Bendy buses

[whoosh]

Box junctions were a difficulty I gather, particularly in London on roads where there were two or more lanes in each direction - drivers having to leave an 18 metre space for themselves on the other side of one in heavy traffic, simply got overtaken or undertaken by other road users who then moved into that space, with the result that they either couldn't progress, or that the rear blocked the junction (making the driver liable for a fine in the process).

This situation can occur with any large vehicle of course, but when it's an 18m vehicle instead of a typical 10-11m one it's obviously a bigger problem.

 

[Jordan Adam]

As mentioned above Aberdeen still operating Bendy buses and have done continuously since K1GRT arrived in late 1992. They've been on every route on the network at some point except the full length 19 and 20, Culter terminus on the 19 is a "T" shape and requires the bus to pull in to one side and reverse back, while the 20 goes through the narrow streets of Old Aberdeen.

I'd like to see Aberdeen get more of them in the future as when operated correctly they're far more efficient than deckers. They're much quicker when it comes to loading times at bus stops and there's significantly more step free seating. On most city routes you'll rarely ever see elderly passengers upstairs on a decker, even younger people are often hesitant to go upstairs if they're only making a 5-10 minute journey, in comparison those same people will happily sit anywhere on a bendy.

I'm not a driver however most drivers here say they're just as easy if not easier to drive than a comparable 12M single decker. Aberdeen doesn't have any special bus stop infrastructure for them either and manages fine.

 

[Arriva Fan]

As mentioned above Aberdeen still operating Bendy buses and have done continuously since K1GRT arrived in late 1992. They've been on every route on the network at some point except the full length 19 and 20, Culter terminus on the 19 is a "T" shape and requires the bus to pull in to one side and reverse back, while the 20 goes through the narrow streets of Old Aberdeen.

I'd like to see Aberdeen get more of them in the future as when operated correctly they're far more efficient than deckers. They're much quicker when it comes to loading times at bus stops and there's significantly more step free seating. On most city routes you'll rarely ever see elderly passengers upstairs on a decker, even younger people are often hesitant to go upstairs if they're only making a 5-10 minute journey, in comparison those same people will happily sit anywhere on a bendy.

I'm not a driver however most drivers here say they're just as easy if not easier to drive than a comparable 12M single decker. Aberdeen doesn't have any special bus stop infrastructure for them either and manages fine.

Perhaps First could order a large batch and split them between Aberdeen & Glasgow, for use on their 1/1A/1B?

 

[alex397]

I'd like to see Aberdeen get more of them in the future as when operated correctly they're far more efficient than deckers.

It would be great to see more. But with many of these remaining bendy-buses presumably needing replacing in the next few years, I wonder if any operators would be confident to order brand new ones. Especially in this post-Covid era!
I believe the only operator to have bought brand new ones in recent years are National Express for car park shuttles at Stansted. I can’t think of any other recent orders.

I know they arn’t popular amongst many enthusiasts though, and I’ve even made some actually angry when I’ve said this before! (not on here). Although it doesn’t take much for some enthusiasts to get incredibly angry over such trivial matters.

Another point I’d like to make - even though I’m in my late 20s, I’m finding stairs more difficult due to my disability. I can still climb and descend the stairs, but it can be quite stressful, and an added bit of anxiety. Im sure there are many passengers who feel the same. Whilst I love double deckers, and the top floor adds a lot of capacity, there are many passengers who would rather not, or cannot, go upstairs. This leaves the downstairs where there are relatively few seats and can get crowded easily.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Perhaps First could order a large batch and split them between Aberdeen & Glasgow, for use on their 1/1A/1B?

There has been talk about Aberdeen getting Hydrogen Artics once the Citaro/E500s come up for replacement but nothing really more than that as it's still quite a few years away, the Citaros/E500s are currently undergoing Euro 6 conversions so will likely be here until at least 2027. Likewise if Aberdeen Rapid Transit (ART) does happen the vehicles used would most likely be artics.

