Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Llandudno]

At least Grand National weekend is clear.

Crikey, now you have highlighted that, it will probably be added to the list…!

 

[dk1]

Crikey, now you have highlighted that, it will probably be added to the list…!

Doh!!! Me & my big fat fingers.

 

[317 forever]

• Sunday 13th March 2022
• Sunday 20th March 2022
• Sunday 27th March 2022
• Sunday 3rd April 2022
• Saturday 16th April 2022
• Sunday 17th April 2022
• Saturday 30th April 2022
• Sunday 1st May 2022
• Saturday 4th June 2022
• Sunday 5th June 2022

So strikes over Easter, May Day and Jubilee weekends (even if not the Bank Holidays themselves).

 

[LowLevel]

I believe the argument is basically as follows:

Commission was agreed a long time ago to reward guards for undertaking revenue duties which were previously not necessarily part of their pay grade, with the exception of conductor guards on pay trains.

Since then companies having been taking various actions that have had the impact of reducing the take home pay of their staff, whilst expecting them to remain as visible and motivated in their duties as before, without acknowledging that their pay may be reducing or offering any mitigation. That includes installation of vending machines and penalty fares rather than on board sales, and latterly the encouragement of the use of e-tickets.

E-tickets are open to misuse by the public and the data collected related to their use is also extremely valuable so to make up for ever reducing commission returns the conductors want to be paid to scan e-tickets in recognition of the value that activity provides for the train operator - they are still required to be in the train as much as ever but are paid less for doing so.


Now personally you can argue for and against it but if you happen to be in the job it's a fairly compelling argument - it has caused much resentment over the years that the train operators have actively taken actions that reduce the pay of their staff whilst still expecting them to undertake the same level of activity, just with scanning, reading and assessing the output of their machine rather than a roughly equivalent number of button taps to chuck some money in a bag and print off a ticket.

My own position is I'm not bothered about being paid to scan tickets - however I am not daft enough to declare that the argument for it doesn't have at least some legs from our side of the table.

 

[Falcon1200]

Commission was agreed a long time ago to reward guards for undertaking revenue duties which were previously not necessarily part of their pay grade, with the exception of conductor guards on pay trains.

Was it not perhaps also to encourage staff to examine tickets more frequently (or at all) by offering a financial incentive to do so ?

 

[Welshman]

I believe the argument is basically as follows:

Commission was agreed a long time ago to reward guards for undertaking revenue duties which were previously not necessarily part of their pay grade, with the exception of conductor guards on pay trains.

Since then companies having been taking various actions that have had the impact of reducing the take home pay of their staff, whilst expecting them to remain as visible and motivated in their duties as before, without acknowledging that their pay may be reducing or offering any mitigation. That includes installation of vending machines and penalty fares rather than on board sales, and latterly the encouragement of the use of e-tickets.

E-tickets are open to misuse by the public and the data collected related to their use is also extremely valuable so to make up for ever reducing commission returns the conductors want to be paid to scan e-tickets in recognition of the value that activity provides for the train operator - they are still required to be in the train as much as ever but are paid less for doing so.


Now personally you can argue for and against it but if you happen to be in the job it's a fairly compelling argument - it has caused much resentment over the years that the train operators have actively taken actions that reduce the pay of their staff whilst still expecting them to undertake the same level of activity, just with scanning, reading and assessing the output of their machine rather than a roughly equivalent number of button taps to chuck some money in a bag and print off a ticket.

My own position is I'm not bothered about being paid to scan tickets - however I am not daft enough to declare that the argument for it doesn't have at least some legs from our side of the table.

With respect, I don't see the point you are making.
Are you saying some conductors want to be paid for actually scanning tickets? Were they previously paid specifically for examining a ticket and punching /scribbling on it when that ticket was found to be in order?
I thought they were paid for collecting the excess due when an incorrect ticket was proffered?
So therefore rather than trying to speedily check date, route, class, etc of each ticket whilst moving quickly through a full train, a simple scan would throw up any irregularity very quickly, making it easier not to miss collecting any excess revenue due, and thus increasing the bonus due to the conductor?

 

[43066]

My own position is I'm not bothered about being paid to scan tickets - however I am not daft enough to declare that the argument for it doesn't have at least some legs from our side of the table.

I suppose there’s a question mark over whether this is the wisest battle to choose currently!

 

[Watershed]

With respect, I don't see the point you are making.
Are you saying some conductors want to be paid for actually scanning tickets? Were they previously paid specifically for examining a ticket and punching /scribbling on it when that ticket was found to be in order?
I thought they were paid for collecting the excess due when an incorrect ticket was proffered?
So therefore rather than trying to speedily check date, route, class, etc of each ticket whilst moving quickly through a full train, a simple scan would throw up any irregularity very quickly, making it easier not to miss collecting any excess revenue due, and thus increasing the bonus due to the conductor?

