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Timing of Engneering Works

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The Planner

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And I agree with this as well though I feel it should be noted that the FOCs tend to have more flexibility on their traction / route cards than sadly TOCs do and said TOCs could learn from this.

You would be surprised, the FOCs have been hit the same way and often come back saying they can't go a particular way they had in the past.


I agree with you that the FA are a pain, however I do wonder how much much slack the FA have got in the football caledendar to accommodate matches. Season 2021/22 seems almost certainly to have been affected by the late finish of 2019/20 season and consequential late start of 2020/21 season (September 2020) and a need to fit in the Euros, delayed from Summer 2020 to Summer 2021 and the need to finish this season (2021/22) such that the players get a break this summer and that next season 2022/23 starts on time in late July / early August due to the World Cup being in December 2022 rather than Summer 2022. It should be noted there were no replays for FA Cup nor the League Cup this season - all matches decided on the night but also the FA Cup 5th Round was held midweek rather than at the weekend, which in my view is not great for the going to the match type fans.

In terms of the railway one could argue its not been flexible enough using the rails left at its disposal to run services to get passengers to the game in question despite the actions of the FA. There are no 'Blockade busters' from Marylebone or Paddington via the Chilterns to Birmingham New Street on Voyagers with Pendolinos from New Street to Liverpool / Manchester. Secondly how about EMR perhaps running some trains from Liverpool / Manchester via the Hope Valley to St Pancras, they managed a train last week in connection with the Grand National.
Done to death on other threads, but the paying off of Wembley is the root of this, though I have heard anecdotal evidence internally that 2/3 of the tickets for the Man City Liverpool game are from the SE. Who is going to run the trains to Paddington or Marylebone, Chiltern etc are all still running a service and unless you are route conducting, no one signs it?
 
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You would be surprised, the FOCs have been hit the same way and often come back saying they can't go a particular way they had in the past.
Our old friend Covid?

Done to death on other threads, but the paying off of Wembley is the root of this, though I have heard anecdotal evidence internally that 2/3 of the tickets for the Man City Liverpool game are from the SE. Who is going to run the trains to Paddington or Marylebone, Chiltern etc are all still running a service and unless you are route conducting, no one signs it?
Well it would have to be Avanti with route conductors, assuming thats how it was before. GW did it with route conducting via the Chilterns (and presumably to Waterloo as well).
 

zwk500

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Well it would have to be Avanti with route conductors, assuming thats how it was before. GW did it with route conducting via the Chilterns (and presumably to Waterloo as well).
Where would these trains run? Euston is also closed, Marylebone doesn't have much spare capacity and Paddington will have it's own bank holiday traffic to move.
 

Class 170101

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Where would these trains run? Euston is also closed, Marylebone doesn't have much spare capacity and Paddington will have it's own bank holiday traffic to move.
Either station would still have space at weekends / Bank Holidays as they are set up for SX Peaks (as was)
 

6Gman

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Our old friend Covid?


Well it would have to be Avanti with route conductors, assuming thats how it was before. GW did it with route conducting via the Chilterns (and presumably to Waterloo as well).
I used to be heavily involved in moves requiring route conducting (charters, engineers, test trains, unusual stock moves) and you might be surprised at how difficult - and expensive - it can be to secure conductor drivers and other traincrew.
 

Horizon22

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I'm hearing reports that there will be record car journeys on the roads this easter.

I think there needs to be a review of when engineering work is undertaken on the railways.

This easter weekend would have the been the perfect opportunity to increase passenger numbers, instead we have loads of lines blocked with engineering work.

With many commuters who can now work from home if they need to, I think it would now be better to do engineering work midweek.

For those that can't work from home, they should operate express coaches to the nearest operating train service.
All well and good to review going forward but, as mentioned in many posts above, a) this work was planned 18-24 months ago, b) there’s no ideal plan to do a big block and on balance it is better to disrupt discretionary travel vs work travel.
 

