Vivarail chosen for GWR fast charging trial.

[wobman]

The only reason I've ever decried Vivarail is because the unreliability of their units caused a collapse of the Marston Vale timetable. If they've sorted that or the battery units don't suffer the same issues (most of them related to the diesel engines), great. In terms of travelling on them they are fine.

The tfw 230's still aren't in service.....

 

[mmh]

And there's barely a better place to do it than a branch line that hardly anybody would even notice if it closed completely, as it has loads of better alternatives. It's not pretty, it's not quaint and it's not well-used - very much London's railway ugly duckling, and unlikely to turn into a fine swan any time soon. A bit of unreliability might get reported on here, but is unlikely to even make the local rag there.

I'm very cynical about battery trains I'll admit, but you're spot on there. Trials need to take place, and they need to be in that sort of place.

The Conwy Valley line's trials and tribulations are often mentioned on here, while locally a random closure for a week, as happened recently, is completely unremarkable and doesn't even warrant a mention in the local rag.

They got new motors and traction control systems recently as well. They'd have to be a minimum of 3-car units as well because the motor car is an intermediate. That might not be suitable for some of the branches.

The motor car cannot be an intermediate car on a 456, of course

Both classes though are toilet-less, which could be a problem.

 

[Chris125]

listen I am really pleased if the Island Trains are doing well. I wish mine had been so good. As I said the internals of the trains are fantastic and SHOULD have had a similar impact on the perception of users on my line. Sadly the shoddy service has forfeited all of that.

Of course, and I can't blame you for being disappointed, but it was unfair to say 'vivarail lovers' were overlooking 'actual user testimony' - the 484s are proving very successful, better than I dared hope tbh, so I don't see why similar battery units on the mainland couldn't be too.

 

[swt_passenger]

What will the class number range be for a pure battery unit? I see PR referring to it as a “battery 230”, but that can’t be right?

 

[MarkyT]

Fast charging is harsh on battery life though and needs much more expensive batteries than other BEMU solutions that would be used on partly electrified routes with lower charging rates (more conventional battery technology), hence a large part of the trial is to evaluate how batteries and charging technology will cope in real world branch line use for a number of years before betting big on it as a solution. In some cases wiring the first few easy miles of a branch might be far cheaper for batteries but they only way to tell involves benchmarking fast charging solutions.

Perhaps the charging current might be varied at the charge station to optimise battery life. As I said, the 5-mile round trip range might be added in under a minute, yet the circuit has six minutes dwell today at terminals so two charge stations could charge at a slower rate. Also if a unit with a large battery started off fully charged it needn't fully refresh to full at each charge, but rather could gradually deplete through the day instead and do a big slow charge at night while stabling. The full fast charging capability would still be there as a fallback rather than being used at every opportunity.

The motor car cannot be an intermediate car on a 456, of course

Very good point I'd overlooked. So they could be uniquely valuable used trains for this kind of niche!

Both classes though are toilet-less, which could be a problem.

A modular bathroom might be added perhaps in refurb, as Vivarail have demonstrated with the D-Trains.

 

[Jim]

The limitation could be distance to/from depot. Can the unit get all the way there? Does it need to stop for a fresh charge on the way? Is there somewhere suitable to put the equipment that coincides with the best stopping points? Is there a timetable implication? What about out of course set swaps in the day?

Not insurmountable but it will be a consideration.

I guess they could always do what happens on the Stourbridge Line, each branch has 2 units and a mini shed?

Or perhaps a bigger shed at Par, which would capture Falmouth too. Plenty of space at Blazey these days isn't there?

As for branch line turn arounds, wonder if they could up line speeds due to lighter stock etc?

 

[cactustwirly]

The long term plan is to get the networkers out of Reading and send them south west. This, along with the 769s, is part of that strategy.

The Turbos are still needed at Reading even with 769s.

I don't what this project achieves except waste money, and ticks a box.

This line is very lightly used, and will always be that way unless it is connected to somewhere more useful than West Ealing.

 

[andystock22]

The Slough to Windsor branch would be idea for Battery trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Slough to Windsor branch would be idea for Battery trains.

It would (unless you were going to wire it and use an Electrostar) - and more to the point it'd be ideal for D78s in as-built layout due to their ability to handle large crowds as they did in their former life.