Even though in that sense e-tickets are better, a far higher percentage of people now have tickets than before ticket machines were as widespread and Penalty Fares were introduced. So even if it were now possible to check 100% of tickets between every stop, you're still not going to sell nearly as much.

Obviously the lack of a payrise, during a period of high inflation, certainly inflames all these tensions. Certainly considering the fact that, had the deal that was on the table in January 2020 been accepted, the basic salary would now be 33% higher. Unfortunately a deal that generous is unlikely to be on the table ever again. If I'd voted for the deal, I'd be pretty p****d off right now...

 

[skyhigh]

Even though in that sense e-tickets are better, a far higher percentage of people now have tickets than before ticket machines were as widespread and Penalty Fares were introduced. So even if it were now possible to check 100% of tickets between every stop, you're still not going to sell nearly as much.

Just to put some approximate figures on it, at out depot on a good early shift you could have easily taken £1000 in revenue. On the same shift immediately pre-Covid, you'd have been lucky to take £100 ‐ but with the same amount of passengers on board.

Personally I was never too fussed over revenue and would have scanned without any incentive, but from what I've seen having an incentive per scan does seem to make guards more visible.

 

[InOban]

It should of course be reflected in their T&Cs, but it should be recognised by everyone that revenue checking and other interactions with passengers are now the core purposes of guards/conductors / whatever they're called today. It's why the passengers want them. Their other safety critical duties are essential, but should occupy only a small part of their time. That's why they should be able to communicate with the driver from any part of the train, not just from specific locations.

 

[nedchester]

I suppose there’s a question mark over whether this is the wisest battle to choose currently!

Outside the railway bubble peoples jobs change over time as technology changes even mine.

Saying that tickets should always remain paper (as indicated in #764) shows a complete lack of understanding as to how technology is changing the railway.

Whether you or I like it or not there will be more automation in all sectors of the railway. More DOO as there's less need for the traditional guard, driverless trains and yes automatic train planning systems. It has always been the case from the 'Spinning Jenny' onwards but in more recent times look at the Print Workers who clung to their precious methods of working (or not working in some cases!). I'm not a fan of Murdoch and his approaches to industrial relations but he changed the print industry after a long strike at The Times but now all newspapers use the same technology he introduced. The parallels with the Railway are stark here and a railway that doesn't adapt to new methods will wither.

So yes people can try and cling onto old methods of working but the reality is that technology and public demand will drive change whether those working in the industry like it or not.

 

[ComUtoR]

Outside the railway bubble peoples jobs change over time as technology changes even mine.

Outside the Railway bubble....

Many jobs are still commission based, have sales incentives, as well as bonuses etc. Should all those jobs lose their commission because 'its their job to sell a car' ? Should all sales incentives be removed ?

If you want the "Railway Bubble" to be just like the RealWorld™ Then you must accept that working on commission should be allowed, supported, and fought for.

 

[43066]

Outside the railway bubble peoples jobs change over time as technology changes even mine.

Ah, that good old railway bubble again…

Saying that tickets should always remain paper (as indicated in #764) shows a complete lack of understanding as to how technology is changing the railway.

I can only assume you still haven’t read post #764 because this is a gross misrepresentation of what is actually said. The post points out that pay has dropped as a result of a change in working practices. *That* is the grievance here, not that people are asking for paper tickets to continue.

Whether you or I like it or not there will be more automation in all sectors of the railway. More DOO as there's less need for the traditional guard, driverless trains and yes automatic train planning systems. It has always been the case from the 'Spinning Jenny' onwards but in more recent times look at the Print Workers who clung to their precious methods of working (or not working in some cases!). I'm not a fan of Murdoch and his approaches to industrial relations but he changed the print industry after a long strike at The Times but now all newspapers use the same technology he introduced. The parallels with the Railway are stark here and a railway that doesn't adapt to new methods will wither.

Well yes, given a long enough timescale, almost all jobs will eventually be displaced by technology. I’m not sure what that has to do with the erosion of pay in this case? If you were made hundreds of pounds per month worse off by a change in working practices, would you just accept that? Perhaps you are well off enough to absorb that without complaint. Others are not so fortunate.

Do you think the railway unions should say to their members: “remember the miners and print workers, just accept whatever you’re asked to do by the company, even if it leaves you worse off”? From your posts I’m not convinced you really understand what a trade union is or what function it is supposed to perform.

