Here we go again.How does the condition of the 365s compared with the 333s?
It was a genuine question in light of what happened with the 332's.Here we go again.
Cue 1000 suggestions to reduce (or bust) capacity on the Airedale Line using trains that Northern don’t need.
The removal of the 332s was a bit different though as their purpose built depot needed to be demolished (and a new depot would have needed to be built) and the 387s were available (and could be maintained at Reading). Moreover, they didn't have the required signalling system.It was a genuine question in light of what happened with the 332's.
Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.The removal of the 332s was a bit different though as their purpose built depot needed to be demolished (and a new depot would have needed to be built) and the 387s were available (and could be maintained at Reading). Moreover, they didn't have the required signalling system.
The withdrawal of 332s didn't have specific implications for the 333s.
There were some reports during 2020 about bogie cracking but the unit affected has returned to service.Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.
Those changes aren't unusualAt what cost? What other 25 year old stock has ever gone through such an extensive rebuild? They'd basically end up being 25 year old "new" trains - at which point buying genuinely new trains makes more sense, particularly when it can be tied to other orders as was the case with the 387s.
Sorry I thought you were going down the usual forum road of trying to replace them for no apparent reason.Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.
Those changes aren't unusual
The related Chiltern 165s had air cooling fitted, their windows replaced to remove the hoppers and some of the seating replaced. The older Southern and SWT 455s had separate refurbishment programmes which transformed them inside
The 365s had had PRM compliance modifications completed so there was no issue there regarding PIS etc.In the case of the 165s when they were alot younger.
The point is the work which would have been needed to the 365s was: SDO (because of platform lengths north of Royston which would otherwise have limited it to 4 car trains), Air Con, at table plugs etc, no doubt updates to the PIS at the same time - at which point the units would probably need significant re-work and wiring changes to accommodate. That's before you start on seats which are the "easy" bit in the scheme of things.
All on 25 year old trains. And there was a better option of simply increase the class 387 order which had the required features off the shelf and the Electrostar was already becoming one of two "standard" EMU types on the national network - the other being the Desiro. And from most passengers point of view a shiny new train is preferable to a 25 year old one, even a 25 year old one which has been through an overhaul.
Well a fair proportion of the 365s are much smaller pieces than the 333s currently are, which may prove a hinderance to further use...How does the condition of the 365s compared with the 333s?
SDO and at-seat power would have been expensive mods to install at this stage of the 365 lifespan. And Eversholt probably found that the ETCS mods were a lot more expensive than they had anticipated.The 365s had had PRM compliance modifications completed so there was no issue there regarding PIS etc.
That scrapping of reliable 25 year old units that were ideal for the services they were operating strikes me as symptomatic of the lack of planning in the upper echelons of the industry. In short, too many 387s were ordered.
ETCS isn't really relevant from Eversholt's point of view in terms of costs: it's a network change so is funded through Network Rail.SDO and at-seat power would have been expensive mods to install at this stage of the 365 lifespan. And Eversholt probably found that the ETCS mods were a lot more expensive than they had anticipated.
True but ETCS retrofits are undeniably a burden in terms of man-hours.ETCS isn't really relevant from Eversholt's point of view in terms of costs: it's a network change so is funded through Network Rail.
AC only? They were used in Kent for yearsWell.... I was always a fan of a 365 but...
They weren't faultless. Quite restricted routes. Older traction equipment, AC only and so on. Not sure where else they'd go tbh...
AC only? They were used in Kent for years
AC only? They were used in Kent for years
Correct.... they were, however, as many people pointed out and explained, the 3rd Rail capability was removed when they left South of the River and is unable to be restored..AC only? They were used in Kent for years
In the case of the 165s when they were alot younger.
The point is the work which would have been needed to the 365s was: SDO (because of platform lengths north of Royston which would otherwise have limited it to 4 car trains), Air Con, at table plugs etc, no doubt updates to the PIS at the same time - at which point the units would probably need significant re-work and wiring changes to accommodate. That's before you start on seats which are the "easy" bit in the scheme of things.
All on 25 year old trains. And there was a better option of simply increase the class 387 order which had the required features off the shelf and the Electrostar was already becoming one of two "standard" EMU types on the national network - the other being the Desiro. And from most passengers point of view a shiny new train is preferable to a 25 year old one, even a 25 year old one which has been through an overhaul.
Not to mention lower capacity, shorter vehicles, lack of aircon...Well a fair proportion of the 365s are much smaller pieces than the 333s currently are, which may prove a hinderance to further use...
Not to mention lower capacity, shorter vehicles, lack of aircon...
365s seem to have an inexplicably large fanboy contingent, I was never able to quite understand what people thought was so great about them... maybe it was the modified cab ends that everyone calls "happy trains" even though to me it looked more like a grimace than a grin.
365s seem to have an inexplicably large fanboy contingent, I was never able to quite understand what people thought was so great about them... maybe it was the modified cab ends that everyone calls "happy trains" even though to me it looked more like a grimace than a grin.
I only rode them a couple of times before the ruinous refurbishment, and I agree that they were very pleasant back then. I also agree that the "grin" looks hideous compared to the original Networker front. I'm just surprised they have such a cult following given that most of the things that made them good have been removed. The "late-stage BR" thing might be a reason, as per the 442s.I don’t think it’s to to do with the front. Indeed many of the alterations carried out to 365s over the years have tended to downgrade them - the smiley face is (arguably) uglier than the original, the revised seating layout caused issues (though was very suitable for the post-18 peak buster role), loss of carpet, harsh LED lighting, less pleasing interior colour scheme, etc.
The reason they have been popular is, in my view, quite simple. They have been consistently popular with and liked by the people who have used them on a daily basis since they first arrived. Comfortable, reliable, dependable, plenty of seats, reasonably spacious for standees, first class in the right place, every seat has a good window view - exactly what people want when they travel by train. They’re one of the few train designs which successfully managed to hit a sweet-spot where they are pretty suitable for any type of work - metro, inner-suburban, outer-suburban or express.
Many will also remember them in their as-delivered form, which I’d say rates amongst the best interiors ever designed for a commuter train. The Connex-interior Electrostars come close, but have never managed to be quite so spacious.
I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run
I only rode them a couple of times before the ruinous refurbishment, and I agree that they were very pleasant back then. I also agree that the "grin" looks hideous compared to the original Networker front. I'm just surprised they have such a cult following given that most of the things that made them good have been removed. The "late-stage BR" thing might be a reason, as per the 442s.
Though the 365-love isn't as puzzling as the 315s, of course!
Send them to Southern and let the 377s replace the 455s
I mean in theoryI was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run
But there’s no need, unless you want to pay an engineering consultancy to delivery a feasibility study.I mean in theory
That was Govia's plan to use 365's on the WCML if they'd been able to keep the West Midlands franchise.I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run