However, it wouldn't be ideal for a trial, because it is very heavily used. Trials are best done on backwaters, and the Greenford branch is as backwater as London gets. It also doesn't have multiple intermediate stations, which you'd probably want for a trial.

 

[cactustwirly]

It would (unless you were going to wire it and use an Electrostar) - and more to the point it'd be ideal for D78s in as-built layout due to their ability to handle large crowds as they did in their former life.

However, it wouldn't be ideal for a trial, because it is very heavily used. Trials are best done on backwaters, and the Greenford branch is as backwater as London gets. It also doesn't have multiple intermediate stations, which you'd probably want for a trial.

A 2 car 230 is a significant capacity decrease compared to a 2 car 165.
The 165 is wider and longer than the 230.

You'd need a 4 car train, which is more expensive than a 2 car DMU. Plus you'd need a way of getting your battery powered unit to and from Reading for servicing.

 

[JonathanH]

Plus you'd need a way of getting your battery powered unit to and from Reading for servicing.

Aren't VivaRail going to do most servicing in West Ealing sidings so could do likewise at Slough? A bit speculative at this stage.

 

[fgwrich]

Aren't VivaRail going to do most servicing in West Ealing sidings so could do likewise at Slough? A bit speculative at this stage.

They are. Reading wasn't mentioned in the contract advert, maintenance to be done at West Ealing.

If this frees up a Turbo, and finally provides a solution to one of London's Diesel Islands, then I'm all for it. A 165 might be a bigger unit than a 230, but I highly doubt a 165 will ever be full on the branch, and 230001 - the unit to be used - is a 3 car unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 2 car 230 is a significant capacity decrease compared to a 2 car 165.

You'd use a 3 or 4-car as the vehicles are shorter. An equivalent length of 230 has a far higher capacity than of 165 due to the standee layout. Were this not the case the Tube would have a 3+2 seating layout.

You'd need a 4 car train, which is more expensive than a 2 car DMU. Plus you'd need a way of getting your battery powered unit to and from Reading for servicing.

230s are designed for local servicing using basic equipment. That's part of the premise of them, and one reason they were suited to use on the Marston Vale as this avoided needing to swap them with Tyseley DMUs - they can be maintained at Bletchley despite this not having been a "proper" TMD for a long time.

Having said that, Reading is only 20 miles, that would be well within range if you sat it there for a bit to get a decent charge before taking it to the depot.

 

[The exile]

It would (unless you were going to wire it and use an Electrostar) - and more to the point it'd be ideal for D78s in as-built layout due to their ability to handle large crowds as they did in their former life.

However, it wouldn't be ideal for a trial, because it is very heavily used. Trials are best done on backwaters, and the Greenford branch is as backwater as London gets. It also doesn't have multiple intermediate stations, which you'd probably want for a trial.

Three intermediates is probably enough for something intended for branchlines

 

[Bletchleyite]

Three intermediates is probably enough for something intended for branchlines

Agreed. Windsor, however, has none, and so is less suitable.

 

[cactustwirly]

Aren't VivaRail going to do most servicing in West Ealing sidings so could do likewise at Slough? A bit speculative at this stage.

They can only do basic maintenance.
Surely the exams and heavy maintenance needs to be done at a place with a lift/inspection pit

 

[MarkyT]

The Turbos are still needed at Reading even with 769s.

I don't what this project achieves except waste money, and ticks a box.

This line is very lightly used, and will always be that way unless it is connected to somewhere more useful than West Ealing.

If the Oxford area is wired as originally planned (now resignalling and remodelling are at a suitable stage), and TV branches are tackled with innovative solutions such as this, then surely the Turbos COULD finally become surplus in the Reading area.

 

[JonathanH]

They can only do basic maintenance.
Surely the exams and heavy maintenance needs to be done at a place with a lift/inspection pit

One of the principles that VivaRail put in place was to allow the engine / batteries / traction to be removed as a module so lift / inspection pit wasn't needed routinely. When the time comes to do a more thorough exam, it can be taken back to the place set up for that.

If the Oxford area is wired as originally planned (now resignalling and remodelling are at a suitable stage), and TV branches are tackled with innovative solutions such as this, then surely the Turbos COULD finally become surplus in the Reading area.