Taunton

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And I agree with this as well though I feel it should be noted that the FOCs tend to have more flexibility on their traction / route cards than sadly TOCs do and said TOCs could learn from this.
By running just about everything with diesel, of course.
 

zwk500

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By running just about everything with diesel, of course.
And also by accepting rather inefficient use of stock and staff to keep said cards in date. Not to mention the monumental journey time extensions the freight trains get hit with for some of the diverts.
 

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Where would these trains run? Euston is also closed, Marylebone doesn't have much spare capacity and Paddington will have it's own bank holiday traffic to move.
Marylebone or Paddington. It's all been done before - but ultimately it comes down to economics. It's cheaper to palm people off with a replacement bus from Milton Keynes to Bedford or Stanmore.

Yes, it might save a few quid in opex, but the reputational damage it does to the railway cannot be underestimated. Lots of people have it in their mind that "the railway is always shut over Bank Holidays" and therefore won't even bother to look whether it might actually be open for their journey.

Hull Trains diverted into St Pancras during the Kings Cross closures. Virgin ran Blockade Busters into Marylebone. GWR diverted via Banbury into Marylebone or into Waterloo. None of those were done for fun - because of railway managers having a jolly. They were all sensible ideas and there is no fundamental reason that they couldn't be the norm.
 

Horizon22

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Marylebone or Paddington. It's all been done before - but ultimately it comes down to economics. It's cheaper to palm people off with a replacement bus from Milton Keynes to Bedford or Stanmore.

Yes, it might save a few quid in opex, but the reputational damage it does to the railway cannot be underestimated. Lots of people have it in their mind that "the railway is always shut over Bank Holidays" and therefore won't even bother to look whether it might actually be open for their journey.

Hull Trains diverted into St Pancras during the Kings Cross closures. Virgin ran Blockade Busters into Marylebone. GWR diverted via Banbury into Marylebone or into Waterloo. None of those were done for fun - because of railway managers having a jolly. They were all sensible ideas and there is no fundamental reason that they couldn't be the norm.

There won't be much more than a token service available at places like Marylebone and Paddington given capacity and track constraints, especially for a booked Saturday service. By thatt point, the service would be so overloaded it would be effectively pointless because overcrowding and inability to board would be rife.

Yes it can be done, but would need a hell of a lot more planning than just a few months with a lot of costs and constraints to consider. You may consider these "excuses" but they exist for a reason and whilst they may be able to be overcome, it's not a simple bit of work.
 

dk1

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I'm hearing reports that there will be record car journeys on the roads this easter.

I think there needs to be a review of when engineering work is undertaken on the railways.

This easter weekend would have the been the perfect opportunity to increase passenger numbers, instead we have loads of lines blocked with engineering work.

With many commuters who can now work from home if they need to, I think it would now be better to do engineering work midweek.

For those that can't work from home, they should operate express coaches to the nearest operating train service.
That may be a possibility but not for a couple of years at least. Many major engineering works are already planned already. The media & RAC keep going on about it being a record year on the roads but many I know are worried about the fuel availability & cost so will give it a miss. We’ll have to see whether it turns out to be as popular as they predict.

Back on the railways & todays almost half-hourly intercity services on the Norwich-Liverpool St route have been very busy indeed as have the branches. With next to no engineering work throughout Easter this year for a change, it’s looking a popular choice. EMR services where seen to be full & standing before departure too.
 

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Marylebone or Paddington. It's all been done before - but ultimately it comes down to economics. It's cheaper to palm people off with a replacement bus from Milton Keynes to Bedford or Stanmore.

Yes, it might save a few quid in opex, but the reputational damage it does to the railway cannot be underestimated. Lots of people have it in their mind that "the railway is always shut over Bank Holidays" and therefore won't even bother to look whether it might actually be open for their journey.
This I'd agree with and is something the railway needs to break.

Hull Trains diverted into St Pancras during the Kings Cross closures. Virgin ran Blockade Busters into Marylebone. GWR diverted via Banbury into Marylebone or into Waterloo. None of those were done for fun - because of railway managers having a jolly. They were all sensible ideas and there is no fundamental reason that they couldn't be the norm.
Hull Trains (and maybe Grand Central) seem to be the best at diverts and manage it well, perhaps its because of their small size but then gaining and keeping the knowledge must be a challenge if the diverts aren't used regularly. I'd be interested in how Hull Trains make it work operationally and retaining competency.
 