 

[nedchester]

Do you think the railway unions should say to their members: “remember the miners and print workers, just accept whatever you’re asked to do by the company, even if it leaves you worse off”? From your posts I’m not convinced you really understand what a trade union is or what function it is supposed to perform.

I was a union rep in another industry prior to joining the railway. Always pragmatic in my negotiations and this is where the railway unions need to be now. Technology is evolving at a much faster rate than most of us could even have predicted, the railway can be too slow to adapt.......

Unrealistic demands and widespread strike action will play into the hands of a Government damaged by various issues looking for a good old Populist fight with the unions. It's all about "reading the room".

 

[43066]

I was a union rep in another industry prior to joining the railway. Always pragmatic in my negotiations and this is where the railway unions need to be now.

Much as I can agree with the need for pragmatism, I have to say from your strongly anti union postings on here that surprises me.

Unrealistic demands and widespread strike action will play into the hands of a Government damaged by various issues looking for a good old Populist fight with the unions. It's all about "reading the room".

I do agree with you here, as per my earlier comment over choosing battles. It’s disingenuous to suggest this dispute is due to people insisting on paper tickets continuing, though.

 

[nedchester]

I have to say from your strongly anti union postings on here that surprises me.



I do agree with you here, as per my earlier comment over choosing battles. It’s disingenuous to suggest this dispute is due to people insisting on paper tickets continuing, though.

I have never been anti-union but I fear that the rail unions are in danger of speeding up the decline of the railway when actually being pragmatic could see the expansion of the railway in the medium and long term.

I've long feared the current Government is up for a fight with the more militant unions, the current situation is going to give them that very excuse.

 

[Starmill]

My own position is I'm not bothered about being paid to scan tickets - however I am not daft enough to declare that the argument for it doesn't have at least some legs from our side of the table.

I would strongly agree with your latter point in that it is of great importance that staff feel valued if you are asking them to offer front line customer excellence. A rewarding package of benefits is obviously a requirement to get there. Whether this 2p or similar amount per scan is good approach to that or not is a different question.

 

[InOban]

A number of successful and respected companies have decided that a commision-based sales force is, in the long run, not a good way of doing business.

 

[43066]

I have never been anti-union

People reading your posts on here - which is all they have to go on - will form their own views on that.

A number of successful and respected companies have decided that a commision-based sales force is, in the long run, not a good way of doing business.

Sales people not earning commission? I doubt there are many examples of that anywhere. Certainly not based on the estate agents I’m currently dealing with.

Guards clearly aren’t strictly “sales people”, as selling tickets is only one part of the job, but if people are being made worse off due to a change in their working practices - especially at a time of record cost of living increases - can’t you understand their complaint?

 

[bengley]

With respect it's not up to the conductors personally is it? It's also not up to you, sorry.

It is the duty of the company to provide good customer service, because it is recognised that customer satisfaction is an important route to growing revenue. Electronic tickets are an important part of that customer satisfaction.


I would strongly agree with your latter point in that it is of great importance that staff feel valued if you are asking them to offer front line customer excellence. A rewarding package of benefits is obviously a requirement to get there. Whether this 2p or similar amount per scan is good approach to that or not is a different question.

Electronic tickets aren't good customer service. They're crap.

Nothing wrong with ToD or just buying at the ticket office.

 

[Horizon22]

With respect, I don't see the point you are making.
Are you saying some conductors want to be paid for actually scanning tickets? Were they previously paid specifically for examining a ticket and punching /scribbling on it when that ticket was found to be in order?
I thought they were paid for collecting the excess due when an incorrect ticket was proffered?
So therefore rather than trying to speedily check date, route, class, etc of each ticket whilst moving quickly through a full train, a simple scan would throw up any irregularity very quickly, making it easier not to miss collecting any excess revenue due, and thus increasing the bonus due to the conductor?

I think the point @LowLevel is making is that previously (good) on-board staff used to make commission by being proactive on their journeys and no doubt finding ticketless travellers as there were fewer gatelines / TVMs / pay-before-you-board schemes. Now some of that income flow has been lost through no fault of their own. Some will happily continue to do this activity regardless, but you can appreciate there's at least some argument that on-board staff might be a little miffed by something that the TOC / DfT has arranged to improve revenue protection away from the train. It's not really anyone's fault but it is an unintended consequence of ticket buying becoming easier and moves to ensure most purchasing is now done away from the train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Many jobs are still commission based, have sales incentives, as well as bonuses etc. Should all those jobs lose their commission because 'its their job to sell a car' ? Should all sales incentives be removed ?

This is true, however things change! There used to be an awful lot of insurance salesmen out there, all earning commission. Technology changed, and it’s almost entirely moved on line, and the insurance salesmen found there jobs changed (or disappeared). The same is true in many, many other industries.

