Vivarail chosen for GWR fast charging trial.

[SynthD]

What will the servicing sidings include? Assistance for the various slide-outs, water in/out for the toilet tank?

 

[Woods]

What will the servicing sidings include? Assistance for the various slide-outs, water in/out for the toilet tank?

General cleaning and CET de-tanking will take place in the GWR stabling sidings at West Ealing. Light maintenance will be carried out within the adjacent Plasser facility. Anything more substantial might require the unit to return to Bletchley but 'heavy' maintenance is not anticipated during the 12 months of the trial. What does 'various slide-outs' mean?

 

[JN114]

What will the servicing sidings include? Assistance for the various slide-outs, water in/out for the toilet tank?

West Ealing already CET/Water both HEx and GWR 387s - presuming the fittings on 230001 are "standard" then no changes should be required in that respect.

 

[BayPaul]

If I may pick up on a few technical points:

1) The charging rails will be in the four foot. These will basically be lengths of standard conductor rail as used in normal third rail territory. The rails will be earthed when there is no train above them (i.e. not live). Right from when Vivarail first started developing the system over 3 years ago, this modus operandi was agreed with ORR, who despite rumours have in fact been very sensible about this all along. The charging rails will only be energised once a series of Wifi interlocks combined with hard-wired position sensors has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the train is the correct train, has stopped in the right place, and is safe to receive charge.

2) The pickup shoes will be 'top contact' and retractable. They will be deployed just before the train comes to a halt. They will then be retracted before the train departs from the charging station.

3) The charging point will be at West Ealing station, in the bay platform. It will consist of two separate trackside charging containers (with storage batteries and switchgear inside them), each connected with a set of charge rails, one serving each Driving Motor car (where the onboard batteries are). This allows for some redundancy, i.e. if one trackside charger fails, the train could still be charged from the other one. There will not be a charging point at Greenford.

4) It is all Vivarail's design, has nothing to do with Alstom etc.

5) The train for the GWR trial will be 230001, in 3-car formation with a toilet in the middle car. It's the same train as demonstrated by Vivarail at COP26 back in November, with very little mods to the interior layout, except for the reinstatement of a few extra seats. The toilet is basically only there because all trains operated by GWR have to have a toilet regardless of the route they are operating on. However, because of this, it will be ever so slightly too long for some of the platforms therefore the outermost passenger doors will become 'crew only' doors.

6) It is the hope, certainly from Vivarail's perspective, that this system will be rolled out to many more rail routes in the UK and possibly abroad in order to provide 'electrification by other means'. Whether that is with Class 230s is another matter. In principle the technology could be fitted to other types of rolling stock.

Sounds like a really sensible and practical spec. Hopefully it'll be a very successful trial

 

[swt_passenger]

General cleaning and CET de-tanking will take place in the GWR stabling sidings at West Ealing. Light maintenance will be carried out within the adjacent Plasser facility. Anything more substantial might require the unit to return to Bletchley but 'heavy' maintenance is not anticipated during the 12 months of the trial. What does 'various slide-outs' mean?

I suspect “slide outs” is possibly a reference to the original 230 concept of changing out power packs for maintenance using a forklift and a man in a van, away from a normal depot. I think someone may have mentioned slide out batteries at one stage, but only in one of the usual hypothetical discussions…

 

[gingertom]

I suspect “slide outs” is possibly a reference to the original 230 concept of changing out power packs for maintenance using a forklift and a man in a van, away from a normal depot. I think someone may have mentioned slide out batteries at one stage, but only in one of the usual hypothetical discussions…

iirc Vivarail themselves suggested discharded battery packs can be swapped out in this manner for charged ones. I'm sure it can be carried out by suitably qualified and trained staff, subject to passing a safety case. Whether it is operationally expedient to do so is another matter altogether and sounds like a while can of worms..

 

[DownFast]

1) The charging rails will be in the four foot. These will basically be lengths of standard conductor rail as used in normal third rail territory. The rails will be earthed when there is no train above them (i.e. not live). Right from when Vivarail first started developing the system over 3 years ago, this modus operandi was agreed with ORR, who despite rumours have in fact been very sensible about this all along. The charging rails will only be energised once a series of Wifi interlocks combined with hard-wired position sensors has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the train is the correct train, has stopped in the right place, and is safe to receive charge.

