ASLEF accept (subject to members agreement) 5% Scotrail Pay Offer

[Efini92]

I give up. I can't be bothered. You've worn me down.

Turns out you were correct all along.
Enthusiast beats Career Signaller 1-0

Don’t give up, “negotiate” some common ground

 

[Siggy1980s]

Don’t give up, “negotiate” some common ground

I can't, I've just found out I've had it wrong for 20 years, and even my employer didn't tell me I've done it wrong all this time. Unfortunately here, we have too many SimSig signallers.

 

[507020]

I give up. I can't be bothered. You've worn me down.

Turns out you were correct all along.
Enthusiast beats Career Signaller 1-0

I’d best not get into a habit of this wearing down because to get back on topic that’s what they seem to be trying to do why pay rises…

So now train drivers have to know incoming services at every station they visit and the booked platforms for them services plus any ongoing connections.

No, but I’m sure drivers aren’t oblivious to the service pattern on the routes they drive and that they often drive multiple different services to retain competence.

 

[320320]

It's also what we call the price of living in a civilised society.

Obviously you can vote Tory to try and get the taxes on your near £80k salary reduced, but I don't fancy your chances.

Well it seems that the SNP tax policy has cost a £200m decrease in tax revenues as opposed to sticking with the UK rate. Looks like a civilised society comes at an incredible cost.

Drivers earning £75k just shows how poorly run Scotrail is and how bad the problems would’ve been before now if it wasn’t for the goodwill of myself and my fellow drivers.

The £75k works out at a 5.05 day week, so there’ll be plenty of drivers earning well in excess of that figure.

So Lynsay wouldn't recommend or reject 4.2%? He rejected the 2.2%!!

EC wouldn't put it to their members, how can Lynsay go back in and continue talks if he can't make a decision .

He doesn't look good in this now!

Weak link.

It looks like they want the bonus part of the deal to be put directly in the salary instead.

 

[wobman]

I can't, I've just found out I've had it wrong for 20 years, and even my employer didn't tell me I've done it wrong all this time. Unfortunately here, we have too many SimSig signallers.

Can I use P4 for the service im driving today as its closer to the messroom ?

 

[wobman]

I’d best not get into a habit of this wearing down because to get back on topic that’s what they seem to be trying to do why pay rises…


No, but I’m sure drivers aren’t oblivious to the service pattern on the routes they drive and that they often drive multiple different services to retain competence.

I can assure you most drivers haven't a clue what the service patterns are & timing at most stations they stop at, why would I know what's on every platform at stations such as Man Picc or BNS throughout any given day or time.
Then after every timetable change you need to relearn next batch of service patterns!

 

[Siggy1980s]

I’d best not get into a habit of this wearing down because to get back on topic that’s what they seem to be trying to do why pay rises…


No, but I’m sure drivers aren’t oblivious to the service pattern on the routes they drive and that they often drive multiple different services to retain competence.

Just out of, purely curiosity, what is your career/job?

And why would, for example, a Derby driver working for East Midlands Railway have any interest or knowledge of anything departing North from Sheffield, all just for example. Of course, there maybe a couple, but I doubt they would know at what time the Huddersfield trains go off the top of their head.

Its like me trying to advise a driver how to rectify a problem with his left side, frame top wuffle valve.....

 

[Ex-controller]

I work in IT for the public sector and have zero contact with the public we work for. But what and how I do my job can, and does have an effect on the public.

Good for you. A train driver doesn’t have any ability to impact on the public. They actually have minimal autonomy in their role.

 

[The Planner]

Too many people like the status quo of how things are done now, everyone is fine attacking traincrews T&Cs plus pay deals constantly but nobody looks at the non jobs in the industry.
I know resource staff on close to a train drivers wage, there's many jobs in the rail industry that earn more than a driver.

Train planners aren't one of them, far from it. Do you know what the average pay is? Let me know what other "non jobs" there are. Presumably you were gutted when the ROC plan fizzled out so signallers could be automated.