 

[185]

Push aside the pro & anti-union tripe in these 27 pages, this boils down to:-

- A pay rise of about £2.40-£3.00 per guard per day, assuming they check tickets.

- 2p a scan could encourage guards to check more, and push the lazier ones out to check all tickets, as happened at Northern.

- The company's finance director suggests she should not pay it as that farebox money is going to the DfT not FG.

- The DfT pays the company it's contractual 'wage' part funded from those fares.

So, pragmatically, 2p a scan is beneficial to the DfT as it is self funding, but TPE don't see that revenue, so aren't bothered.

But that is not my argument here.... If we're heading for a summer of mass strikes and a £3ish-per-day rise (cost of 1x Small Macchiato, Starbucks) was refused, leading to a few, single day strikes, then Lord only knows what will happen when staff ask for a pay rise which matches the rising cost of living of say 9-10%.

 

[Starmill]

It's pretty darn obvious that government policy is for railway industry staff to fund some of the losses caused by the pandemic personally by accepting a real pay reduction over a number of years, yes. I don't think anyone can realistically dispute that, although it's of course a little different outside of the fourteen DfT controlled operators e.g. Hull Trains went down the redundancy route instead, the Scottish Government has cut services and staffing levels more deeply in order to afford pay rises.

cost of 1x Small Macchiato, Starbucks

I don't think personally I would ever be in favour of strike action over something which is being compared to the cost of a small cup of coffee per day of work, but I respect the fact that this right is available in law and this is as it should be.

 

[Bishopstone]

I believe the argument is basically as follows:

I think this is a well-composed post, and I get the argument about lost commission eroding incomes.

But couldn’t it be said that the Train Manager/Conductor role has become easier over the years as the volume of cash handling has reduced significantly? Working in a different sector that handles cash, I’m familiar with the hassle caused by the takings being over/under when they come to be banked; customers claiming they were short-changed (rightly or wrongly); the need to count and sort the ’till’ at least once a day, and the damaged pockets through carrying loads of ‘shrapnel’ around.

I know the EFTPOS equipment isn’t always reliable in mobile applications but, even so, does anyone truly look back on the days when every punter paid with coins as a kind of nirvana?

 

[MDB1images]

Think some talks are planned between TPE and the RMT in the coming weeks(I've forgot the exact date!).

 

[AlterEgo]

A number of successful and respected companies have decided that a commision-based sales force is, in the long run, not a good way of doing business.

But that's not what is happening here. @LowLevel makes - as usual - a reasoned post which lays out the rationale. To be honest I can see the unions' point here; imagine you got a flat salary but also got commission on sales/checking quality (all part of your core job description btw!), and all of a sudden the company decides you will receive less, or no commission for the same work. You might want the company to match the loss with a top-up of the flat salary to ensure you aren't being paid less for the same work, no? That does not seem egregiously unfair to me.

 

[whoosh]

Don't know why the company doesn't just pay the 2p.

Commission on ticket sales is a percentage. This is just 2p. Over the years inflation will erode it as it is a fixed amount.

The 2p has lost value even in the last few months. Ticket commission percentage won't have.

 

[Watershed]

Don't know why the company doesn't just pay the 2p

Because it's not really down to the company to agree to that. The DfT needs to sign off and they won't do so until the whole issue is resolved. That, in turn, depends on what happens across the wider industry - finally the DfT have realised that you can't award one TOC a massive payrise without it causing people at other TOCs to move over.

So in essence the current strike will likely rumble on for a long time.

Commission on ticket sales is a percentage. This is just 2p. Over the years inflation will erode it as it is a fixed amount.

The 2p has lost value even in the last few months. Ticket commission percentage won't have.

If 2p per scan were agreed, do you really think the RMT wouldn't come back wanting it to increase in future?

 

[43066]

But that's not what is happening here. @LowLevel makes - as usual - a reasoned post which lays out the rationale. To be honest I can see the unions' point here; imagine you got a flat salary but also got commission on sales/checking quality (all part of your core job description btw!), and all of a sudden the company decides you will receive less, or no commission for the same work. You might want the company to match the loss with a top-up of the flat salary to ensure you aren't being paid less for the same work, no? That does not seem egregiously unfair to me.

Precisely. The false comparisons from the usual suspects who will always oppose everything the railway unions do or say, whatever the circumstances, are intended to obscure that issue.

If 2p per scan were agreed, do you really think the RMT wouldn't come back wanting it to increase in future?

The logical extension of that argument is no pay rises for anybody on the railway, ever! I’m sure that would please some on here…