets) and to prevent cross contamination. You’re handling clinical waste; something conveniently glossed over by these pointless mandates.

 

[adc82140]

I do not wear a mask correctly in public. It's impossible to do so. At work, I wash my hands, take a mask from the dispenser, wash my hands again, then repeat every time I handle my mask. On the high street, despite my best efforts, it's just not possible.

 

[kristiang85]

It is the alphabet system of Greece, not just a system used by the WHO.

Yes... that's what I said wasn't it? (Sorry if I'm missing a more pertinent point?)

Indeed. I have a business contact who’s wife is quite high up in the nursing profession and she’s horrified by the thought of the general public being “let loose” with face coverings. People in medical settings are trained in their correct use and follow strict protocols to ensure their effectiveness (at catching large droplets) and to prevent cross contamination. You’re handling clinical waste; something conveniently glossed over by these pointless mandates.

This is what I find flabbergasting - in hospitals surgical masks have to be put immediately in contaminated waste bins, and this is not from someone who possibly has the most deadly disease known to man (as COVID is being treated as). Yet I see people put them on tables in trains and restaurants, and obviously they are littered everywhere. Most of these probably have a few days of germs in too. Imagine if people left their handkerchiefs on tables or streets - it would be seen as utterly disgusting.

 

[quantinghome]

The risk of Covid to those who are not deemed 'vulnerable' is very, very low indeed. The risks of the vaccines are difficult to fully quantify, as the usual timeframe over which any longer term side effects would be identified simply isn't there, and won't be for some time.

The risk of dying from Covid for people without underlying medical conditions is largely age-related. People in their 40s who were perfectly healthy have died from Covid because they have not listened to competent scientific advice and have ended up overestimating the risk of vaccination, have underestimated the risk of dying from Covid, and have decided not to get vaccinated.

Large scale vaccination programmes have been happening for decades if not centuries. Vaccine side effects usually happen within 6 weeks. Long term side effects from vaccines are extremely rare. The particular types of vaccine used have been researched for decades. It's now been a year since mass vaccination started. We can be confident that the risks of long term side effects are extremely small, and for adults certainly much lower than the risks of not getting vaccinated.

More info here: Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC

The arguments could flow on either side of this particular fence all day long, I think the only sensible way to move forwards is for individuals to make their own personal choices, as it should be. We can only hope that those in charge do not seek to remove or further diminish that personal choice.

The sensible way forward is to seek out scientific advice and act accordingly - that means coming to conclusions not from forums like this, not from friends and family, not from social media, but from the actual scientists who have spend their entire careers assessing vaccine risk. And that advice is to get vaccinated and boosted.

To be clear, nobody should be bullied into having a drug injected into them if they do not wish for that to happen.

I never said they should. And I agree with you. But people also have the right to receive accurate information in order to make that choice, particularly when you could end up dying if you make the wrong decision. There is a huge amount of vaccine misinformation swirling around social media, and it has caused many people to make the wrong choice, with sometimes fatal consequences.

 

[172007]

I wish people would stop describing face masks as "Face Nappies". It's missleading. Nappies are pretty much 98% effective at preventive bodily fluid leaks. Face masks are dependent on what material they are made of and how they are worn so generally no where near 98% effective. By calling them Nappies risks spreading Omicron even more by overconfidence in the efficacy of masks.

 

[Towers]

The risk of dying from Covid for people without underlying medical conditions is largely age-related. People in their 40s who were perfectly healthy have died from Covid because they have not listened to competent scientific advice and have ended up overestimating the risk of vaccination, have underestimated the risk of dying from Covid, and have decided not to get vaccinated.

Large scale vaccination programmes have been happening for decades if not centuries. Vaccine side effects usually happen within 6 weeks. Long term side effects from vaccines are extremely rare. The particular types of vaccine used have been researched for decades. It's now been a year since mass vaccination started. We can be confident that the risks of long term side effects are extremely small, and for adults certainly much lower than the risks of not getting vaccinated.

The sensible way forward is to seek out scientific advice and act accordingly - that means coming to conclusions not from forums like this, not from friends and family, not from social media, but from the actual scientists who have spend their entire careers assessing vaccine risk. And that advice is to get vaccinated and boosted.