York and Bath could also probably be added to that hypothetical list but i find such a move more unlikely than likely unfortunately.

It would be great to see more. But with many of these remaining bendy-buses presumably needing replacing in the next few years, I wonder if any operators would be confident to order brand new ones. Especially in this post-Covid era!
I believe the only operator to have bought brand new ones in recent years are National Express for car park shuttles at Stansted. I can’t think of any other recent orders.

There was an artic boom in the late 90s/early 00s but they fell out of favour, probably in part because of the highly publicized issues in London along with the failure of First's FTR scheme. The lack of options don't really help either, for the past decade or so the only artic on the market has been the Citaro G. Wright are meant to be launching an Articulated version of the Kite with Battery-Electric and Hydrogen-Electric powertrains primarily for the EU market but as per the rigid variation it'll be easily adaptable for both RHD and LHD markets so can be sold to UK operators.

I know they arn’t popular amongst many enthusiasts though, and I’ve even made some actually angry when I’ve said this before! (not on here). Although it doesn’t take much for some enthusiasts to get incredibly angry over such trivial matters.

Another point I’d like to make - even though I’m in my late 20s, I’m finding stairs more difficult due to my disability. I can still climb and descend the stairs, but it can be quite stressful, and an added bit of anxiety. Im sure there are many passengers who feel the same. Whilst I love double deckers, and the top floor adds a lot of capacity, there are many passengers who would rather not, or cannot, go upstairs. This leaves the downstairs where there are relatively few seats and can get crowded easily.

Double deckers do make more sense for longer journeys, but in urban areas where passengers are only making shorter journeys Artics just seem a far more logical solution. Another point to make is about overall capacity, Artics can carry roughly 140-160 passengers in total depending on model, in comparison your typical double decker can carry about 90-100 at best.

The First Aberdeen Service 1/2 uses a mix of Citaros and Enviro500s and it's amazing how often you'll see Enviro500s with the lower deck carrying a fully seated load and standees while the upper deck is 2/3rds empty. In comparison when a Citaro comes along you'll see passengers spread throughout the entire bus, making full use of the space available.

There's lots of misconceptions about articulated buses particularly from the point of certain enthusiasts who've likely never been on one... The biggest myth seems to be that the roads in the UK are "not wide enough", when in reality a "standard" Artic doesn't really need any more space than a 12M single decker, the whole point of them being articulated in the first place is to offer greater maneuverability compared to a long rigid single decker.

Case in point here's a Volvo B7LA easily negotiating some poorly parked cars on a residential street with speedbumps...

 

[AB93]

There was an artic boom in the late 90s/early 00s but they fell out of favour, probably in part because of the highly publicized issues in London along with the failure of First's FTR scheme.

And no doubt higher running and maintenance costs, too!
Depot space can also be a challenge.

 

[73001]

Peoplesbus in Liverpool may be about to put their Mercedes bendy bus back on the road, specifically for use on the Soccerbus services for Liverpool and Everton matches.

 

[Man of Kent]

And no doubt higher running and maintenance costs, too!
Depot space can also be a challenge.

Indeed. Also, fuel consumption is around half that of a double decker, if the figures I have seen for operation in Germany are comparable to the UK.

 

[Volvodart]

Perhaps First could order a large batch and split them between Aberdeen & Glasgow, for use on their 1/1A/1B?

Glasgow would need electric ones and Aberdeen probably hydrogen. The RGU University in Aberdeen is promoting online courses now, so the numbers requiring transport may never return to the previous levels, meaning double deckers may be all that is needed in future.

 

[Mikey C]

Another point to make is about overall capacity, Artics can carry roughly 140-160 passengers in total depending on model, in comparison your typical double decker can carry about 90-100 at best.