Even before then, five Turbos can operate out of Oxford based at Bristol rather than Reading. A Turbo is also needed for Newbury to Bedwyn peak workings (all day at the moment).

As you say, Windsor, Marlow and Greenford could be operated with the battery solution.

 

[D365]

You have missed my point. The 1950s battery set worked fine for years on a 45 mile line. We constantly hear about battery improvements coming just now, ignoring what was achieved long ago.

Lead batteries can’t fast charge, which is important when you want to minimise depth of discharge (increase battery cycles).

What will the class number range be for a pure battery unit? I see PR referring to it as a “battery 230”, but that can’t be right?

Class 630?

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps the charging current might be varied at the charge station to optimise battery life. As I said, the 5-mile round trip range might be added in under a minute, yet the circuit has six minutes dwell today at terminals so two charge stations could charge at a slower rate. Also if a unit with a large battery started off fully charged it needn't fully refresh to full at each charge, but rather could gradually deplete through the day instead and do a big slow charge at night while stabling. The full fast charging capability would still be there as a fallback rather than being used at every opportunity.

For a trial it would be better to put the battery under a bit of stress to see how it holds up over time. That would determine whether a similar but more "serious" conversion such as Windsor would need a second charger at both ends.

If the trial causes problems they can probably find a DMU to cover temporarily, as they will need to if the unit needs downtime for maintenance. Ultimately, as people have pointed out, both ends have alternative rail connections into London. If no train was available of any type, I imagine end to end passengers would be allowed to use alternative routes such as via Ealing Broadway and North Action, and a minibus would probably suffice for the intermediate stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a trial it would be better to put the battery under a bit of stress to see how it holds up over time. That would determine whether a similar but more "serious" conversion such as Windsor would need a second charger at both ends.

If the trial causes problems they can probably find a DMU to cover temporarily, as they will need to if the unit needs downtime for maintenance. Ultimately, as people have pointed out, both ends have alternative rail connections into London. If no train was available of any type, I imagine end to end passengers could be allowed to use alternative routes such as via Ealing Broadway and North Action, and a minibus would probably suffice for the intermediate stations.

Bus route E11 seems to provide 3 services per hour to Ealing and Greenford (slightly more frequent than the train), so you wouldn't need to provide anything dedicated.

 

[The exile]

Agreed. Windsor, however, has none, and so is less suitable.

Yes - realised what you’d meant too late!

 

[Elecman]

What sort of grid connection do these charging units need?

I think it’s standard 400 volt charging either a large battery bank or super capacitor unit that charges slowly all day but enables rapid discharge into the train

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don't what this project achieves except waste money, and ticks a box.

It reduces emissions which is the whole aim of the project! Whether you agree on Decarbonisation or not the industry has targets to achieve and this helps test out the concept on a quiet but reasonably intensely timetable service.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say I am a very disappointed user of thier unreliable trains.

I must admit to not paying attention on this subject; what was the cause of their unreliability? If it was the power plant, then there’s not so much to worry about on the battery version.

What will the class number range be for a pure battery unit? I see PR referring to it as a “battery 230”, but that can’t be right?

We’re running out of numbers. I suggest we move to letters, still using three characters.
This is first up, so “AAA”

 

[swt_passenger]

We’re running our if numbers. I suggest we move to letters, still using three characters.
This is first up, so “AAA”

I’m glad you took the question in the spirit intended…

 

[D365]

I think it’s standard 400 volt charging either a large battery bank or super capacitor unit that charges slowly all day but enables rapid discharge into the train

A line side battery bank that supplies 750Vdc to the unit via carbon-ceramic third rail shoes.

 

[MarkyT]

It reduces emissions which is the whole aim of the project! Whether you agree on Decarbonisation or not the industry has targets to achieve and this helps test out the concept on a quiet but reasonably intensely timetable service.

In addition to carbon reduction potential, it also reduces local smoky emissions and noise that passengers, staff, and neighbours have to endure.

 

[ABB125]

We’re running out of numbers. I suggest we move to letters, still using three characters.
This is first up, so “AAA”

Surely VIV would be more appropriate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely VIV would be more appropriate?

2-VIV?