Class 170101

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Using route conductors is much more feasible when you only have a handful of services per day to plan.
Whilst what you say is sensible I'm not sure Hull Trains route conduct / have route conducted their trains over all the diversionary routes, like Goole or via the Joint Line.

East Coast of course have a wide route card for a passenger operator but they have an 'interesting' way of keeping it up to date (if thats the right word)
 

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It's really not that difficult to keep a route even if you don't ever use it for a service. It's more that it's just a matter of having the time, and therefore of money.
 

NoRoute

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?

I'm wondering if the rail network has become trapped in a circle of its own logic without realising it, its been scheduling major maintenance at Easter for so long that most passengers know the service is unreliable and inconvenient and so to avoid using rail, resulting in artificially low demand and so rail industry logic continues to schedule maintenance for the period. And so it continues, maintenance work resulting in poor service, resulting in low demand, justifying the scheduling of the maintenance work.

Be interesting to see what the demand would be like if the railways ran a full service for a few Easters, advertising the fact.
 

Falcon1200

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?

Demand for some rail travel, eg commuting and business, is lower because it is a holiday weekend, with many having both the Friday and Monday off, as well as their normal Saturday and Sunday. And the weather forecast drives demand as well, which in turn can be influenced by when Easter actually falls (very late this year ?). There simply is not time to carry out major work requiring multi-day closures without inconveniencing people, although from the messages being put out by the media (and public comments such as those on the BBC News website) one would think there was not a single train running anywhere in the UK this weekend, which of course is very far from the case.
 

zwk500

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?
Because at Easter people are taking the family away to visit relations/friends, often at their home and often for specific times. Or they're heading to Centre Parcs/Haven Caravan park type getaways where there isn't a station remotely nearby. The car is massively more flexible, more convenient, and can hold all the stuff you might need. The train on the other hand, even if running a normal service, would involve waiting around and interchanges and lugging the bags up and down stairs. And that's before you've got to the station of origin, and got from your final station to the actual destination.
 

Snow1964

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Because at Easter people are taking the family away to visit relations/friends, often at their home and often for specific times. Or they're heading to Centre Parcs/Haven Caravan park type getaways where there isn't a station remotely nearby. The car is massively more flexible, more convenient, and can hold all the stuff you might need. The train on the other hand, even if running a normal service, would involve waiting around and interchanges and lugging the bags up and down stairs. And that's before you've got to the station of origin, and got from your final station to the actual destination.

Basically ever since Operation Princess (where the cross country network lost network wide trains, even if one train per day) has it not really been possible to do most journeys without changing.

I remember when people without cars would take a train and relatives would pick them up from the one through train, nowadays not really possible to plan family breaks like that anymore, instead you are routed via the fastest route via London on mainlines that get closed
 

NoRoute

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The car is massively more flexible, more convenient, and can hold all the stuff you might need. The train on the other hand, even if running a normal service, would involve waiting around and interchanges and lugging the bags up and down stairs. And that's before you've got to the station of origin, and got from your final station to the actual destination.

That is one factor, but it also applies for the rest of the year and applies to many, possibly most leisure trips so wouldn't explain why Easter would be particularly low. You would also expect it to be off-set to some degree by the general increase in demand for leisure travel over the Easter weekend, it's simplistic to assume everyone is travelling with lots of luggage or going on holiday, many people will be making day trips or over-night stays with little luggage.

There simply is not time to carry out major work requiring multi-day closures without inconveniencing people, although from the messages being put out by the media (and public comments such as those on the BBC News website) one would think there was not a single train running anywhere in the UK this weekend, which of course is very far from the case.

If the railways schedule major maintenance over the Easter break, a high-profile time of major leisure travel, then it's reasonable for the media to report it, the subtleties and nuances of individual lines and services are inevitably going to be lost in national media.
 
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philosopher

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?