But far fewer seats. That 140-160 includes vast number of standees, and how many British routes NEED a route with up to 100 people standing? Especially as to make such a route work you'd need open boarding from all doors, or else boarding times would be horrendous.

 

[mb88]

Does make me laugh when people say ‘the roads in the UK are too narrow for bendy buses’ which is utter nonsense. If a standard rigid bus can fit down a road, so can a bendy. There’s plenty of medieval era towns and cities in Europe, Germany in particular, where bendies operate with no issues at all.

 

[PG]

Does make me laugh when people say ‘the roads in the UK are too narrow for bendy buses’ which is utter nonsense. If a standard rigid bus can fit down a road, so can a bendy. There’s plenty of medieval era towns and cities in Europe, Germany in particular, where bendies operate with no issues at all.

I'd guess a lot of people who say that equate bendy buses with artic lorries. As has already been mentioned upthread the front section of a bendy is longer than the rear but shorter than a 12m rigid single decker, whereas an artic lorry has a trailer that is about four times the length of the tractor unit. Hence vastly different approaches to use of road space.

 

[Edsmith]

Does make me laugh when people say ‘the roads in the UK are too narrow for bendy buses’ which is utter nonsense. If a standard rigid bus can fit down a road, so can a bendy. There’s plenty of medieval era towns and cities in Europe, Germany in particular, where bendies operate with no issues at all.

And it does make me laugh when people make irrelevant comparisons like that. There are numerous arguments for and against them but the fact is they've just never been widely used in the UK is significant. There used to be four TfL bendy bus routes serving Victoria Station and if a few arrived at once then gridlock was often the result.

I was sitting in the front left hand seat on a 507 in London in the bendy era. It was carved up by a Mercedes sports car pulling away from a stop, but the driver got his own back on the roundabout at the south end of Lambeth Bridge, wrapping his bus neatly round the car in heavy traffic. I heard him mutter "He forgot that my Mercedes is bigger than his Mercedes".

Totally unprofessional and the sort of thing that will land the driver on a disciplinary.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed. Also, fuel consumption is around half that of a double decker, if the figures I have seen for operation in Germany are comparable to the UK.

Fuel consumption being half? Do you mean the mpg is half (i.e. fuel costs are double?)

 

[Edsmith]

I miss the bendy buses on Route 149, Edmonton Green to London Bridge. They were very smooth and comfortable, everyone could sit down downstairs and I'd meet some fascinating characters to talk to. It's not quite the same on the double deckers.

And I suspect a lot of people were glad to see the back of them, double deckers have far more seating, does anyone really want to stand from Edmonton Green to London Bridge?

Can you not talk to these fascinating characters on a double decker?

 

[mb88]

And it does make me laugh when people make irrelevant comparisons like that. There are numerous arguments for and against them but the fact is they've just never been widely used in the UK is significant. There used to be four TfL bendy bus routes serving Victoria Station and if a few arrived at once then gridlock was often the result..

Irrelevant comparisons. Ok then if you say so. Your replies on this thread smack of being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. You claim my comparison is irrelevant yet offer nothing to back this up apart from a vague notion of one specific location within one city. The layout of the bus station at Victoria was probably the reason for this. The fact that articulated buses in other countries operate without issue in towns and cities with ‘narrow roads’ is an entirely legitimate response to the often repeated argument that roads in the UK are too narrow.

 

[Edsmith]

Irrelevant comparisons. Ok then if you say so. Your replies on this thread smack of being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. You claim my comparison is irrelevant yet offer nothing to back this up apart from a vague notion of one specific location within one city. The layout of the bus station at Victoria was probably the reason for this. The fact that articulated buses in other countries operate without issue in towns and cities with ‘narrow roads’ is an entirely legitimate response to the often repeated argument that roads in the UK are too narrow.