 

[driverd]

Might be a little bit late to the party (it's been a busy few days), but without further ado:

I don’t believe you‘re a driver for a minute. This reads like an enthusiasts essay on the way they think a driver should be behaving.

Quite right - I'm a driver minder actually, so it's my job to train drivers how to behave!

(Edit - as it appears to be causing some confusion this is intended as something of a joke, using 320320s word/sentiment).

How on earth do you ‘negotiate’ with the signaller? He tells you what’s happening and why you’re being held, it’s not a bargaining opportunity to get the train moving.

So in the TOC environment, yes and no. Generally, when we're considering minor delays into a terminus station, yes, absolutely. I don't want to be horrendously location specific due to social media policy etc, but I'm sure we all know of examples where ARS makes terrible decisions on an almost daily basis. There's plenty of times, at one location in particular, where a well timed call to the signaller allows them to spot this and change things to the benefit of all parties concerned. It's never been poorly received by the signaller and usually gets a thank you for clocking it.

In the FOC world, my colleagues who've moved across have reported there can be a fair bit of negotiating a path - don't know if any FOC drivers could advise?

Could you explain this a little further please. I don't understand how you would negotiate with the Signaller ?

Cheers in advance.

So as above. Other examples I can give are when running late and Control has pulled stops but not told the signaller. I've been looped and had a sense I was being held for the on-time express to overtake. A well timed call to the signaller allowed myself out in front, with no delay to the express behind. I made time back, the express wasn't delayed. Signaller thanked me for the call because the message hadn't made it across.

Equally, at a given junction, I know there is a stopping service that's due to come in about 7 behind the (delayed express) I was working. The stopper is meant to follow the express for circa 30 miles. On the day I was around 12 late, I rang the signaller well ahead of the junction to ask about who was getting the road first, discussed how much time I could sensibly make back in the next 10 miles etc. Probably didn't influence too much decision making but certainly put it on their radar and probably stopped ARS from prioritising the stopper (it's one of those often delayed services where it usually seems the stopper goes out first), the call ahead, possibly by coincidence, saw me go ahead. Again, this was to all parties benefit. My train made back time, the stopper has pathing time galore as standard and as such, saw no delay.

Then, of course, I think every driver on here will know of a handful of occasions we've just been missed. A quick SG sees the signal turn immediately green and life is good.

Surely the only obvious reason you're ever held is you can see there's something in the section ahead of you.

So if you unless you're able to see around a corner or that far ahead, its SG every time. But we digress......

Or ask the guard to have a quick look on traksy. Gives you a good idea of what's going on around you. I often do, as knowing what I'm following helps me to make decisions about how I'm going to drive etc.

...and before anyone pounces on this, of course, you still drive to the signals. Just, following a freight means I'll coast at a lower speed (eg: 35-40) on double yellows, following something quicker means I won't kill the speed quite as much. Obviously PDP takes priority and any prescribed speeds (eg: 40/60 at a single yellow TOC dependent, 15mph magnet) still apply.

This is comedy gold. Next time I'm sat outside a major station waiting on a platform, I'll just give the poor overworked signaller a wee ring and negotiate over which platform I go into. I can't imagine for a moment that he or she would only become even more likely to hold me outside for as long as reasonably possible.

Glad you appreciated my post. As above, there's opportunities where a call is appropriate, vs where it isn't. If we think about the bigger picture, sometimes it's just something someone has missed.

Besides, I'm sure I've suggested about 10 other ways drivers can add value to the customer experience, other than just the signaller/driver comms bit!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Because it's a real terms pay cut, and quite a large cut at that.

All those people who think that £50k+ is loads of money should bear in mind that for Scotland, Drivers will be in the 41% tax bracket. Plus 3.25% National Insurance. Then, if they have children, would face a further tax (High Income Child Charge) - which for two children is effectively 18.28% on everything earned between £50,000 and £60,000.


This means that a Scotrail driver with two children would need to actually earn £266.88 for every £100 that their costs (petrol/diesel, gas/electric, food, mortgage/rent, etc.) rise.



