Could further uses have been found for the 365s?

[Bigman]

How does the condition of the 365s compared with the 333s?

 

[Neptune]

How does the condition of the 365s compared with the 333s?

Here we go again.

Cue 1000 suggestions to reduce (or bust) capacity on the Airedale Line using trains that Northern don’t need.

 

[Bigman]

Here we go again.

Cue 1000 suggestions to reduce (or bust) capacity on the Airedale Line using trains that Northern don’t need.

It was a genuine question in light of what happened with the 332's.

 

[JonathanH]

It was a genuine question in light of what happened with the 332's.

The removal of the 332s was a bit different though as their purpose built depot needed to be demolished (and a new depot would have needed to be built) and the 387s were available (and could be maintained at Reading). Moreover, they didn't have the required signalling system.

The withdrawal of 332s didn't have specific implications for the 333s.

 

[Bigman]

The removal of the 332s was a bit different though as their purpose built depot needed to be demolished (and a new depot would have needed to be built) and the 387s were available (and could be maintained at Reading). Moreover, they didn't have the required signalling system.

The withdrawal of 332s didn't have specific implications for the 333s.

Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.

There were some reports during 2020 about bogie cracking but the unit affected has returned to service.

 

[Mikey C]

At what cost? What other 25 year old stock has ever gone through such an extensive rebuild? They'd basically end up being 25 year old "new" trains - at which point buying genuinely new trains makes more sense, particularly when it can be tied to other orders as was the case with the 387s.

Those changes aren't unusual

The related Chiltern 165s had air cooling fitted, their windows replaced to remove the hoppers and some of the seating replaced. The older Southern and SWT 455s had separate refurbishment programmes which transformed them inside

 

[Neptune]

Thanks for that. I thought that I saw something in forums past that hinted at 333s having age related issues but I guess I got that wrong.

Sorry I thought you were going down the usual forum road of trying to replace them for no apparent reason.

Some minor cracking issues came to light on 333009 which were repaired and the rest of the fleet get regular checks but nothing further has come to light.

 

[A0wen]

Those changes aren't unusual

The related Chiltern 165s had air cooling fitted, their windows replaced to remove the hoppers and some of the seating replaced. The older Southern and SWT 455s had separate refurbishment programmes which transformed them inside

In the case of the 165s when they were alot younger.

The point is the work which would have been needed to the 365s was: SDO (because of platform lengths north of Royston which would otherwise have limited it to 4 car trains), Air Con, at table plugs etc, no doubt updates to the PIS at the same time - at which point the units would probably need significant re-work and wiring changes to accommodate. That's before you start on seats which are the "easy" bit in the scheme of things.

All on 25 year old trains. And there was a better option of simply increase the class 387 order which had the required features off the shelf and the Electrostar was already becoming one of two "standard" EMU types on the national network - the other being the Desiro. And from most passengers point of view a shiny new train is preferable to a 25 year old one, even a 25 year old one which has been through an overhaul.

 

[43096]

In the case of the 165s when they were alot younger.

The point is the work which would have been needed to the 365s was: SDO (because of platform lengths north of Royston which would otherwise have limited it to 4 car trains), Air Con, at table plugs etc, no doubt updates to the PIS at the same time - at which point the units would probably need significant re-work and wiring changes to accommodate. That's before you start on seats which are the "easy" bit in the scheme of things.

All on 25 year old trains. And there was a better option of simply increase the class 387 order which had the required features off the shelf and the Electrostar was already becoming one of two "standard" EMU types on the national network - the other being the Desiro. And from most passengers point of view a shiny new train is preferable to a 25 year old one, even a 25 year old one which has been through an overhaul.

The 365s had had PRM compliance modifications completed so there was no issue there regarding PIS etc.

That scrapping of reliable 25 year old units that were ideal for the services they were operating strikes me as symptomatic of the lack of planning in the upper echelons of the industry. In short, too many 387s were ordered.

 

[skyhigh]

How does the condition of the 365s compared with the 333s?

Well a fair proportion of the 365s are much smaller pieces than the 333s currently are, which may prove a hinderance to further use...

 

[D365]

The 365s had had PRM compliance modifications completed so there was no issue there regarding PIS etc.

That scrapping of reliable 25 year old units that were ideal for the services they were operating strikes me as symptomatic of the lack of planning in the upper echelons of the industry. In short, too many 387s were ordered.

SDO and at-seat power would have been expensive mods to install at this stage of the 365 lifespan. And Eversholt probably found that the ETCS mods were a lot more expensive than they had anticipated.

 

[43096]

SDO and at-seat power would have been expensive mods to install at this stage of the 365 lifespan. And Eversholt probably found that the ETCS mods were a lot more expensive than they had anticipated.

