Class 175 future speculation

[Rich McLean]

The 175s are likely to end up at GWR, allocated to LA, and become a direct replacement for the Castle sets. However, it will take a few years to achieve that, with 197s replacing them, fitter training, crew training at several depots etc. Also they would only be able to be used on Cardiff - Penzance work and maybe on a few other lines. Cardiff-Portsmouth is out of the question, as they wouldn't meet the timings due to not being able to run to SP timings.

As for short platforms on that route, Lostwhitiel will take a 4 car, as will Ivybridge. However, Saltash, Keyham and Dockyard may present an issue.

 

[pemma]

I would've thought GWR would be a good bet as they could replace one of their fleet for the 175's, rather than say Northern who would just be adding another type.

According to Wiki Northern have 7 class 155s and 16 class 170s, while they have 2 x 3 car class 150s. There seems to be enough 175s to replace all those.

 

[Anonymous10]

According to Wiki Northern have 7 class 155s and 16 class 170s, while they have 2 x 3 car class 150s. There seems to be enough 175s to replace all those.

it has been discussed at length both here and other threads why the 175s will NOT be replacing the class 170s at Northern

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 175s are likely to end up at GWR, allocated to LA, and become a direct replacement for the Castle sets. However, it will take a few years to achieve that, with 197s replacing them, fitter training, crew training at several depots etc. Also they would only be able to be used on Cardiff - Penzance work and maybe on a few other lines. Cardiff-Portsmouth is out of the question, as they wouldn't meet the timings due to not being able to run to SP timings.

As for short platforms on that route, Lostwhitiel will take a 4 car, as will Ivybridge. However, Saltash, Keyham and Dockyard may present an issue.

Interesting. Would that allow for the reinstatement of the Bedwyn through service? I had read on here that that was being pulled so as to allow 80x to replace HSTs?

 

[wobman]

The 175s are likely to end up at GWR, allocated to LA, and become a direct replacement for the Castle sets. However, it will take a few years to achieve that, with 197s replacing them, fitter training, crew training at several depots etc. Also they would only be able to be used on Cardiff - Penzance work and maybe on a few other lines. Cardiff-Portsmouth is out of the question, as they wouldn't meet the timings due to not being able to run to SP timings.

As for short platforms on that route, Lostwhitiel will take a 4 car, as will Ivybridge. However, Saltash, Keyham and Dockyard may present an issue.

Where is the source for this information? Thanks

 

[JonathanH]

The 175s are likely to end up at GWR, allocated to LA, and become a direct replacement for the Castle sets.

Is that still just speculation or is something changing that makes it likely?

GWR really ought to manage to remove the HSTs with what it has although I guess it depends on whether 769s can be made to work on LTV services and passenger loadings in the west which people have indicated to be holding up.

 

[skyhigh]

According to Wiki Northern have 7 class 155s and 16 class 170s, while they have 2 x 3 car class 150s. There seems to be enough 175s to replace all those.

There are 6 3 car 150s, not 2. 175s are incompatible with both 15x and 195s - why would they want the headache of that when they don't need it?

 

[Wolfie]

There are 6 3 car 150s, not 2. 175s are incompatible with both 15x and 195s - why would they want the headache of that when they don't need it?

They may not want it. That wouldn't stop DfT directing it.

 

[Rich McLean]

Is that still just speculation or is something changing that makes it likely?

GWR really ought to manage to remove the HSTs with what it has although I guess it depends on whether 769s can be made to work on LTV services and passenger loadings in the west which people have indicated to be holding up.

From what I have heard, the option of the 175s are being explorered.

They could use the released 165s to release more 158s further west, but there will be short forms (and maybe a split to Cardiff - Penzance workings to Taunton and Exeter/Plymouth) to make it all work. Personally, I can't see the 3 car 165s moving from Reading for some time yet. As for splitting the services, the through trains are generaly busy through Exeter.

 

[pemma]

There are 6 3 car 150s, not 2. 175s are incompatible with both 15x and 195s - why would they want the headache of that when they don't need it?

Apart from 150+156 formations, Northern never seem to mix train types in the North West even if they can.

 

[Wolfie]

Apart from 150+156 formations, Northern never seem to mix train types in the North West even if they can.

Well, since they got rid of 153s at least....

 

[skyhigh]

Apart from 150+156 formations, Northern never seem to mix train types in the North West even if they can.

They might not in the North West- but come to Leeds on a morning and watch the rake of 150+158+170 coming off depot together, or 158+170 going off to various places. There are plenty of examples on a daily basis.

 

[craigybagel]

The 175s are likely to end up at GWR, allocated to LA, and become a direct replacement for the Castle sets. However, it will take a few years to achieve that, with 197s replacing them, fitter training, crew training at several depots etc. Also they would only be able to be used on Cardiff - Penzance work and maybe on a few other lines. Cardiff-Portsmouth is out of the question, as they wouldn't meet the timings due to not being able to run to SP timings.