For England and Wales, the tax rate is 40% and if you live there and went to university, then there's basically a further tax you have to pay (9% I believe) to pay back your tuition fees. If you went to university and have two kids and are a train driver in England you'd need to earn £335.90 to make up for a £100 rise in living costs.

So, those of you looking on with green envious eyes at the headline salary figures, it isn't as lucrative as you think it is!

Thanks for providing an insight into Scottish taxation wasn't aware of what they've implemented vs England.

My point stands though that ASLEF didn't put the offer to the membership although I suspect I know what the answer would be but ASLEF don't really know what the membership would be satisfied with.

 

[driverd]

What a well reasoned and refreshing post. Thank you for putting forward your point of view

Well said, quite frankly the level of professionalism employed in the basic disciplines of just showing some care for what you are doing and the people you are transporting would go a long way. Far too many of the grade forget the link between the hunk of metal they operate and the fact that its full with people who pay for that service. Those people aren't there, the service doesn't exist...

Sorry guys, missed these posts. Thank you for your support - it's typical of the grade to see people shouting down anyone who thinks even slightly outside the box (as you've seen). Thankfully my employer recognises my contribution (thus why I'm training folk pretty early on into my career) - hopefully over time the tide will turn a little bit.

 

[Goldfish62]

To be fair Scotrail drivers are also about the worst paid train drivers in the whole of the U.K.

Circa. £50k isn’t anything like as much money as people on here seem to think - it’s a reasonable income but frankly nothing special for what’s entailed with the job.

The average median annual salary in Scotland stands at just over £26k which is probably why many people think that a salary almost double that is good:

Earnings in Scotland: 2021

This briefing looks at the latest data for Scotland from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings.

digitalpublications.parliament.scot

When looking at pay for all employees:

At £26,007, Scotland has the third highest median gross annual salary of the nations and regions of the UK and it is higher than the UK figure.

 

[ComUtoR]

Then, of course, I think every driver on here will know of a handful of occasions we've just been missed. A quick SG sees the signal turn immediately green and life is good.

Which, of course, is one of the reasons why it is a rulebook requirement.

Thanks for your explanations.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s a few years since I did a Scotrail bid but the pay levels for railway staff - well, there weren’t so many in Scotrail who got a bigger wedge than the drivers and there are good reasons for them getting that level of pay - supply, demand and the nature of the job itself.

I don’t know of many non-jobs on the railway - as a fairly ruthless cutter of office jobs, I usually get rid of them if I find them. There are plenty of jobs that could go, if things were done differently, but that is another story.

I don’t have any problem with any union batting for it’s members, especially in these times of higher costs. The union has to judge the situation carefully but with inflation ripping, 4.2% isn’t now going to cut it with a lot of the members. We are back to the 1970’s and the expectation, in terms of matching inflation, that a lot of people had in those days.

The problem for any Government in Scotland is how to fund an (actual or nearly) RPI or CPI deal for all grades without a degree of restructuring (or reductions) for the whole industry north of the border, because otherwise something else in their stretched budget has to give.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s a few years since I did a Scotrail bid but the pay levels for railway staff - well, there weren’t so many in Scotrail who got a bigger wedge than the drivers and there are good reasons for them getting that level of pay - supply, demand and the nature of the job itself.

I don’t know of many non-jobs on the railway - as a fairly ruthless cutter of office jobs, I usually get rid of them if I find them. There are plenty of jobs that could go, if things were done differently, but that is another story.

I don’t have any problem with any union batting for it’s members, especially in these times of higher costs. The union has to judge the situation carefully but with inflation ripping, 4.2% isn’t now going to cut it with a lot of the members. We are back to the 1970’s and the expectation, in terms of matching inflation, that a lot of people had in those days.

The problem for any Government in Scotland is how to fund an (actual or nearly) RPI or CPI deal for all grades without a degree of restructuring (or reductions) for the whole industry north of the border, because otherwise something else in their stretched budget has to give.

