Class 175 future speculation

[wobman]

Will they not just move them all to Longsight depot once 197s start arriving at Chester?

It's 1 x 197 in and 1 x 175 as per the original plan by tfw, but plans can change, tfw are struggling for unit storage as it is.

 

[Caaardiff]

It's 1 x 197 in and 1 x 175 as per the original plan by tfw, but plans can change, tfw are struggling for unit storage as it is.

The 175's are staying until early next year, so there will be an overlap of 197s and 175s with no 175's leaving as the 197s enter service.

There looks to be at least capacity on the outside sidings and perhaps Stockport sidings could be used for units not requiring maintenance or work. The problem is there won't be much capacity at Chester once 197s start arriving in bulk.

Also don't forget the 197's will be replacing 150's on Bidston/Blaenau and 153's on Liverpool/Crewe, as well as eventually 158's. All of those units in the sidings at Chester will become 197's so a for a while the initial stabling of a small pool of 197's shouldn't be an issue.
There will probably be more 175's outstabled away from Chester too.

 

[berneyarms]

It's 1 x 197 in and 1 x 175 as per the original plan by tfw, but plans can change, tfw are struggling for unit storage as it is.

As Craigy ponts out, there's plenty of storage space available at Crewe.

 

[Rhydgaled]

But they won’t be noisy or expensive once they’ve got electric locomotives for them.

Not much chance of 68s being replaced by electric locomotives at TPE I would have thought. Even when the current TransPennine Route Upgrade is complete the only fully-wired routes TPE will have will be the current WCML work (Liverpool/Manchester-Edinburgh/Glasgow), the Huddersfield stoppers (assuming those aren't transfered back to Northern to allow the use of 331s or similar) and the hourly Newcastle service. Hull, Scarborough and Redcar/Saltburn, as well as the Cleethorpes route, will all still require diesel - the sensible thing to do in my view would be to put the mark 5 sets on the Cleethorpes (since that will have the least under-wires running) and get more 397s for the Nottinghams which frees up the class 802 bi-modes for the other three routes to make the most of the OHLE provided in TRU.

Odd then, that they have gone out to tender for new electro-diesel locomotives for those sets. Not the action of a company wanting to get rid of them.

Electro-diesel is a very different kettle of fish to electric - the noise could remain a problem away from the electrified network.

Class 175s could join Northern to release their 170s to EMR for Nottingham - Liverpool services, plus Derby - Norwich if applicable.

Gosh, whatever you do, don’t wind up the Northern contingent by prising their beloved 170s away from them!

Other than a uniform fleet for EMR, is there any reason why 170s to EMR and 175s to Northern makes more sense than 170s to Northern and 175s to EMR? It's not like 170s have unit end gangways so running 175s in multiple is no more problematic than running 170s in multiple.

 

[wobman]

As Craigy ponts out, there's plenty of storage space available at Crewe.

There's 77 x 197s on order of which 56 will be based out of Chester, so some permanent storage solutions need to be looked at. Crewe gresty sidings aren't easy to get to from crewe Station, that's the main issue. Tfw will have an even bigger taxi bill !

With the 175s staying until March 2023 that adds to these problems, once they leave tfw permanently I was told longsight woukd be there temporary home until they get a permanent home.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 175's are staying until early next year, so there will be an overlap of 197s and 175s with no 175's leaving as the 197s enter service.

Given the stock shortage, this makes a lot of sense. Also the 197s will inevitably have some teething problems so a one in one out policy would actually result in fewer units available for traffic in the early months.

 

[Wolfie]

Given the stock shortage, this makes a lot of sense. Also the 197s will inevitably have some teething problems so a one in one out policy would actually result in fewer units available for traffic in the early months.

I'm inclined to agree particularly given that there is, as they don't currently have another TOC to go to, no pressure to release the 175s.

 

[Philip]

I'm inclined to agree particularly given that there is, as they don't currently have another TOC to go to, no pressure to release the 175s.

There have been rumours for a while that Northern, Chiltern and GWR are interested though, so by late this year or early next year there may be a need to start releasing units as soon as possible.

 

[Caaardiff]

There's 77 x 197s on order of which 56 will be based out of Chester, so some permanent storage solutions need to be looked at. Crewe gresty sidings aren't easy to get to from crewe Station, that's the main issue. Tfw will have an even bigger taxi bill !