ETCS isn't really relevant from Eversholt's point of view in terms of costs: it's a network change so is funded through Network Rail.

 

[D365]

ETCS isn't really relevant from Eversholt's point of view in terms of costs: it's a network change so is funded through Network Rail.

True but ETCS retrofits are undeniably a burden in terms of man-hours.

 

[mmh]

Well.... I was always a fan of a 365 but...

They weren't faultless. Quite restricted routes. Older traction equipment, AC only and so on. Not sure where else they'd go tbh...

AC only? They were used in Kent for years

 

[A0wen]

AC only? They were used in Kent for years

AC traction motors and the DC shoegear etc was uninstalled some time ago and has apparently disappeared.

The bigger problem is their AC traction package causes interference with signalling systems - new units don't have the same problems.

In many respects the 365s were a bit of a prototype class - proved a number of things work *but* are non standard compared to what has followed.

 

[Fincra5]

AC only? They were used in Kent for years

AC only? They were used in Kent for years

Correct.... they were, however, as many people pointed out and explained, the 3rd Rail capability was removed when they left South of the River and is unable to be restored..

so yes, AC only

 

[bramling]

In the case of the 165s when they were alot younger.

The point is the work which would have been needed to the 365s was: SDO (because of platform lengths north of Royston which would otherwise have limited it to 4 car trains), Air Con, at table plugs etc, no doubt updates to the PIS at the same time - at which point the units would probably need significant re-work and wiring changes to accommodate. That's before you start on seats which are the "easy" bit in the scheme of things.

All on 25 year old trains. And there was a better option of simply increase the class 387 order which had the required features off the shelf and the Electrostar was already becoming one of two "standard" EMU types on the national network - the other being the Desiro. And from most passengers point of view a shiny new train is preferable to a 25 year old one, even a 25 year old one which has been through an overhaul.

The SDO issue would better have been dealt with by extending the four remaining platforms. SDO is a headache, not least because the services concerned tend to depart from the bay roads at Cambridge, where the entrance is at the back, which results in people having to shuffle through the train. In the grand scheme of things it’s a nothing job, especially as everything was mobilised when the partial job was done a few years ago.

As far as plug sockets and tables goes, this forum is strange at times. One minute anyone who criticises the lack of these features on the 700s is pilloried, in the next breath it’s terrible that they’re lacking on the 365s (which operate shorter-distance services than the 700s, especially the 700/1s). This is quite apart from the fact that 365s *do* have tables. With USB now being the in thing, retrofitting this to 365s wouldn’t be a massive issue.

So this leaves us with air conditioning. Hardly the end of the world. For every complaint about a non-air-con train in hot weather there’s another about air-con failing to work. The 365s did seem to attract perennial complaints about over-active heating, but personally I never found this a problem - being toasty warm whilst having crisp fresh air circulating from open windows I always found a very pleasant combination.

 

[duffers2324]

I always thought it would be good for the 365's to stay in Scotland after their initial stint and thought they could be used on the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines as an example but seemingly they had quite a high break down ratio up here and also after looking at the capacities in comparison to the 380's etc the 380's still have a greater capacity in regards to the 4 cars anyway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well a fair proportion of the 365s are much smaller pieces than the 333s currently are, which may prove a hinderance to further use...

Not to mention lower capacity, shorter vehicles, lack of aircon...

365s seem to have an inexplicably large fanboy contingent, I was never able to quite understand what people thought was so great about them... maybe it was the modified cab ends that everyone calls "happy trains" even though to me it looked more like a grimace than a grin.

 

[bramling]

Not to mention lower capacity, shorter vehicles, lack of aircon...

365s seem to have an inexplicably large fanboy contingent, I was never able to quite understand what people thought was so great about them... maybe it was the modified cab ends that everyone calls "happy trains" even though to me it looked more like a grimace than a grin.

I don’t think it’s to to do with the front. Indeed many of the alterations carried out to 365s over the years have tended to downgrade them - the smiley face is (arguably) uglier than the original, the revised seating layout caused issues (though was very suitable for the post-18 peak buster role), loss of carpet, harsh LED lighting, less pleasing interior colour scheme, etc.

The reason they have been popular is, in my view, quite simple. They have been consistently popular with and liked by the people who have used them on a daily basis since they first arrived. Comfortable, reliable, dependable, plenty of seats, reasonably spacious for standees, first class in the right place, every seat has a good window view - exactly what people want when they travel by train. They’re one of the few train designs which successfully managed to hit a sweet-spot where they are pretty suitable for any type of work - metro, inner-suburban, outer-suburban or express.