So anyone disagreeing with you is being argumentative? All you're doing is banging on about what happens in "other countries". Does the fact that bendybuses are almost non existant in the UK not tell you something?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I do find it interesting that practically every other country on earth operates articulated buses without issue yet the UK (which isn't special or unique) has so many "issues" with them, that on it's own surely must say something?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I do find it interesting that practically every other country on earth operates articulated buses without issue yet the UK (which isn't special or unique) has so many "issues" with them, that on it's own surely must say something?

There are some genuine issues and some that just aren't, so....

European height limits (4m) have precluded the use of double deckers in locations so has promoted the use of bendis. The way in which we fund (or don't) buses means that operators have the cost risk for bendis whereas it isn't undertaken the same way elsewhere so having a vehicle returning 3 mpg rarely makes financial sense in the UK.

The physical maneuverability is a red herring as has been often debunked but certain politicians may have been less than truthful in that respect.

 

[Man of Kent]

Fuel consumption being half? Do you mean the mpg is half (i.e. fuel costs are double?)

Yes. Circa 3-4 mpg for a bendy (for suburban/semi-rural operation).

 

[Robertj21a]

I do find it interesting that practically every other country on earth operates articulated buses without issue yet the UK (which isn't special or unique) has so many "issues" with them, that on it's own surely must say something?

I was always told it was because many UK passengers are used to double deckers, where they can usually get a seat. Most bus travel abroad doesn't use double deckers, so it's quite normal for passengers to stand (like a London tube train).
This old red herring about not using bendies in narrow streets and tight corners is quite annoying when it's so blatantly untrue.

 

[Edsmith]

There are some genuine issues and some that just aren't, so....

European height limits (4m) have precluded the use of double deckers in locations so has promoted the use of bendis. The way in which we fund (or don't) buses means that operators have the cost risk for bendis whereas it isn't undertaken the same way elsewhere so having a vehicle returning 3 mpg rarely makes financial sense in the UK.

The physical maneuverability is a red herring as has been often debunked but certain politicians may have been less than truthful in that respect.

Physical manoeuvrability isn't a red herring, somebody mentioned previously about bendybuses on the 73 clipping kerbs and it wasn't only on that route, much rarer with standard buses.

 

[carlberry]

I do find it interesting that practically every other country on earth operates articulated buses without issue yet the UK (which isn't special or unique) has so many "issues" with them, that on it's own surely must say something?

Ultimately it comes down to three things:

Traffic flows
In the UK a bendi bus would need a large traffic flow to be justified which limits it's application a bit. Outside the UK different ticking arrangements and different approaches to unticketed use increase the justification.

Historic
The UK historically used a large number of double deckers (especially as every bus in the UK before 1980 was a Red Routemaster!) so people are used to them and bendis are 'foreign'. (Much the same was said about standee single deckers in the 1960s!).

Political
A politician saw a small level of disquiet about bendies and decided it would be in his interest to ramp this up via half truths and lies as part of his campaign. The loser out of this was the bendies rather than the politician.

 

[Robertj21a]

So, it appears the only places with bendy buses in service on public bus routes (that are not airport car park shuttles or airside), are Aberdeen, Brighton and York. Is this correct? Is there now nowhere else that has them?

EDIT: Not forgetting Northern Ireland, where they have the Glider buses in Belfast. Made to look like trams which is just pointless really.

Didn’t Connexions Buses use a bendy bus in public service recently - and do they still do so?

I’m also tempted to count Luton, as the shuttle between the Airport and Parkway Station is technically an ordinary bus service that anyone can use (ENTCS passes can be accepted, whereas that is not the case on car park shuttles).

Referring to Brighton, these Citaro bendies are about 15 years old now. They will surely be replaced in the next few years. I doubt Brighton & Hove will be buying brand new bendy buses. I thought maybe they were used due to height clearance issues at the university (the road goes under buildings in places) - but no, as double deckers do operate on the 25 in the late evenings, and double deck routes 5B and 23 serve the campuses as well.
It’s not as if the bendies on the 25 are used to quicken boarding times either - they only have two sets of doors and entry is only at the front, so no different to any other bus with passengers each having to scan their passes by the driver. I watched this evening in Brighton - a large crowd getting on the bendy, but all slowly through the front door.

