Covid restrictions abroad: updates & observations

[Cloud Strife]

Some people will always be off sync with reality.

Reality is that we're at the point now where we can make our own decisions and choices. The idea of someone going around rabidly trying to remove any and all information about masks, social distancing, etc is just... amusing.

I still wear a mask in some specific places, due to the inability of people to keep even a minimal amount of distance. I don't need you to tell me what I should and shouldn't do, and I'm quite happy to comply with the law/regulations on wearing one.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Reality is that we're at the point now where we can make our own decisions and choices. The idea of someone going around rabidly trying to remove any and all information about masks, social distancing, etc is just... amusing.

I still wear a mask in some specific places, due to the inability of people to keep even a minimal amount of distance. I don't need you to tell me what I should and shouldn't do, and I'm quite happy to comply with the law/regulations on wearing one.

I wasn’t suggesting we told you what to do though was I? I was suggesting removing all the abnormal messaging. Objecting to that is wrong.

Even your covid masters say there is “distance” require anymore, do you on,y believe them when they make things up not take them away?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wasn’t suggesting we told you what to do though was I? I was suggesting removing all the abnormal messaging. Objecting to that is wrong.

Why does it need to be removed? I don't even notice it these days. Probably it should go from places where more important information could be conveyed, but a sign or a sticker doesn't bother anyone.

Even your covid masters say there is “distance” require anymore, do you on,y believe them when they make things up not take them away?

I keep distance from people on principle, and have done so for many years. Social distancing is for me, like many people from Northern Europe, a totally normal thing.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why does it need to be removed? I don't even notice it these days. Probably it should go from places where more important information could be conveyed, but a sign or a sticker doesn't bother anyone.



I keep distance from people on principle, and have done so for many years. Social distancing is for me, like many people from Northern Europe, a totally normal thing.

There we go, you were already out of step with normal hence why you are happy to push it. The odd chap in the corner has been identified.

 

[Cloud Strife]

There we go, you were already out of step with normal hence why you are happy to push it. The odd chap in the corner has been identified.

What's abnormal about keeping distance from people? It's quite normal in Northern Europe, and it always struck me in (Southern) England that people really didn't appreciate personal space as much as they do in Scotland and the Nordic countries.

 

[VauxhallandI]

What's abnormal about keeping distance from people? It's quite normal in Northern Europe, and it always struck me in (Southern) England that people really didn't appreciate personal space as much as they do in Scotland and the Nordic countries.

Your talking a different language to me, I’ve never experienced anything of this

I’m done with you.

 

[AlterEgo]

What's abnormal about keeping distance from people? It's quite normal in Northern Europe, and it always struck me in (Southern) England that people really didn't appreciate personal space as much as they do in Scotland and the Nordic countries.

Indeed it is generally true that the further south in Europe you go, the smaller your personal space bubble becomes. The UK is about middling when it comes to personal space.

I was just about to make the same point. Why is covid still considered riskier in some countries and not others...??

Singapore is a good example of a naturally covid-cringe country. It's an authoritarian Asian city-state with extremely large neighbours which present a borderline existential threat. It's a cultural thing with Singapore, which has seen massive prosperity on the back of hardline rule, emphasis on manners, courtesy, good citizenship and hygiene, in contrast to its less well developed neighbours.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Your talking a different language to me, I’ve never experienced anything of this

Have you actually ever left Little England?

Indeed it is generally true that the further south in Europe you go, the smaller your personal space bubble becomes. The UK is about middling when it comes to personal space.

Yup, I always found London unbearable for the lack of personal space. Italy, Spain, Greece are absolute hell for me, while Estonia and Finland are blissful.

Hungary is the odd one out, where they really value personal space despite being more southern than northern.

 

[Richard Scott]

Hungary is the odd one out, where they really value personal space despite being more southern than northern.

Not done the Budapest Metro then?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Have you actually ever left Little England?



Yup, I always found London unbearable for the lack of personal space. Italy, Spain, Greece are absolute hell for me, while Estonia and Finland are blissful.