The problem for any govt is once they concede to one employment group everyone else wants the same understandably. The reality in the UK is management push down on the workers but continue to collect the rewards themselves and until they show they are sharing the pain we won't get out of these cycles.

 

[43066]

So as above. Other examples I can give are when running late and Control has pulled stops but not told the signaller. I've been looped and had a sense I was being held for the on-time express to overtake. A well timed call to the signaller allowed myself out in front, with no delay to the express behind. I made time back, the express wasn't delayed. Signaller thanked me for the call because the message hadn't made it across.

Equally, at a given junction, I know there is a stopping service that's due to come in about 7 behind the (delayed express) I was working. The stopper is meant to follow the express for circa 30 miles. On the day I was around 12 late, I rang the signaller well ahead of the junction to ask about who was getting the road first, discussed how much time I could sensibly make back in the next 10 miles etc. Probably didn't influence too much decision making but certainly put it on their radar and probably stopped ARS from prioritising the stopper (it's one of those often delayed services where it usually seems the stopper goes out first), the call ahead, possibly by coincidence, saw me go ahead. Again, this was to all parties benefit. My train made back time, the stopper has pathing time galore as standard and as such, saw no delay.

Some of this sounds sensible on the face of it, some of it sounds like it’s straying firmly into the territory of potential distraction risk, both for yourself and potentially for the signallers you’re speaking to. If every driver phoned up to give the signaller their suggestion on how to “make up time”, which routes to set etc., I think the signallers would soon find themselves spending more time “negotiating” than actually keeping the trains moving.

I also wouldn’t necessarily assume that because you’re a “minder” that means all that much, or makes you any kind of expert on the job. I’ve encountered some who are excellent, some who do it for completely the wrong reasons: the money, liking the sound of their own voices, or enjoying bossing people around being three unfortunate examples. At my previous TOC especially anyone who wanted to do it would have their arm bitten off, would be put through a day or so’s training and then let loose with a green cab pass.

The results were variable to say the least…

It's typical of the grade to see people shouting down anyone who thinks even slightly outside the box (as you've seen).

I disagree, most of us probably just realise the value of focussing on doing our own jobs correctly rather than troubling ourselves telling others how to do theirs. Nine times out of ten signallers have a plan for what they’re doing and I generally extend them the professional courtesy of not bothering them unless there’s a good reason. Of course there are times were a call is the correct thing to do, but that generally won’t include taking it upon myself to question their routing decisions.

It’s a few years since I did a Scotrail bid but the pay levels for railway staff - well, there weren’t so many in Scotrail who got a bigger wedge than the drivers and there are good reasons for them getting that level of pay - supply, demand and the nature of the job itself.

I don’t know of many non-jobs on the railway - as a fairly ruthless cutter of office jobs, I usually get rid of them if I find them. There are plenty of jobs that could go, if things were done differently, but that is another story.

I don’t have any problem with any union batting for it’s members, especially in these times of higher costs. The union has to judge the situation carefully but with inflation ripping, 4.2% isn’t now going to cut it with a lot of the members. We are back to the 1970’s and the expectation, in terms of matching inflation, that a lot of people had in those days.

The problem for any Government in Scotland is how to fund an (actual or nearly) RPI or CPI deal for all grades without a degree of restructuring (or reductions) for the whole industry north of the border, because otherwise something else in their stretched budget has to give.

This is a sensible post. I agree train-crew accusing others of doing “non jobs” is a slippery slope when the biggest complaint many of us have ourselves as that our jobs are disrespected/misunderstood.

Also agreed that the railway isn’t exactly overburdened with staff at any level these days.

 

[Efini92]

Sorry guys, missed these posts. Thank you for your support - it's typical of the grade to see people shouting down anyone who thinks even slightly outside the box (as you've seen). Thankfully my employer recognises my contribution (thus why I'm training folk pretty early on into my career) - hopefully over time the tide will turn a little bit.

How early is early on into your career?