I never said they should. And I agree with you. But people also have the right to receive accurate information in order to make that choice, particularly when you could end up dying if you make the wrong decision. There is a huge amount of vaccine misinformation swirling around social media, and it has caused many people to make the wrong choice, with sometimes fatal consequences.

I'm afraid the issue has moved beyond choice, certainly in some places globally if not yet entirely at a national level. Although many would suggest that the Scots and Welsh have already arrived there with the passport scheme, that of course is one for perpetual debate.

Placing your trust entirely in what scientists who have been put in front of the cameras by government tell you, is indeed one way of approaching this. However, it is clear that there are sizeable gaps in their own knowledge, and the current approach regarding boosters is by their own admission a bit of a "best shot" panic effort; that much was very clear from the Omicron briefing. You suggest that healthy people in their 40s have died as a direct result of not being vaccinated - how many people do you think are in that category? People of a similar age have died as a direct result of bloodclots caused by the vaccine; here are a few of them:

51, from Wales:

Woman, 51, died after Covid vaccine triggered blood clots

“The deceased died as the consequences of the unrecognised, rare complications of a recently administered elective and necessary Covid-19 vaccination.”

www.google.com

35, from London:

'Wonderful and loving' mum died from complications of AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

Healthy Alpa Tailor, 35, who took the vaccine to 'protect her family', fell ill just over a week after getting her first dose in March this year after complaining of a headache

www.google.com

34, from New S Wales:

NSW woman, 34, becomes Australia's seventh AstraZeneca-related death

The Therapeutic Goods Administration says the woman died on Wednesday from a confirmed case of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome.

www.abc.net.au

44, From Newcastle:

BBC presenter Lisa Shaw died of Covid vaccine complications, coroner finds

Shaw died of a brain haemorrhage caused by a blood clot three weeks after her first AstraZeneca dose

www.theguardian.com

51, "probable" says pathologist, from Portsmouth:

Inquest told former Portsmouth woman died after AstraZeneca vaccine probably led to blood clots

A PATHOLOGIST has told an inquest that the AstraZeneca vaccine probably led to blood clots that killed a woman who had taken the jab.

www.google.com

My intention was to post one link, the BBC presenter from Newcaste, which I was aware of. I'm actually pretty shocked to have found that many examples, on the first page of a Google search for "woman dies from astrazeneca". How many unreported deaths do you think there have been globally? That's in addition to the recognised issues with clot risk in youngsters. Maybe they were all just amazing coincidence and the Coroners all got it wrong - after all, they're not scientists.

As I said, placing your faith entirely in the government scientists is entirely your choice, and no doubt that makes you a very good citizen indeed, but it would be wise to refrain from professing at this relatively early stage that those who have their doubts are unequivocally wrong.

To clarify, I am not an anti vaxxer! I've had both of my initial doses, and suffered no ill effects of any sort. However, I do have concerns over what appears to have turned into a policy of merrily jabbing endlessly away until a better idea comes along.

 

[Bikeman78]

Here it is:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59481287



When I was in Tesco this morning, they were playing the 'wear a mask' message over the public address. No door guard but I was there at a quiet time.

They have never stopped being required in Wales but all the shops that I visit lost interest months ago. No door guards, no queues. They've also stopped cleaning all the trolley handles. Will be interesting to see if any of it comes back.

The Telegraph is reporting today that

NEW COVID RESTRICTIONS TO LAST UNTIL MARCH

This headline only refers to the requirement to self isolate for 10 days if you come into contact with a case of the Omicron variant, and this has been written into law until March 24th.

The face nappy regulations still currently expire on December 20th.

Of course we know how well track and trace worked last time don't we?

And people will soon cotton on to the fact that you are not legally obliged to self isolate just because you are pinged by the App, nor are you legally obliged to download the app in the first place, or even have a smartphone.

You can also refuse to pick up phone number you don't recognise, so you will never be contacted by NHS Track and Trace anyway.

I don't know who the government thinks they are trying to kid.