Hungary is the odd one out, where they really value personal space despite being more southern than northern.

Mmmmmm Scottish, 36 countries visited.

 

[Planesandtrain]

Many federal states in Germany have stated that they intend on keeping masks on public transport throughout the Summer as otherwise 'it sends the wrong signal' and 'masks are useful in settings where lots of people come together.' Central Government also wants to introduce legislation to allow greater powers like being able to reimplement vaccine passports and increased mask-wearing from October. There are also renewed attempts to introduce mandatory vaccination for those over. 60's.

Now back to reality on the trains I crew from Munich-Lindau whilst compliance is still high it is getting increasingly difficult getting people to wear them on late night trains after, of course, they have spent the evening maskless with the same group of people getting as drunk as possible. It is very much: I walk past and masks come on before promptly being removed again.

 

[nw1]

Indeed it is generally true that the further south in Europe you go, the smaller your personal space bubble becomes. The UK is about middling when it comes to personal space.

Singapore is a good example of a naturally covid-cringe country. It's an authoritarian Asian city-state with extremely large neighbours which present a borderline existential threat. It's a cultural thing with Singapore, which has seen massive prosperity on the back of hardline rule, emphasis on manners, courtesy, good citizenship and hygiene, in contrast to its less well developed neighbours.

First I heard of Singapore was the law that chewing gum (chewing the gum, not spitting it out or leaving it on a seat) was illegal on the metro. Heard other stories since about oppressive authoritarianism and unpleasant punishments.

Basically it strikes me as somewhere which I would give an extremely wide berth unless I had to visit for work reasons.

 

[Butts]

Many federal states in Germany have stated that they intend on keeping masks on public transport throughout the Summer as otherwise 'it sends the wrong signal' and 'masks are useful in settings where lots of people come together.' Central Government also wants to introduce legislation to allow greater powers like being able to reimplement vaccine passports and increased mask-wearing from October. There are also renewed attempts to introduce mandatory vaccination for those over. 60's.

Now back to reality on the trains I crew from Munich-Lindau whilst compliance is still high it is getting increasingly difficult getting people to wear them on late night trains after, of course, they have spent the evening maskless with the same group of people getting as drunk as possible. It is very much: I walk past and masks come on before promptly being removed again.

It seems it's crazy they are enforcing masks on Trains but not Planes I was in Nuremberg a few weeks ago and virtually no one at the airport including staff were wearing one.

No mask required on BA Flights to and from Germany either.

 

[AlterEgo]

First I heard of Singapore was the law that chewing gum (chewing the gum, not spitting it out or leaving it on a seat) was illegal on the metro. Heard other stories since about oppressive authoritarianism and unpleasant punishments.

Basically it strikes me as somewhere which I would give an extremely wide berth unless I had to visit for work reasons.

Singapore is great and one of the world’s miracles. They were and are wrong about masks (I was there last week, it’s very masky still), of course.

You’re wrong about the gum issue though.

 

[island]

First I heard of Singapore was the law that chewing gum (chewing the gum, not spitting it out or leaving it on a seat) was illegal on the metro.

You’re wrong about the gum issue though.

Well, it's legal to chew it if you manage to have some, but it's illegal to import it into Singapore or to buy it other than for medical reasons (such as nicotine gum). So most people don't.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Mmmmmm Scottish, 36 countries visited.

And you haven't figured out that the concept of personal distance differs from country to country yet?

Central Government also wants to introduce legislation to allow greater powers like being able to reimplement vaccine passports and increased mask-wearing from October.

Makes sense. Better to be prepared now than to rush through legislation when you've already got huge numbers of infections and hospitalisations.

 

[nw1]

Makes sense. Better to be prepared now than to rush through legislation when you've already got huge numbers of infections and hospitalisations.

But will Covid next winter actually be a big problem in somewhere like Germany, given that Omicron wasn't so severe in the UK (a country with fairly similar population density and climate to Germany, so presumably comparable) this past winter?