Many will also remember them in their as-delivered form, which I’d say rates amongst the best interiors ever designed for a commuter train. The Connex-interior Electrostars come close, but have never managed to be quite so spacious.

 

[tbtc]

365s seem to have an inexplicably large fanboy contingent, I was never able to quite understand what people thought was so great about them... maybe it was the modified cab ends that everyone calls "happy trains" even though to me it looked more like a grimace than a grin.

I've wondered that myself - presumably a lot of this is because of the nostalgia for the BR era and the final days of the Networker/Network South East period, which ties into the "unfinished business" of all of the other trains that BR released swanky images of - even though they were chopping 155s in half due to lack of money at the same time as building the 465s and coming up with wish lists for all these other classes they wanted to build?

They're not bad units (the 365s), but feel quite "of their time" and there's not really anywhere for them now, so I've no problem with them being chopped up - I'd have liked it if we'd done all of the CP5 electrification and were now going on to convert various "secondary" lines which would have found a home for surplus EMUs - I'd have liked it if we'd been able to successfully convert surplus more EMUs to bi-mode (like the 319/769 project) - I'd rather have a "765" on my local line than a 150 - but things didn't work out like this so I'm relaxed about scrapping them even if after only thirty years - the "forty year" lifespan gets treated as if it's like Logan's Run and everything must last no shorter and no longer than forty years - but some stock will always be scrapped at a younger age than average and some stock last beyond expectations - earlier scrapping is probably more common in non-standard stock (460s) or things that were prototypes for future generations (which seems a fair description for 365s)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don’t think it’s to to do with the front. Indeed many of the alterations carried out to 365s over the years have tended to downgrade them - the smiley face is (arguably) uglier than the original, the revised seating layout caused issues (though was very suitable for the post-18 peak buster role), loss of carpet, harsh LED lighting, less pleasing interior colour scheme, etc.

The reason they have been popular is, in my view, quite simple. They have been consistently popular with and liked by the people who have used them on a daily basis since they first arrived. Comfortable, reliable, dependable, plenty of seats, reasonably spacious for standees, first class in the right place, every seat has a good window view - exactly what people want when they travel by train. They’re one of the few train designs which successfully managed to hit a sweet-spot where they are pretty suitable for any type of work - metro, inner-suburban, outer-suburban or express.

Many will also remember them in their as-delivered form, which I’d say rates amongst the best interiors ever designed for a commuter train. The Connex-interior Electrostars come close, but have never managed to be quite so spacious.

I only rode them a couple of times before the ruinous refurbishment, and I agree that they were very pleasant back then. I also agree that the "grin" looks hideous compared to the original Networker front. I'm just surprised they have such a cult following given that most of the things that made them good have been removed. The "late-stage BR" thing might be a reason, as per the 442s.

Though the 365-love isn't as puzzling as the 315s, of course!

 

[Trainz_r_us]

I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run

 

[bramling]

I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run

I think I'm right in saying the WCML 319s already have a replacement planned, with the intention being for them to go at the same time as the 350/2s (the latter being another wasteful replacement!).

I only rode them a couple of times before the ruinous refurbishment, and I agree that they were very pleasant back then. I also agree that the "grin" looks hideous compared to the original Networker front. I'm just surprised they have such a cult following given that most of the things that made them good have been removed. The "late-stage BR" thing might be a reason, as per the 442s.

I think the following has stuck simply because they're still pretty nice to use, and whilst they've been "dumbed down" over the years this has only served to bring them more into line with other fleets. Thankfully they managed to avoid ironing-board seats, and they retained the warm-as-toast heating to the end too. The loss of carpet and fitment of cold LED lighting did spoil the ambience a lot, though.

Though the 365-love isn't as puzzling as the 315s, of course!

I think the 315 love-in centres around people who have worked on them for very many years. For me that's quite understandable. I must admit the PEP-derived fleets have grown on me over the years, mainly for their rugged simplicity. The 365s seem unusual in that they were well liked right from day one, aside from a few moans south of the river complaining that the seats weren't as soft as the slam-door trains!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Send them to Southern and let the 377s replace the 455s

Edit: hit my 1000th post!

 

[bramling]

Send them to Southern and let the 377s replace the 455s

Doesn't resolve the DC issue, unfortunately. If they could easily have been made to work again on DC, it seems quite possible we could have seen something like 365 to SE, 376 to Southern, or something along those lines.

 

[Trainz_r_us]

I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run

I mean in theory

 

[D365]

I mean in theory

But there’s no need, unless you want to pay an engineering consultancy to delivery a feasibility study.

 

[MatthewRead]

There

I was wondering are 365s capable of working services on the WCML services as the 319s run

That was Govia's plan to use 365's on the WCML if they'd been able to keep the West Midlands franchise.