I'm wondering if the rail network has become trapped in a circle of its own logic without realising it, its been scheduling major maintenance at Easter for so long that most passengers know the service is unreliable and inconvenient and so to avoid using rail, resulting in artificially low demand and so rail industry logic continues to schedule maintenance for the period. And so it continues, maintenance work resulting in poor service, resulting in low demand, justifying the scheduling of the maintenance work.

Be interesting to see what the demand would be like if the railways ran a full service for a few Easters, advertising the fact.
I would have thought engineering work at Easter would be more disruptive than Christmas. At Christmas the travel period is spread out over two weeks (typically the 20th December to the 3rd January), whereas at Easter it is far shorter, perhaps only 4.5 days (Thursday afternoon to Easter Monday).

However at least on the lines I use, Easter seems to have more engineering works than the Christmas and New Year period. Take Euston station, it seems that it is almost tradition now that it is shut at Easter for the entire holiday period, last year was the only year I can remember it being open at Easter, whereas it over Christmas it seems mostly open. As a results over Christmas, trains I find are not too busy with some seats usually still being available. Over Easter however, a train being full and standing is almost guaranteed.

So in summary, I think more engineering work should be done over Christmas and less over Easter as at Christmas there is more opportunity for travellers to spread their journey compared to the much shorter Easter holiday.
 

NoRoute

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So in summary, I think more engineering work should be done over Christmas and less over Easter as at Christmas there is more opportunity for travellers to spread their journey compared to the much shorter Easter holiday.

I wonder about avoiding holiday periods altogether and picking a quiet week during the summer holidays. With normal working hours the costs should be a lot lower than premium holiday working, weather likely to be better so helping productivity etc.

What would really help though is if the rail network was engineered for greater availability and more redundancy, so bits could be taken out for maintenance while allowing a minimum service to continue by re-routing trains, that would provide more flexibility on when to do the work.
 

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Incorrect, all line block at Watford, all line block at Kings Langley for M25 viaduct works as well as other bits for East West and junction tamps. Its the first time in decades or longer that the FA decided to put them at Easter.
Euston might well have been closed this weekend for other reasons, but didn't the work at Watford (reinstating the northern fast/slow crossovers) fall out of a previous blockade for some reason?
ie it had been scheduled but NR failed to do the work in the possession as planned, creating the need for another blockade.
 

The Planner

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Euston might well have been closed this weekend for other reasons, but didn't the work at Watford (reinstating the northern fast/slow crossovers) fall out of a previous blockade for some reason?
ie it had been scheduled but NR failed to do the work in the possession as planned, creating the need for another blockade.
Harbury put paid to it, it has taken that long to decide whether we put it back in at all and find a time for it to be done. It isn't finished this weekend either.
I would have thought engineering work at Easter would be more disruptive than Christmas. At Christmas the travel period is spread out over two weeks (typically the 20th December to the 3rd January), whereas at Easter it is far shorter, perhaps only 4.5 days (Thursday afternoon to Easter Monday).

However at least on the lines I use, Easter seems to have more engineering works than the Christmas and New Year period. Take Euston station, it seems that it is almost tradition now that it is shut at Easter for the entire holiday period, last year was the only year I can remember it being open at Easter, whereas it over Christmas it seems mostly open. As a results over Christmas, trains I find are not too busy with some seats usually still being available. Over Easter however, a train being full and standing is almost guaranteed.

So in summary, I think more engineering work should be done over Christmas and less over Easter as at Christmas there is more opportunity for travellers to spread their journey compared to the much shorter Easter holiday.
You still have the period in between. XC have said often that 27th Dec is one of their busiest days and there is still some freight running as well. It isn't as though we don't do loads over Xmas Day and Boxing day as it is. You won't find the WCML massively curtailed over late May or August bank holidays.
 

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What would really help though is if the rail network was engineered for greater availability and more redundancy, so bits could be taken out for maintenance while allowing a minimum service to continue by re-routing trains, that would provide more flexibility on when to do the work.
That’s what I would prefer. But unfortunately the railways have boxed themselves in to an extent.