 

[greyman42]

And you haven't figured out that the concept of personal distance differs from country to country yet?



Makes sense. Better to be prepared now than to rush through legislation when you've already got huge numbers of infections and hospitalisations.

Huge numbers of infections and hospitalisations caused by what?

 

[Dent]

And you haven't figured out that the concept of personal distance differs from country to country yet?



Makes sense. Better to be prepared now than to rush through legislation when you've already got huge numbers of infections and hospitalisations.

If it still "makes sense" even after October, long after everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, then what exactly are they waiting for before it no longer "makes sense" to violate civil liberties in this way?

Other than the vaccination (which has already been given to everyone who wants it), the new treatments for the few who actually become seriously ill (which have already been developed), and more mild variants naturally becoming dominant (which has already happened), what else is there to wait for before ending all these restrictions?

 

[Howardh]

I'm in Jersey and there are a lot of bars and cafes which ask you to wait to be allocated a table. Some may be simply to assist table service, but a feeling that some are still stuck in the covid time warp.

The hotel runs a shuttle bus, and it's just restarted after covid or maybe the holiday season has started, and the notice on the timetable clearly states masks MUST be worn.

Glad to announce that the order has been summarily ignored!

 

[Cloud Strife]

If it still "makes sense" even after October, long after everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, then what exactly are they waiting for before it no longer "makes sense" to violate civil liberties in this way?

What violation of civil liberties?

Other than the vaccination (which has already been given to everyone who wants it), the new treatments for the few who actually become seriously ill (which have already been developed), and more mild variants naturally becoming dominant (which has already happened), what else is there to wait for before ending all these restrictions?

We don't know how it will go from here. That's why I see no harm in being prepared for the worst while hoping for the best. I'm sick and tired of the restrictions, but if (god forbid...) we see a massive upswing in deaths, at least the legislation will be ready and waiting.

But will Covid next winter actually be a big problem in somewhere like Germany, given that Omicron wasn't so severe in the UK (a country with fairly similar population density and climate to Germany, so presumably comparable) this past winter?

This is the huge question. I don't know the answer, but I like the fact that Germany is ready and waiting if needs be.

 

[Dent]

We don't know how it will go from here. That's why I see no harm in being prepared for the worst while hoping for the best. I'm sick and tired of the restrictions, but if (god forbid...) we see a massive upswing in deaths, at least the legislation will be ready and waiting

If they do introduce even more restriction in October 2022 then what would be the objective, and the criteria for finally endings those restrictions? All the sensible criteria I can think of (vaccines, improved treatments, mild dominant varient) have already been met.

No one who still thinks restrictions are necessary even after all those things had managed to explain what else they are waiting for, suggesting that they haven't actually thought their position through.

 

[Cloud Strife]

If they do introduce even more restriction in October 2022 then what would be the objective, and the criteria for finally endings those restrictions? All the sensible criteria I can think of (vaccines, improved treatments, mild dominant varient) have already been met.

No one who still thinks restrictions are necessary even after all those things had managed to explain what else they are waiting for, suggesting that they haven't actually thought their position through.

Objectively, you should have a set of parameters which would trigger the restrictions, and the same parameters should be used to end restrictions. We have vaccines and improved treatment, but we don't know what will happen next with Omicron.

Restrictions as of today are largely pointless, but we really don't know what will happen next. Let us agree objective criteria, and stick to those criteria. Personally, I like hospitalisation as a good measurement: if we have 10m infections and only 1000 hospitalisations, it makes no sense to impose restrictions.

 

[Dent]

Restrictions as of today are largely pointless, but we really don't know what will happen next. Let us agree objective criteria, and stick to those criteria. Personally, I like hospitalisation as a good measurement: if we have 10m infections and only 1000 hospitalisations, it makes no sense to impose restrictions.

If these restriction do anything to case numbers then all they will do is disrupt the endemic equilibrium and cause cases to rise again when the restriction end. If you then impose restrictions again every time cases rise then you just end up stuck in an infinite loop.