If the charging rails are in the four foot, has the system been proven not to cause AWS irregularities due to electromagnetic interference?

 

[Woods]

If the charging rails are in the four foot, has the system been proven not to cause AWS irregularities due to electromagnetic interference?

It shouldn't do, but that will all be part of the EMC testing which will take place 'off line' at Bletchley before the charging equipment is deployed at West Ealing. Full compatability with the infrastructure will need to be proven for both train and charging equipment.

I suspect “slide outs” is possibly a reference to the original 230 concept of changing out power packs for maintenance using a forklift and a man in a van, away from a normal depot. I think someone may have mentioned slide out batteries at one stage, but only in one of the usual hypothetical discussions…

The large battery packs slung under the train fit in the same location as the diesel gensets on the WMTL and TfW fleets, but unlike diesel gensets, it is not envisaged that the battery rafts will have to be regularly removed for maintenance or recharging. In other quarters I know that some people have conceived of a system whereby rather than charging the batteries, the battery packs are automatically exchanged using some sort of 'slide out' system, but in reality this is very impractical due to the weight of them (several tonnes) and their sheer volume. Imagine the size of the mechanical handling system that might be required at terminal or intermediate stations. Better to be able to rapidly charge without removing them, via an automatic contact system, hence the Vivarail design.

West Ealing already CET/Water both HEx and GWR 387s - presuming the fittings on 230001 are "standard" then no changes should be required in that respect.

Yes they are standard fittings.

 

[45669]

A modular bathroom might be added perhaps in refurb, as Vivarail have demonstrated with the D-Trains.

Who's going to want to have a bath on a train!

 

[MarkyT]

Who's going to want to have a bath on a train!

Perhaps a quick shower! Sorry about the anodyne Americanism. The facility should have been referred to as a modular sh*thouse of course.

 

[45669]

Perhaps a quick shower! Sorry about the anodyne Americanism. The facility should have been referred to as a modular sh*thouse of course.

Khazi would do! However, if the trains are used in Wales, it would have to be 'Ty bach'.

 

[MarkyT]

If the charging rails are in the four foot, has the system been proven not to cause AWS irregularities due to electromagnetic interference?

The onboard sensor coils for AWS/TPWS should be a distance away from the charging pickup shoes. Trains with AWS/TPWS pass over track where conventional 4 rail electrification is used today. Suitable gaps in the centre rail are required, clearly, to accommodate the track transponders themselves.

 

[Fincra5]

If the charging rails are in the four foot, has the system been proven not to cause AWS irregularities due to electromagnetic interference?

I doubt there's even AWS Ramps within the bay platform at West Ealing.

 

[JN114]

I doubt there's even AWS Ramps within the bay platform at West Ealing.

There aren’t

 

[wobman]

I don't hate Vivarail. I would say I am a very disappointed user of thier unreliable trains. I know the vivarail lovers want to overlook actual user testimony but the truth is self evident for those of us who have had to rely on these trains.

I HOPE this product works better than the product offered on the Marston Vale line.


Because some of us have to rely on these trains! The service on my line has been so bad I have bought a car.


And that is what frustrates me immensely about the trains. inside they are MILES better than and 150/153 and much more accessible. They just don't work reliably enough.

When the trains were introduced there was a massive PR and goodwill upswing for the line and a chance to really increase numbers. All gone. All wasted.

Let's not forget the tfw 230's that still aren't in service

 

[wobman]

BIB - not for the first time, these were not mechanically powering the units, instead they were acting as electrical generators. So the fact they were "only" Transit engines was kind of irrelevant. The issues that did occur tended to be around cooling and airflow - which with ground (or near) ground mounted engines running on a rural line where dust and pollen is more prevalent was a problem, it was exacerbated by a period of dry, hot weather in their early days.

The tfw 230's have more problems than just pollen and dust, they have been through over 2 years of testing/ training through all seasons and they still aren't in service! It's a flawed concept using the diesel gensets, maybe keeping closer to the original D78 original design / use with 3rd rail may be more reliable....

 

[DownFast]

I doubt there's even AWS Ramps within the bay platform at West Ealing.

