Vivarail chosen for GWR fast charging trial.

[Taunton]

a small sub fleet of clapped out underground trains

It's apparent you never used them at the end of Underground service. They had been very extensively remanufactured not long before, and were in perfect condition for all day service on one of the heaviest loading routes in the country. When they came back from this substantial overhaul they were generally regarded by passengers as "the new trains". It seemed a real waste to dump them prematurely, as Vivarail doubtless noticed. There's a lot still running on the Underground, reliably, older than these.

 

[BayPaul]

One of the potential issues may be the turnaround times at each ends of the branch - some of the Looe and St Ives services have very short turnaround times so would the battery have enough of an opportunity to charge throughout the day?

That said, less reliance on diesel can only be a good thing when looking to reduce carbon emissions.

Would the faster acceleration of the BEMU over a DMU help to mitigate this. Both Looe and St Ives are also very short branches, so could perhaps manage a 3-5 minute charge each turn to keep topped up, rather than needing a full 10 mins.

 

[Chris125]

I don't hate Vivarail. I would say I am a very disappointed user of thier unreliable trains. I know the vivarail lovers want to overlook actual user testimony but the truth is self evident for those of us who have had to rely on these trains.

I rely on their trains too!

...and in my 'actual user testimony' reliability was better than expected and, touch wood, is becoming excellent - the 484s have barely had a hiccup in the last 3-4 weeks despite the icy weather. Heating needs sorting but otherwise they've settled down really well and seem to be proving popular with staff and other passengers too.

While I have sympathy for the experience of Marston Vale users I gather even those units have seen a significant improvement in reliability, and with battery units needing neither diesel engines nor a conductor rail I don't see any cause for concern.

 

[Brissle Girl]

One of the potential issues may be the turnaround times at each ends of the branch - some of the Looe and St Ives services have very short turnaround times so would the battery have enough of an opportunity to charge throughout the day?

That said, less reliance on diesel can only be a good thing when looking to reduce carbon emissions.

At 6 miles per minute of recharge, I don't see that would be a problem, given it takes around 3 minutes each end to turn around.

 

[Roast Veg]

I don't see how having a small sub fleet of clapped out underground trains, saves anything over using existing stock based out of Reading

The long term plan is to get the networkers out of Reading and send them south west. This, along with the 769s, is part of that strategy.

 

[Chris125]

Sounds like a waste of money.
I don't see how having a small sub fleet of clapped out underground trains, saves anything over using existing stock based out of Reading

I fail to see how they can be described as 'clapped out' - pretty much the only thing original is the body, with a much more modern replacement interior on modern bogies, new cabs and a new traction package.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I rely on their trains too!

...and in my 'actual user testimony' reliability was better than expected and, touch wood, is becoming excellent - barely a hiccup in the last 3-4 weeks despite the icy weather. Heating needs sorting but otherwise they've settled down really well and seem to be proving popular with staff and other passengers too.

While I have sympathy for the experience of Marston Vale users I gather even those units have seen a significant improvement in reliability, and with battery units needing neither diesel engines nor a conductor rail I don't see any cause for concern.

Isle of Wight?

I do hope the battery ones are reliable like those. The issues with the MV ones were very much related to overheating of diesel engines. They have four, which does help the train continue if one fails/shuts down, but it was initially very common to be down to two which meant a lot of lost time, if they worked at all.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Why? They would seem perfect for Looe and Gunnislake

Not really,too heavily graded. Slough-Windsor,perfect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really,too heavily graded. Slough-Windsor,perfect.

Gradient doesn't matter, as you can use the downhill to recharge the battery on regen rather than just kicking it out as heat from the brake discs.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Gradient doesn't matter, as you can use the downhill to recharge the battery on regen rather than just kicking it out as heat from the brake discs.

Cheers,I didn’t know they were regenerative.

 

[Horizon22]

Sounds like a waste of money.
I don't see how having a small sub fleet of clapped out underground trains, saves anything over using existing stock based out of Reading

It's a good trial for something that reduces emissions on a short branch line with short platforms, limited passenger numbers and no hope of being electrified in the near future.

The only issue would be getting a diagram to work, as they don't have long at either W. Ealing or Greenford at present to charge up but dependent on how the tech works, it might be suitable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's a good trial for something that reduces emissions on a line with short platforms, limited passenger numbers and no hope of being electrified in the near future.

yeah the poster seems to have missed out on the whole push on the industry to reduce emissions!

 

[Horizon22]

yeah the poster seems to have missed out on the whole push on the industry to reduce emissions!

Indeed. Its one of the only diesel islands left in London and therefore this solution even if not ideal (which would be lengthening platforms to take a 4-car 387 and electrifying) is a good step forward and I think also the right sort of place to test the technology.