 

[driverd]

Some of this sounds sensible on the face of it, some of it sounds like it’s straying firmly into the territory of potential distraction risk, both for yourself and potentially for the signallers you’re speaking to. If every driver phoned up to give the signaller their suggestion on how to “make up time”, which routes to set etc., I think the signallers would soon find themselves spending more time “negotiating” than actually keeping the trains moving.

Again, I think it's difficult to explain the situation without going into too much specific detail. It's far from an hourly occurance, just something that helps from time to time. I'd argue a quick conversation to help prevent a situation that frequently results in running on cautionary aspects and results in people missing trains, trains being out of pattern further down the line and multiple delays with the knock on effects, overall, far reduces the risk of an incident when we look at the bigger picture.

I also wouldn’t necessarily assume that because you’re a “minder” that means all that much, or makes you any kind of expert on the job. I’ve encountered some who are excellent, some who do it for completely the wrong reasons: the money, liking the sound of their own voices, or enjoying bossing people around being three unfortunate examples. At my previous TOC especially anyone who wanted to do it would have their arm bitten off, would be put through a day or so’s training and then let loose with a green cab pass.

The results were variable to say the least…

I'm not assuming any of this. The comment was more tongue in cheek as I got accused of being an imposter!

I won't make any further comment - I'd like to think my professionalism comes through on here. I've no interest in bossing anyone around, I'm motivated by seeing people achieve their ambitions and overcome personal challenges, whilst bringing their own brand of personality to the industry and making it thrive.

I disagree, most of us probably realise the value of focussing on doing our own jobs correctly rather than troubling ourselves telling others how to do theirs. Nine times out of ten signallers have a plan for what they’re doing and I generally extend them the professional courtesy of not bothering them unless there’s a good reason. Of course there are times were a call is the correct thing to do, but they generally won’t include questioning their routing decisions.

I'm not intending on telling anyone how to do their job. Anyone in the grade can do it as they so desire. What I'm saying is there are ways drivers can contribute to the customer experience, and giving examples of how I go about it.

I've never told a signaller what to do. It's simply a case of bringing something that may have gone missed to their attention. If it hasn't we have a polite conversation about the delay and the information is passed to the customers. As it happens, as I pointed out above, on our routes there are known locations where ARS makes poor regulation decisions and the signaller has a big panel to manage, so can't always keep on top of every regulation decision. A polite heads up has never gone down badly in my experience.

 

[Horizon22]

It’s a few years since I did a Scotrail bid but the pay levels for railway staff - well, there weren’t so many in Scotrail who got a bigger wedge than the drivers and there are good reasons for them getting that level of pay - supply, demand and the nature of the job itself.

I don’t know of many non-jobs on the railway - as a fairly ruthless cutter of office jobs, I usually get rid of them if I find them. There are plenty of jobs that could go, if things were done differently, but that is another story.

I don’t have any problem with any union batting for it’s members, especially in these times of higher costs. The union has to judge the situation carefully but with inflation ripping, 4.2% isn’t now going to cut it with a lot of the members. We are back to the 1970’s and the expectation, in terms of matching inflation, that a lot of people had in those days.

The problem for any Government in Scotland is how to fund an (actual or nearly) RPI or CPI deal for all grades without a degree of restructuring (or reductions) for the whole industry north of the border, because otherwise something else in their stretched budget has to give.

I agree - there's lots of people going on about "management roles" (in fact someone quotes some roles at Northern) with literally no idea what they do other than a job title that seems a bit long-winded. Network Rail and TOCs are large organisations and you can't have just have everyone in an frontline role. "Operations" is perhaps the most overused title in the railway!

They've tried to cut middle manager in organisations such as the NHS and that has only resulted in more inefficiency because clinical staff have been lumbered with it. Large organisations are somewhat bureaucratic by their nature - sometimes uncessarily so but often there are key elements in roles to keep things ticking over in the background and it would be noticable eventually.