Why is creating this infinite loop beneficial, and how and when do you then end that loop?

 

[Cloud Strife]

If you then impose restrictions again every time cases rise then you just end up stuck in an infinite loop.

This is why I think hospitalisations are a better measure. Cases by themselves don't tell us very much, especially as we saw with Omicron. If we know that our hospitals are being swamped and unable to cope, restrictions are a good idea to avoid hospitals collapsing.

But in a situation where you have many cases and very few hospitalisations? Restrictions are completely pointless.

 

[Eyersey468]

This is why I think hospitalisations are a better measure. Cases by themselves don't tell us very much, especially as we saw with Omicron. If we know that our hospitals are being swamped and unable to cope, restrictions are a good idea to avoid hospitals collapsing.

But in a situation where you have many cases and very few hospitalisations? Restrictions are completely pointless.

I agree hospitalisations are a better measure than cases

 

[nw1]

This is why I think hospitalisations are a better measure. Cases by themselves don't tell us very much, especially as we saw with Omicron. If we know that our hospitals are being swamped and unable to cope, restrictions are a good idea to avoid hospitals collapsing.

But in a situation where you have many cases and very few hospitalisations? Restrictions are completely pointless.

But if Covid is going to potentially cause large numbers of hospitalisations long term, then surely the better fix is to improve the hospital system so they can cope, including building new hospitals if necessary.

Granted this would cost a large amount of money, but as we have seen, restrictions, notably lockdowns, have caused severe economic damage so the economy is going to end up losing money either way. If dangerous Covid is indeed going to be a long term problem (which personally I think is very unlikely, but if we make that assumption) I would argue we need to build the hospital infrastructure to deal with it rather than live in a world long-term where possibly harsh restrictions could come in at a moment's notice (while Germany is not talking of lockdown, given the Netherlands' reaction this past winter, this does remain a theoretical risk).

 

[Cloud Strife]

But if Covid is going to potentially cause large numbers of hospitalisations long term, then surely the better fix is to improve the hospital system so they can cope, including building new hospitals if necessary.

The general problem here is that it's like roads: you can't build your way out of a traffic jam, the only way to deal with it is to reduce demand for the roads. It's also tremendously expensive to build and maintain hospitals, and you also have to find trained people to work there.

Granted this would cost a large amount of money, but as we have seen, restrictions, notably lockdowns, have caused severe economic damage so the economy is going to end up losing money either way. If dangerous Covid is indeed going to be a long term problem (which personally I think is very unlikely, but if we make that assumption) I would argue we need to build the hospital infrastructure to deal with it rather than live in a world where possibly harsh restrictions could come in at a moment's notice (while Germany is not talking of lockdown, given the Netherlands' reaction this past winter, this does remain a theoretical risk).

It's an interesting idea, and it would certainly improve the quality of life of many people if there were far more resources spent on health care. The Covid-related resources could be used to improve healthcare in general during 8-9 months of the year, too. It's hard to argue with this, to be honest.

I also don't think it will be a long term problem. One issue is that it looks like the potential of mRNA vaccines are being wasted in lengthy approval processes, whereas it should be simple to 'recode' them and release updated versions like a software update.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is why I think hospitalisations are a better measure. Cases by themselves don't tell us very much, especially as we saw with Omicron. If we know that our hospitals are being swamped and unable to cope, restrictions are a good idea to avoid hospitals collapsing.

But in a situation where you have many cases and very few hospitalisations? Restrictions are completely pointless.

Only if you are looking at admissions as a result of illness directly attributable to the virus. But the published data shows admissions 'with' covid, not necessarily 'because' of covid.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Only if you are looking at admissions as a result of illness directly attributable to the virus. But the published data shows admissions 'with' covid, not necessarily 'because' of covid.

The problem is that it's very tricky to say exactly why someone is hospitalised. Take AIDS, someone can be hospitalised with the disease, yet the actual hospitalisation is because of something like pneumonia.