As for short platforms on that route, Lostwhitiel will take a 4 car, as will Ivybridge. However, Saltash, Keyham and Dockyard may present an issue.

Surely if the need ever really presented itself, it wouldn't be too hard to change the SP sections to MU? That said, GWR have made it clear they don't want end door stock on Cardiff - Portsmouth anyway; hence Turbos.

 

[zwk500]

Surely if the need ever really presented itself, it wouldn't be too hard to change the SP sections to MU? That said, GWR have made it clear they don't want end door stock on Cardiff - Portsmouth anyway; hence Turbos.

I understand the axle weight comes into the difference between SP and MU, which may cost quite a lot to sort out.

 

[Rich McLean]

As CY has now stated, more likely for 175s to go to Northern to release 15x south.

 

[pemma]

it has been discussed at length both here and other threads why the 175s will NOT be replacing the class 170s at Northern

You sound very confident about an industry that always throws up surprises. Remember Intercity trains operating Hazel Grove to Blackpool under Northern or decrepit Northern 156s being loaned to TPE?

 

[Anonymous10]

You sound very confident about an industry that always throws up surprises. Remember Intercity trains operating Hazel Grove to Blackpool under Northern or decrepit Northern 156s being loaned to TPE?

yes im aware of both along with 37s returning to rhymney under tfw but as has been said with the investment into them and specially built depots ect in hull the chances are minescule

 

[irish_rail]

As CY has now stated, more likely for 175s to go to Northern to release 15x south.

That'd be about right, Northerners get fairly decent stock for the 20 minute commute to work, whilst in GWR land we will get a load more 150s for what are fairly long distance trains. Plenty of people now do trips like Plymouth to Cardiff now that the journey time is 3 and a half hours ( ie not much quicker changing at Bristol ).

 

[wobman]

That'd be about right, Northerners get fairly decent stock for the 20 minute commute to work, whilst in GWR land we will get a load more 150s for what are fairly long distance trains. Plenty of people now do trips like Plymouth to Cardiff now that the journey time is 3 and a half hours ( ie not much quicker changing at Bristol ).

Well have you seen the 150's and 153s tfw run all around the North, there's plenty of sprinters running around the North I can assure you of that. The 175 fleet is tfws newest running stock and there's not many of them unfortunately. So they cover limited routes were as tfw runs sprinters of various configuration everywhere except for mk4s if they run.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Could they be used for SWR to replace the 158s and some of the 159s?

 

[JonathanH]

Could they be used for SWR to replace the 158s and some of the 159s?

No. A mixed fleet of 158s, 159s and 175s at Salisbury doesn't make a scrap of sense.

The intention appears to be to concentrate them on a series of routes that would require the least number of drivers and guards to be trained on them and where there is a dedicated depot.

Threads on the wnxx forum appear to indicate that legacy drivers at GWR won't get trained on new traction so it is better to have more 158s in the west which those legacy drivers can operate.

There is also the issue of whether they will continue to be leased on the basis of being maintained by Alstom or the operating TOC.

It would appear that DfT is looking for somewhere to use them and is weighing up options taking into account all the costs of introducing a new fleet, not just the lease cost itself.
The interesting question is which bit of the Northern network needs 27 units that can operate relatively self contained diagrams with the smallest driver and guard rosters, and release 158s.

The North East with a base at Heaton looks possible but doesn't currently operate three car units and has the complication of providing units for the Cumbrian Coast.

Basing them at Crofton might be a possibility but would involve dead mileage.

Barrow / Windermere routes displacing 195s has been mentioned but the fleet seems too big and involves too many different traincrew depots.

The Laira / GWR option seemed interesting but the number of traincrew to receive training would appear too much along the Gloucester / Cardiff to Penzance axis.

 

[Nym]

No. A mixed fleet of 158s, 159s and 175s at Salisbury doesn't make a scrap of sense.

The intention appears to be to concentrate them on a series of routes that would require the least number of drivers and guards to be trained on them and where there is a dedicated depot.

Threads on the wnxx forum appear to indicate that legacy drivers at GWR won't get trained on new traction so it is better to have more 158s in the west which those legacy drivers can operate.

There is also the issue of whether they will continue to be leased on the basis of being maintained by Alstom or the operating TOC.

It would appear that DfT is looking for somewhere to use them and is weighing up options taking into account all the costs of introducing a new fleet, not just the lease cost itself. The interesting question is which bit of the Northern network needs 27 units that can operate relatively self contained diagrams with the smallest driver and guard rosters.

North East?

 

[JonathanH]

North East?

It does seem possible and Heaton has current experience with 180s.

 

[Neptune]

North East?

27 units for 40+ unit diagrams? Bear in mind Heaton provides units for S&C/Leeds - Morecambe, Hull - York/Scarborough - Sheffield and Cumbrian coast services too. Not just North East services.

On paper North East would seem sensible but there are far more to Heaton diagrams than services radiating from Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

 

[irish_rail]

No. A mixed fleet of 158s, 159s and 175s at Salisbury doesn't make a scrap of sense.