First, maintaining diversionary routes costs money. And the railways are always being hammered from all sides on costing taxpayers too much or the high price of tickets. And the wide mix of different stock and the different train companies sometimes makes running diversionary services more complex or impractical. Also diversionary routes generally are significantly slower, due to being a longer distance and or a lower overall line speed. There is often no money or incentive to improve these secondary routes.

Secondly, longer blocks are cheaper and more efficient overall than a series of weekend blocks. But generally speaking train companies and freight companies don’t like longer blocks. So typically, apart from large projects, most engineering work starts late on a Friday night/early hours of a Saturday morning, and continues to the early hours of the following Monday morning. But even this is not as good as it could be, because empty trains have to be able to return to their depots before the lines can close. And move to their start points to form the first services in the morning. This is made worse because some depots are now only just big enough, so you find trains queuing up when entering or exiting… All of these eats into the time that the lines can be closed.

Third, the way that Network Rail has decided to improve staff safety has and is having an impact. The ORR required Network Rail to reduce the risk of staff being hit by trains. Network Rail decided that only allowing staff to work trackside when there are no trains is the solution. But that means engineering and maintenance work (including routine or minor, but still important work) has to be done by closing the lines. If both lines of a double track railway are shut, you can’t use single line working. The staff obviously want better safety, but want better use of technology to protect them rather than having to work lots of nights and weekends which is when normally the lines are shut.

Fourth, the longer you defer work, the more expensive and more time consuming it gets. But to save the current budget, or due to a lack or resources, or lack or access, some work is deferred. But eventually said infrastructure will have to repaired or replaced. And this requires longer blocks.

Fifth, for big projects, the railways are limited by the availability of the contractors. And more importantly, the alignment of different contractors in the same project.
 
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al78

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?
Trains are far less convenient and more expensive than the private car when it comes to things like long distance journeys to visit relatives, or going for a walking holiday in one of the national parks, or doing a day trip to visit several different spaced out places. Hence people pile onto the roads on bank holidays because there is no practical substitute for their car for what they have planned. The inevitable engineering works merely supplements the bias.

This year it is expected to be worse due to a combination of pandemic fatigue, good weather, and major problems at airports due to staff shortages. Having travelled from Horsham to Shropshire to Salford by car yesterday, I can state that whilst I was occasionally held up by traffic congestion*, it was far from the worst I have experienced at Easter.

*Some of this is not entirely due to the volume of traffic, but due to the collective effect of poor driving, such as the inability to zip-merge at junctions where two primary routes meet, and when overtaking a lorry that is overtaking a lorry, driving in lane 3 2 mph faster than the lorries in lane 2 and 1, causing a traffic build up whilst the trundlebunny takes five miles to complete their overtake. This traffic buildup can get to the unstable point where a rapid lane change and over-reactive braking sets off a traffic wave which propagates against the traffic flow.

What would really help though is if the rail network was engineered for greater availability and more redundancy, so bits could be taken out for maintenance while allowing a minimum service to continue by re-routing trains, that would provide more flexibility on when to do the work.
It had that before Beeching shut down a chunk of it, so now there is often only one primary route, and when that is closed, the alternative is significantly longer. For example, it takes much longer to travel from London Kings Cross to Leeds then to Manchester than it does to go from London Euston to Manchester.
 

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Maybe not 18 months in advance, but 11 months for the major shutdowns would be a start, with minor closures shorter date.

It has been done before, when the 10day shutdown at Basingstoke was done, and Waterloo platform lengthening was done, the dates were advertised about year in advance, to allow people to plan their holiday dates to avoid it. So can be done.

If you don’t advertise it then people might arrange to travel on the date of disruption rather than go away day or two earlier.
Given how long in advance major engineering projects are decided, I agree that these should be announced a good time in advance, such as 11 months. Then people know where to avoid for which weekends, or could time long-distance holidays accordingly, rather than accidentally the "wrong" weekend.
 

The exile

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Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it is often hitting record levels
But is it? - or is it that the traffic distribution on the road network just shifts location?
 
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