It's the interference from the electromagnetic field generated by the charging rails that I was referring to, not AWS magnets. If the magnetic field is sufficient to interfere with the receiver, then it can cause spurious AWS warnings (which is why AWS on 3rd-rail electrified lines is set up differently to non-3rd rail lines, with dual voltage AC/DC traction having separate AWS receivers with different sensitivities for each power mode). The answer up thread was 'it shouldn't', so hopefully it won't be an issue, but if it is it may mean the driver can't cancel the AWS self-test on activating the cab.

 

[DelW]

The tfw 230's have more problems than just pollen and dust, they have been through over 2 years of testing/ training through all seasons and they still aren't in service! It's a flawed concept using the diesel gensets, maybe keeping closer to the original D78 original design / use with 3rd rail may be more reliable....

Reports from the Isle of Wight are that the Vivarail 484s have settled in well on the third rail.

 

[Mikey C]

Reports from the Isle of Wight are that the Vivarail 484s have settled in well on the third rail.

Hardly a major technical challenge though, seeing that 2 previous generations of Underground stock have moved to the IoW

 

[gingertom]

Hardly a major technical challenge though, seeing that 2 previous generations of Underground stock have moved to the IoW

did those previous generations of underground stock have their traction equipment replaced as part of the move?

 

[wobman]

Reports from the Isle of Wight are that the Vivarail 484s have settled in well on the third rail.

The Isle of Wight work is fine got the D78 but retro fitting diesel powered gen sets does not work. Vivarail don't offer the option to other tocs the same as the tfw set up, this shows its flawed.

It's either using existing 3rd rail or solely battery power that suits these unit, the other set ups don't work.

 

[Mikey C]

did those previous generations of underground stock have their traction equipment replaced as part of the move?

No, but it's still a relatively simple thing to do

 

[adamello]

Vivarail trains are quickly becoming the new Pacers, wouldn't be suprised if they had a similar lifespan.

Do you mean surviving at least twice the lifespan that was intended?

 

[45669]

If anyone on here gets to know when the D78s will be taking over from the 165s, would they please be good enough to let us know. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that fancies trying them out.

The last time I was in that area and rode on that line the single unit 'Bubble Cars' were still in use.

 

[JonathanH]

If anyone on here gets to know when the D78s will be taking over from the 165s, would they please be good enough to let us know. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that fancies trying them out.

The last time I was in that area and rode on that line the single unit 'Bubble Cars' were still in use.

Reported as September elsewhere - it is only one unit.

 

[45669]

Thanks. No rush then.

 

[Chris125]

It's either using existing 3rd rail or solely battery power that suits these unit, the other set ups don't work.

Ridiculous hyperbole doesn't help your cause - did I imagine all those delays, faults and the apology from Adrian about the 484s? No one was saying the 3rd rail suited them when they were stuck at Eastleigh, but with time they've completely turned around and are now working well.

The same seems to be true of the LNW 230s too - IIRC figures for Period 9 appear to confirm a step-change in reliability despite very low mileage, better than the full length 345s.

We'll have to see about TfW's 230s but experience suggests that struggles in testing can be successfully overcome, and that the cynics who report those struggles rarely if ever acknowledge subsequent improvements. Only time will tell.

No, but it's still a relatively simple thing to do

The history of getting modern AC traction packages to play nicely with the 3rd rail would suggest otherwise.

 

[wobman]

Ridiculous hyperbole doesn't help your cause - did I imagine all those delays, faults and the apology from Adrian about the 484s? No one was saying the 3rd rail suited them when they were stuck at Eastleigh, but with time they've completely turned around and are now working well.

The same seems to be true of the LNW 230s too - IIRC figures for Period 9 appear to confirm a step-change in reliability despite very low mileage, better than the full length 345s.

We'll have to see about TfW's 230s but experience suggests that struggles in testing can be successfully overcome, and that the cynics who report those struggles rarely if ever acknowledge subsequent improvements. Only time will tell.



The history of getting modern AC traction packages to play nicely with the 3rd rail would suggest otherwise.

The tfw 230's are over 2 years late into service and counting, this is not an exaggeration as you seem to imply by using the statement ridiculous hyperbole.....

Please state were I have exaggerated as you have claimed ?

 

[Bald Rick]

The tfw 230's are over 2 years late into service and counting

the TfW 230s dont have exclusivity in that club *cough* Aventra *cough*

 

[JonathanH]

the TfW 230s dont have exclusivity in that club *cough* Aventra *cough*

...and GWR 769s which are three years late.