With the 175s staying until March 2023 that adds to these problems, once they leave tfw permanently I was told longsight woukd be there temporary home until they get a permanent home.

56 will be maintained there but 56 won't be stabled there each night.
Probably half of those won't be near Chester and the rest will be split between the Depot and sidings as they are now. It will need expanding but not that much.

 

[Wolfie]

There have been rumours for a while that Northern, Chiltern and GWR are interested though, so by late this year or early next year there may be a need to start releasing units as soon as possible.

Oh, absolutely. In a climate where both finances and "green" issues mean that procurement of new DMUs is highly unlikely it seems a racing certainty that the 175s will easily find a new home.
I fear, if TfW deliveries go as well as those of many new fleets, that the 175s will become yet another delayed cascade in such circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, absolutely. In a climate where both finances and "green" issues mean that procurement of new DMUs is highly unlikely it seems a racing certainty that the 175s will easily find a new home.
I fear, if TfW deliveries go as well as those of many new fleets, that the 175s will become yet another delayed cascade in such circumstances.

The key difference is nobody is planning on having these units on a committed basis yet, so there's no need for TfW to rush.

 

[Wolfie]

The key difference is nobody is planning on having these units on a committed basis yet, so there's no need for TfW to rush.

I agree - see the post l was replying to, though.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm inclined to agree particularly given that there is, as they don't currently have another TOC to go to, no pressure to release the 175s.

The key difference is nobody is planning on having these units on a committed basis yet, so there's no need for TfW to rush.

Publicly. None of us know what discussions might be taking place behind the scenes.

 

[Wolfie]

Publicly. None of us know what discussions might be taking place behind the scenes.

Very true.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Couldn't these replace the 8 153's TfW are retaining? Surely that's a better situation.

There's 11 x 2-car and 16-3 car sets so it shouldn't be an issue really.

 

[craigybagel]

Couldn't these replace the 8 153's TfW are retaining? Surely that's a better situation.

There's 11 x 2-car and 16-3 car sets so it shouldn't be an issue really.

Two issues.

A - cost
B - as TfW only need 8 cars worth that's still going to leave most of the fleet spare - and as the leftovers will be an even smaller fleet then they are now it would make them even more of a microfleet at other TOCs and even less likely to find a future home.

 

[Rich McLean]

Couldn't these replace the 8 153's TfW are retaining? Surely that's a better situation.

There's 11 x 2-car and 16-3 car sets so it shouldn't be an issue really.

If they go anywhere, it will be as a complete fleet, and to a TOC where it will cost the least to get them into traffic, which is likely to be Northern, as many routes are already cleared, so only crew training required, which will release 158s to GWR to replace the Castle sets, where they already operate.

 

[Snow1964]

A new Chiltern Business Plan has been published by DfT

In section 39.4 it seems to refer to any class 175 that is part of the fleet (by a redacted date) rather seems to confirm DfT is expecting some 175s to move to Chiltern

39.4
Subject to the Secretary of State providing his approval and funding being made available, commencing from [REDACT , the Operator shall introduce a HyDrive fleet fitment programme in respect of all the Class 165 units comprised in the Train Fleet and, any Class 175 units which are part of the Train Fleet as at that date.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1081083/chiltern-railway-company-ltd-business-plan-commitments.pdf

 

[tomuk]

Argh if your going to hybrid the 175s fit the MTU solution not the tinpot 165 Hydrive system.

 

[43102EMR]

A new Chiltern Business Plan has been published by DfT

In section 39.4 it seems to refer to any class 175 that is part of the fleet (by a redacted date) rather seems to confirm DfT is expecting some 175s to move to Chiltern

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1081083/chiltern-railway-company-ltd-business-plan-commitments.pdf

Likely replacements for the silver sets if anything - there’s been a lot of rumours recently that they’ll be on their way out within the next year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A new Chiltern Business Plan has been published by DfT

In section 39.4 it seems to refer to any class 175 that is part of the fleet (by a redacted date) rather seems to confirm DfT is expecting some 175s to move to Chiltern

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1081083/chiltern-railway-company-ltd-business-plan-commitments.pdf

Very interesting indeed. Assuming it isn’t a typo for 168, it really does seem to suggest that the DfT will arrange for the 175 fleet to transfer to Chiltern Railways. They won’t be compatible with the Clubmen, but I suppose neither are the current locomotive hauled sets.