 

[Irascible]

What sort of grid connection do these charging units need?

 

[DarloRich]

...and in my 'actual user testimony' reliability was better than expected and, touch wood, is becoming excellent - the 484s have barely had a hiccup in the last 3-4 weeks despite the icy weather. Heating needs sorting but otherwise they've settled down really well and seem to be proving popular with staff and other passengers too.

While I have sympathy for the experience of Marston Vale users I gather even those units have seen a significant improvement in reliability, and with battery units needing neither diesel engines nor a conductor rail I don't see any cause for concern.

listen I am really pleased if the Island Trains are doing well. I wish mine had been so good. As I said the internals of the trains are fantastic and SHOULD have had a similar impact on the perception of users on my line. Sadly the shoddy service has forfeited all of that.

btw I will take your word on reliability improvements on the vale. I haven't seen them!

 

[Mikey C]

Greenford is a perfect place to try these out. An unimportant branch line in case anything goes wrong AND in London where air quality is more of an issue than even the Marlow branch line.

Indeed while the original Vivarail idea of powering the D78s with Ford Transit engines seems a bit of a lemon all round (unreliable AND creating new DMUs just when diesel was going out of fashion), the second wave of battery powered units looks like a winning product for quiet branch lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

listen I am really pleased if the Island Trains are doing well. I wish mine had been so good. As I said the internals of the trains are fantastic and SHOULD have had a similar impact on the perception of users on my line. Sadly the shoddy service has forfeited all of that.

btw I will take your word on reliability improvements on the vale. I haven't seen them!

It's a bit hard to see them when it's been replacement buses for several months, to be fair!

 

[A0wen]

Greenford is a perfect place to try these out. An unimportant branch line in case anything goes wrong AND in London where air quality is more of an issue than even the Marlow branch line.

Indeed while the original Vivarail idea of powering the D78s with Ford Transit engines seems a bit of a lemon all round (unreliable AND creating new DMUs just when diesel was going out of fashion), the second wave of battery powered units looks like a winning product for quiet branch lines.

BIB - not for the first time, these were not mechanically powering the units, instead they were acting as electrical generators. So the fact they were "only" Transit engines was kind of irrelevant. The issues that did occur tended to be around cooling and airflow - which with ground (or near) ground mounted engines running on a rural line where dust and pollen is more prevalent was a problem, it was exacerbated by a period of dry, hot weather in their early days.

 

[hooverboy]

The only reason I've ever decried Vivarail is because the unreliability of their units caused a collapse of the Marston Vale timetable. If they've sorted that or the battery units don't suffer the same issues (most of them related to the diesel engines), great. In terms of travelling on them they are fine.

The primary reason for vivarail being so unreliable on the marston line is the over-engineering of the power plants(2* bigger capacity lower rev would have been more reliable) ,ripping out the 40 year old tried and tested DC traction system for computer controlled AC inverters/IGBT's and so on and the cooling systems required.

District line DC traction was absolutely bullet proof when it was in service on LU, so I think it really was being a case of being too clever by half.If it ain't broke, don't fix it!. The bean counters have plainly got their justification for "potential savings" of new-fangled tech, but for a low cost ,low budget line and the timescales such vehicles were proposed to be in use,does it/did it really warrant all the time and expense of getting something that is cheap and just works.

Island line has also suffered a bit from the AC traction and computer/software systems.

I'm not disputing that BEV's are the future,and fast charge is an essential part of that.However the best place for experiments is on the old dlaby test track, not when you are earning revenue.
Fee paying service and their customers demand transport that turns up 100% of the time,all the time.

 

[mmh]

BIB - not for the first time

What does BIB mean? I'm not exactly a stranger to Internet abbreviations, but that's the second time you've used that and I still have no idea what you mean.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does BIB mean? I'm not exactly a stranger to Internet abbreviations, but that's the second time you've used that and I still have no idea what you mean.

I had to Google it, it means "bit in bold".

 

[irish_rail]

Trouble is the GWR 150s are pretty ok internally, and although reliability has dipped lately, I don't remember a complete failure at any time I've ever been on one. The vivarail stuff has a reputation that proceeds it however! And why would we replace one old train with another.

Whilst I don't expect new trains on the south west branches something better than the 150 would be nice, or perhaps maybe keep the 150s going for a few more years until something better comes along (not a recycled tube train!)