The most efficient use of a bendy bus is to use all doors, or more than one door, for entry. But this is the UK where that’s considered unacceptable, but considered completely acceptable throughout most of the continent. Of course, many roads are just not built for them in the UK, but certainly not everywhere. There are quite a few bus routes in the UK where bendies would be really well suited like Brighton’s 25.

Hasn't Bath still got some?

 

[carlberry]

Hasn't Bath still got some?

Not since 2020.

 

[Simon75]

As pointed out ..design of most bus stations bays, are too small for bendies
Space (both road and depot (Arriva Edmonton had to be adapted in 2005 for them (from Wikipedia)

 

[Mikey C]

European height limits (4m) have precluded the use of double deckers in locations so has promoted the use of bendis. The way in which we fund (or don't) buses means that operators have the cost risk for bendis whereas it isn't undertaken the same way elsewhere so having a vehicle returning 3 mpg rarely makes financial sense in the UK.

Maybe the question should be asked to European countries why they have this arbitrary height limit...

A lot of European cities have double decker sightseeing buses which are very popular, maybe they should consider running double decker regular service buses, taking up less road space and providing more seats. They can always pop to Berlin to see them in action.

 

[cnjb8]

Maybe the question should be asked to European countries why they have this arbitrary height limit...

A lot of European cities have double decker sightseeing buses which are very popular, maybe they should consider running double decker regular service buses, taking up less road space and providing more seats. They can always pop to Berlin to see them in action.

Are bridge strikes as common of a problem in Europe as well as here?

 

[RJ]

Fuel consumption being half? Do you mean the mpg is half (i.e. fuel costs are double?)

That would seem right. Bendy buses weigh the same, if not more than double deckers unladen but can carry a lot more people. They also tend to have more powerful engines.

I'm not a driver however most drivers here say they're just as easy if not easier to drive than a comparable 12M single decker.

That's probably because they only sent to drive on routes where the roads are easy in nature and the bus stops have been suitably modified to accommodate them. It is true in part as the tractor follows the trailer and there's less in the way of wheelbase length and rear overhang, so as long as you're driving forwards on roads with enough space, they're ok.

I think it might be a different story if they were on routes where shunting and reversing is required. The kind of routes I cover involve a lot of that and I don't buy that artics would be as easy to drive as a 12 metre bus when the routes involve reversing in spaces that a 12m bus can barely fit.

I thought about buying one for my operation - then decided against it as they're far more limited in where they can go and have headaches thinking about having to back one out of a road that's blocked, which is quite common without any warning on rail replacement routes.

 

[Jordan Adam]

That's probably because they only sent to drive on routes where the roads are easy in nature and the bus stops have been suitably modified to accommodate them. It is true in part as the tractor follows the trailer and there's less in the way of wheelbase length and rear overhang, so as long as you're driving forwards on roads with enough space, they're ok.

I think it might be a different story if they were on routes where shunting and reversing is required. The kind of routes I cover involve a lot of that and I don't buy that artics would be as easy to drive as a 12 metre bus when the routes involve reversing in spaces that a 12m bus can barely fit.

Aberdeen does not have any special infrastructure at all for Artic operation and that they've been on every route on the network except the full length 19 (Culter Terminus is a "T" shape) and the 20.

Although the core section of the 1/2 (the main route they operate) is fairly straight forward there are some rather tight sections at either end with parked cars. The turning circle at Ashwood Terminus for example was only ever built as a temporary measure until the road that it's on was expected further (this never happened) as such it's much smaller and tighter than usual, Artics can manage it fine in one go however often with single deckers it has to be done in a three point turn.

No one was saying artics are easier to reverse? But most high frequency urban bus routes don't require the bus to reverse.