To be honest, I didn't realise that track and trace was still a thing. Does anyone still check in to places any more? I deleted the Covid app a few days ago. Had it for over a year and it only went off twice.

 

[quantinghome]

I'm afraid the issue has moved beyond choice, certainly in some places globally if not yet entirely at a national level. Although many would suggest that the Scots and Welsh have already arrived there with the passport scheme, that of course is one for perpetual debate.

Placing your trust entirely in what scientists who have been put in front of the cameras by government tell you, is indeed one way of approaching this. However, it is clear that there are sizeable gaps in their own knowledge, and the current approach regarding boosters is by their own admission a bit of a "best shot" panic effort; that much was very clear from the Omicron briefing. You suggest that healthy people in their 40s have died as a direct result of not being vaccinated - how many people do you think are in that category? People of a similar age have died as a direct result of bloodclots caused by the vaccine; here are a few of them:

51, from Wales:

Woman, 51, died after Covid vaccine triggered blood clots

“The deceased died as the consequences of the unrecognised, rare complications of a recently administered elective and necessary Covid-19 vaccination.”

www.google.com

35, from London:

'Wonderful and loving' mum died from complications of AstraZeneca Covid vaccine

Healthy Alpa Tailor, 35, who took the vaccine to 'protect her family', fell ill just over a week after getting her first dose in March this year after complaining of a headache

www.google.com

34, from New S Wales:

NSW woman, 34, becomes Australia's seventh AstraZeneca-related death

The Therapeutic Goods Administration says the woman died on Wednesday from a confirmed case of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome.

www.abc.net.au

44, From Newcastle:

BBC presenter Lisa Shaw died of Covid vaccine complications, coroner finds

Shaw died of a brain haemorrhage caused by a blood clot three weeks after her first AstraZeneca dose

www.theguardian.com

51, "probable" says pathologist, from Portsmouth:

Inquest told former Portsmouth woman died after AstraZeneca vaccine probably led to blood clots

A PATHOLOGIST has told an inquest that the AstraZeneca vaccine probably led to blood clots that killed a woman who had taken the jab.

www.google.com

My intention was to post one link, the BBC presenter from Newcaste, which I was aware of. I'm actually pretty shocked to have found that many examples, on the first page of a Google search for "woman dies from astrazeneca". How many unreported deaths do you think there have been globally? That's in addition to the recognised issues with clot risk in youngsters. Maybe they were all just amazing coincidence and the Coroners all got it wrong - after all, they're not scientists.

As I said, placing your faith entirely in the government scientists is entirely your choice, and no doubt that makes you a very good citizen indeed, but it would be wise to refrain from professing at this relatively early stage that those who have their doubts are unequivocally wrong.

If I may say so, that's a highly emotive framing of the argument, from which I have deliberately refrained. Of course these individual deaths are terrible, but they say nothing about the relative risk of vaccination side effects compared to being unvaccinated. There are many media articles about people who have refused to be vaccinated and then died from Covid, but I refrained from posting them as I don't want to engage in that sort of emotive argument.

You have presented media reports of the few extremely rare occurrences of deaths due to vaccine complications. They have been well publicised; you're not sharing anything that's new to me. It is natural for news organisations to focus on these cases, because they are rare and therefore newsworthy. Meanwhile hundreds of people are dying from Covid every day, but that is no longer news. As an analogy, rail travel is very safe compared to roads, but when there's a rail accident the media present it as headline news, because it is so rare. Meanwhile the daily deaths on roads remain largely unreported. Yet there is no doubt that rail travel is safer than road travel.

This source: COVID-19 vaccination and blood clotting (publishing.service.gov.uk) suggests the risk of clotting is 10 per million.

This source: Why are older people more at risk of coronavirus? (theconversation.com) suggests the risk of dying from Covid in the 40-49 age bracket if unvaccinated is 0.4% i.e. 4000 per million.

Even if these sources were out by an order of magnitude, it would still be far less risky to get vaccinated.

Anyway, I think I've said all that can be usefully said on this. I hope the information I have presented will assist you in assessing the relative risks dispassionately.