 

[MarkyT]

This is great news. If the time taken to recharge at W. Ealing isn't sufficient (can't see it myself) then a second fast-charge station might be installed at Greenford. With current timings, trains have three minutes at each end. Perhaps the 230s might have slightly better acceleration than the existing trains so might save a few minutes each way. If you can put 60+ miles range into the battery in 10 minutes, the 5 mile round trip, proportionately, would take under a minute to add for each circuit. The battery could be downsized accordingly, but in a real-world application, its capacity should ideally be able to cover a significant number of round trips so any unexpected outage of charging stations wouldn't quickly bring the service to a standstill, and the trains need to be able to get to a depot or servicing location.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trouble is the GWR 150s are pretty ok internally, and although reliability has dipped lately, I don't remember a complete failure at any time I've ever been on one. The vivarail stuff has a reputation that proceeds it however! And why would we replace one old train with another.

Because there is a need to stop burning dead dinosaurs. The railway's contribution to doing this is relatively small, but the railway's environmental credential is really important - if it loses it, such branch lines are under serious threat from electric buses.

150s might be reliable (they are indeed), but they have 1980s engines which don't meet Euro anything.

The argument above is a bit like "why are we replacing 150s with almost-equally-old 319s in the North West" - the answer to which is "because they are EMUs".

 

[MarkyT]

Trouble is the GWR 150s are pretty ok internally, and although reliability has dipped lately, I don't remember a complete failure at any time I've ever been on one. The vivarail stuff has a reputation that proceeds it however! And why would we replace one old train with another.

Whilst I don't expect new trains on the south west branches something better than the 150 would be nice, or perhaps maybe keep the 150s going for a few more years until something better comes along (not a recycled tube train!)

I agree. GWR and Westcountry citizens have been good at keeping them nice inside. Perhaps the 150s might be refurbed and converted to battery operation (sorry, that's speculation, and not very serious!) D-Trains without diesels should not have the reliability issues experienced on the Marston Vale, and as others have said they are very nice inside. Ordinary punters would hardly be able to tell their age.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. GWR and Westcountry citizens have been good at keeping them nice inside. Perhaps the 150s might be refurbed and converted to battery operation (sorry, that's speculation, and not very serious!)

If you did want something looking like a 150 but as a BEMU, it'd be easier to convert an ex-South East EMU and move the seats over. 455s, 456s etc are the same body.

 

[hwl]

This is great news. If the time taken to recharge at W. Ealing isn't sufficient (can't see it myself) then a second fast-charge station might be installed at Greenford. With current timings, trains have three minutes at each end. Perhaps the 230s might have slightly better acceleration than the existing trains so might save a few minutes each way. If you can put 60+ miles range into the battery in 10 minutes, the 5 mile round trip, proportionately, would take under a minute to add for each circuit. The battery could be downsized accordingly, but in a real-world application, its capacity should ideally be able to cover a significant number of round trips so any unexpected outage of charging stations wouldn't quickly bring the service to a standstill, and the trains need to be able to get to a depot or servicing location.

Fast charging is harsh on battery life though and needs much more expensive batteries than other BEMU solutions that would be used on partly electrified routes with lower charging rates (more conventional battery technology), hence a large part of the trial is to evaluate how batteries and charging technology will cope in real world branch line use for a number of years before betting big on it as a solution. In some cases wiring the first few easy miles of a branch might be far cheaper for batteries but they only way to tell involves benchmarking fast charging solutions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fast charging is harsh on battery life though and needs much more expensive batteries than other BEMU solutions that would be used on partly electrified routes with lower charging rates (more conventional battery technology), hence a large part of the trial is to evaluate how batteries and charging technology will cope in real world branch line use for a number of years before betting big on it as a solution. In some cases wiring the first few easy miles of a branch might be far cheaper for batteries but they only way to tell involves benchmarking fast charging solutions.

And there's barely a better place to do it than a branch line that hardly anybody would even notice if it closed completely, as it has loads of better alternatives. It's not pretty, it's not quaint and it's not well-used - very much London's railway ugly duckling, and unlikely to turn into a fine swan any time soon. A bit of unreliability might get reported on here, but is unlikely to even make the local rag there.

 

[BayPaul]

Because there is a need to stop burning dead dinosaurs. The railway's contribution to doing this is relatively small, but the railway's environmental credential is really important - if it loses it, such branch lines are under serious threat from electric buses.

150s might be reliable (they are indeed), but they have 1980s engines which don't meet Euro anything.

This (or something like it) is also the only realistic way of decarbonising these small branchlines. Even the most ardent 'just string the knitting up' electrification enthusiast is unlikely to see the Looe branch as a likely candidate in the next 2 decades. This way, it could go electric in a couple of years, well before the Cornish mainline.

 

[MarkyT]

If you did want something looking like a 150 but as a BEMU, it'd be easier to convert an ex-South East EMU and move the seats over. 455s, 456s etc are the same body.

They got new motors and traction control systems recently as well. They'd have to be a minimum of 3-car units as well because the motor car is an intermediate. That might not be suitable for some of the branches.