The intention appears to be to concentrate them on a series of routes that would require the least number of drivers and guards to be trained on them and where there is a dedicated depot.

Threads on the wnxx forum appear to indicate that legacy drivers at GWR won't get trained on new traction so it is better to have more 158s in the west which those legacy drivers can operate.

There is also the issue of whether they will continue to be leased on the basis of being maintained by Alstom or the operating TOC.

It would appear that DfT is looking for somewhere to use them and is weighing up options taking into account all the costs of introducing a new fleet, not just the lease cost itself.
The interesting question is which bit of the Northern network needs 27 units that can operate relatively self contained diagrams with the smallest driver and guard rosters, and release 158s.

The North East with a base at Heaton looks possible but doesn't currently operate three car units and has the complication of providing units for the Cumbrian Coast.

Basing them at Crofton might be a possibility but would involve dead mileage.

Barrow / Windermere routes displacing 195s has been mentioned but the fleet seems too big and involves too many different traincrew depots.

The Laira / GWR option seemed interesting but the number of traincrew to receive training would appear too much along the Gloucester / Cardiff to Penzance axis.

Just one point. You mention that legacy (HSS) drivers sign 158s on GWR. We don't. So Plymouth and Penzance HSS drivers wouldn't be able to drive the new 158s. Whereas at present we do sign the HSTs. That is why 150s from Northern (which HSS all do sign) not 158s is the only viable option at present, unless the GWR Exeter drivers who now do b and h work lose that in favour of covering more local work on the 158 fleet (probably a sensible suggestion too be fair).

 

[Anvil1984]

27 units for 40+ unit diagrams? Bear in mind Heaton provides units for S&C/Leeds - Morecambe, Hull - York/Scarborough - Sheffield and Cumbrian coast services too. Not just North East services.

On paper North East would seem sensible but there are far more to Heaton diagrams than services radiating from Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

Add in potentially the lost of Heaton based diagrams for the Hydrogen flex trains on Saltburn - Bishop Auckland (if it happens as its all gone quiet) and having to train Leeds / Neville Hill depot staff on them too as they'd need to visit Neville Hill if they get wheel flats (no wheel lathe at Heaton). Not as simple as it looks

 

[Rhydgaled]

GWR have made it clear they don't want end door stock on Cardiff - Portsmouth anyway;

Have they?

hence Turbos.

The Turbos being there doesn't necessarilly mean that GWR want suburban stock on there; it could equally be that they/DfT decided that Turbos were the best/only way to provide the capacity increase needed given the impossibility of obtaining additional 158s for GWR at the time the plan to introduce Turbos was devised.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Have they?


The Turbos being there doesn't necessarilly mean that GWR want suburban stock on there; it could equally be that they/DfT decided that Turbos were the best/only way to provide the capacity increase needed given the impossibility of obtaining additional 158s for GWR at the time the plan to introduce Turbos was devised.

Indeed, GWR already run a number of diagrams on Cardiff/Pompey with 158s and that increases in the forthcoming May timetable change.

 

[craigybagel]

Have they?


The Turbos being there doesn't necessarilly mean that GWR want suburban stock on there; it could equally be that they/DfT decided that Turbos were the best/only way to provide the capacity increase needed given the impossibility of obtaining additional 158s for GWR at the time the plan to introduce Turbos was devised.

Indeed, GWR already run a number of diagrams on Cardiff/Pompey with 158s and that increases in the forthcoming May timetable change.

I'm sure it was posted somewhere in these forums - and that the two remaining 158 diagrams on the route are used because they avoid passing through Bristol in the peaks? I could be wrong though, it's not a part of the world I know much about.

 

[Philip]

No. A mixed fleet of 158s, 159s and 175s at Salisbury doesn't make a scrap of sense.

The intention appears to be to concentrate them on a series of routes that would require the least number of drivers and guards to be trained on them and where there is a dedicated depot.

Threads on the wnxx forum appear to indicate that legacy drivers at GWR won't get trained on new traction so it is better to have more 158s in the west which those legacy drivers can operate.

There is also the issue of whether they will continue to be leased on the basis of being maintained by Alstom or the operating TOC.

It would appear that DfT is looking for somewhere to use them and is weighing up options taking into account all the costs of introducing a new fleet, not just the lease cost itself.
The interesting question is which bit of the Northern network needs 27 units that can operate relatively self contained diagrams with the smallest driver and guard rosters, and release 158s.

The North East with a base at Heaton looks possible but doesn't currently operate three car units and has the complication of providing units for the Cumbrian Coast.

Basing them at Crofton might be a possibility but would involve dead mileage.

Barrow / Windermere routes displacing 195s has been mentioned but the fleet seems too big and involves too many different traincrew depots.

The Laira / GWR option seemed interesting but the number of traincrew to receive training would appear too much along the Gloucester / Cardiff to Penzance axis.

What about Longsight, as that has the added benefit of being an Alstom depot?