 

[Wolfie]

Very interesting indeed. Assuming it isn’t a typo for 168, it really does seem to suggest that the DfT will arrange for the 175 fleet to transfer to Chiltern Railways. They won’t be compatible with the Clubmen, but I suppose neither are the current locomotive hauled sets.

While l agree your comments two out of three digits wrong would be one heck of a typo.

I wonder if DfT are hoping to release some 168s (likely the former 170s which could be converted back)? I'm assuming that all of the 175s going to Chiltern would more than cover the Silver trains, possibly leaving some spare capacity?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Very interesting indeed. Assuming it isn’t a typo for 168, it really does seem to suggest that the DfT will arrange for the 175 fleet to transfer to Chiltern Railways. They won’t be compatible with the Clubmen, but I suppose neither are the current locomotive hauled sets.

Or, 'HyDrive' means that the units can be claimed to no longer be 'diesel-only' and, given the target of removing all diesel-only passenger trains by 2040 (which my MP quoted at me as recently as late March) perhaps the government is putting clauses like this into any TOC contracts wherever they can to try and ensure that the 175s have been hybridised by 2040 wherever they end up?

 

[Wolfie]

Or, 'HyDrive' means that the units can be claimed to no longer be 'diesel-only' and, given the target of removing all diesel-only passenger trains by 2040 (which my MP quoted at me as recently as late March) perhaps the government is putting clauses like this into any TOC contracts wherever they can to try and ensure that the 175s have been hybridised by 2040 wherever they end up?

That is distinctly possible.

 

[class397tpe]

Likely replacements for the silver sets if anything - there’s been a lot of rumours recently that they’ll be on their way out within the next year.

Just wondering since I'm out of the loop, what is it exactly that Chiltern hate about the loco-hauled sets? Is it cost, or noise from the 68s or something?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While l agree your comments two out of three digits wrong would be one heck of a typo.

I wonder if DfT are hoping to release some 168s (likely the former 170s which could be converted back)? I'm assuming that all of the 175s going to Chiltern would more than cover the Silver trains, possibly leaving some spare capacity?

The 168 services are usually 2, 3 or 4 carriage services, which are very busy at peaks on Birminghams.

I’d imagine the 175s would be used to run all Birmingham and Oxford services as either 4, 5 or 6 carriage 175, or 4, 5, 6 (and possibly 7 & 8) carriage 168 formations.

Just wondering since I'm out of the loop, what is it exactly that Chiltern hate about the loco-hauled sets? Is it cost, or noise from the 68s or something?

All that plus a very big hoo-ha over the emissions from the trains while stood at Marylebone, with Westminster City Council demanding immediate replacement of them.

Westminster City Council demand immediate end to Class 68 operation into Marylebone due to pollution

There are those on here who have questioned whether pressure will be brought on HMG to end the running of diesel trains into crowded cities. The London Evening Standard today disproves any such thoughts.... 'Heavily polluting diesel locomotives must be banned from Marylebone station to improve...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Wolfie]

Just wondering since I'm out of the loop, what is it exactly that Chiltern hate about the loco-hauled sets? Is it cost, or noise from the 68s or something?

There is big pressure on Chiltern over noise and emissions pollution from the locos.

 

[JonathanH]

I’d imagine the 175s would be used to run all Birmingham and Oxford services as either 4, 5 or 6 carriage 175, or 4, 5, 6 (and possibly 7 & 8) carriage 168 formations.

I think it is quite unlikely that Chiltern would look to increase formations if they don't have to. Running services with more than one unit seems unlikely given 3 and 4-car trains can be sufficient on many services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think it is quite unlikely that Chiltern would look to increase formations if they don't have to. Running services with more than one unit seems unlikely given 3 and 4-car trains can be sufficient on many services.

The Silver sets are longer so some coupled diagrams to replace those at least would be sensible. Also I’m sure you must agree that if the 175s did come over, certainly pairing all 168/0 and 175/0 diagrams at least would be the sensible option, particularly the latter which will run with increased dwell times on busy services.

 

[Wolfie]

I think it is quite unlikely that Chiltern would look to increase formations if they don't have to. Running services with more than one unit seems unlikely given 3 and 4-car trains can be sufficient on many services.

I certainly agree that any significant capacity increases are unlikely in the current climate.