There's a long of short-termism in this government right now which means there's a poor understanding of costs which may will come to be detrimental in the long run.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Some of this sounds sensible on the face of it, some of it sounds like it’s straying firmly into the territory of potential distraction risk, both for yourself and potentially for the signallers you’re speaking to. If every driver phoned up to give the signaller their suggestion on how to “make up time”, which routes to set etc., I think the signallers would soon find themselves spending more time “negotiating” than actually keeping the trains moving.

Some of this sounds sensible on the face of it, some of it sounds like it’s straying firmly into the territory of potential distraction risk, both for yourself and potentially for the signallers you’re speaking to. If every driver phoned up to give the signaller their suggestion on how to “make up time”, which routes to set etc., I think the signallers would soon find themselves spending more time “negotiating” than actually keeping the trains moving.

I also wouldn’t necessarily assume that because you’re a “minder” that means all that much, or makes you any kind of expert on the job. I’ve encountered some who are excellent, some who do it for completely the wrong reasons: the money, liking the sound of their own voices, or enjoying bossing people around being three unfortunate examples. At my previous TOC especially anyone who wanted to do it would have their arm bitten off, would be put through a day or so’s training and then let loose with a green cab pass.

The results were variable to say the least…



I disagree, most of us probably just realise the value of focussing on doing our own jobs correctly rather than troubling ourselves telling others how to do theirs. Nine times out of ten signallers have a plan for what they’re doing and I generally extend them the professional courtesy of not bothering them unless there’s a good reason. Of course there are times were a call is the correct thing to do, but that generally won’t include taking it upon myself to question their routing decisions.



This is a sensible post. I agree train-crew accusing others of doing “non jobs” is a slippery slope when the biggest complaint many of us have ourselves as that our jobs are disrespected/misunderstood.

Also agreed that the railway isn’t exactly overburdened with staff at any level these days.

Yes, as a Signaller the distractions are endless! Especially since the invention of GSMR. You never used to hear from from drivers pre GSMR days, but now its just constant SG after SG. Note to trigger happy drivers in Signalling Centre areas.... We have Track Circuits, we can see you!!!

 

[320320]

Quite right - I'm a driver minder actually, so it's my job to train drivers how to behave!
,

Still not buying it, but if you are indeed a driver instructor then I worry for your trainees when you display such a condescending attitude toward them.

Its not a DIs job to teach people how to ‘behave’. A trainee has enough pressure with route learning, train handling and DTM assessments in a relatively short space of time without worrying about ’negotiating’ with the signaller.

Any DI worth his salt would be teaching the trainee to focus on the safe running of their train, not to let late running worry them and certainly not to concern themselves with trying to get in front of other late running trains.

You‘ll probably pick this up with experience given that you’re ‘pretty early on’ in your career.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, as a Signaller the distractions are endless! Especially since the invention of GSMR. You never used to hear from from drivers pre GSMR days, but now its just constant SG after SG. Note to trigger happy drivers in Signalling Centre areas.... We have Track Circuits, we can see you!!!

It is of course variable - I have had to call signallers on occasion to ask about services getting the road with no identifiable cause. Sometimes it's ARS playing up, and other times dealing with another issue but occasionally yes, inattention. Most signallers do thank you for noticing something out of place (I've on occasion prevented then from making operationally banned movements) although some are grumpy, but as is the same in any grade; some people are conscientious, helpful and friendly and others shouldn't be anywhere near the railway or any customer-facing role.

 

[driverd]

Still not buying it, but if you are indeed a driver instructor then I worry for your trainees when you display such a condescending attitude toward them.

I can only see one party being condescending here but I'll run with it.

Its not a DIs job to teach people how to ‘behave’.

I think you've missed me using your own words...

A trainee has enough pressure with route learning, train handling and DTM assessments in a relatively short space of time without worrying about ’negotiating’ with the signaller.

Any DI worth his salt would be teaching the trainee to focus on the safe running of their train, not to let late running worry them and certainly not to concern themselves with trying to get in front of other late running trains.

Yep, but there's plenty of opportunities to maximise your capacity. Such as being stood at a signal at danger, DRA on, direction selector to neutral. Any trainer, in any industry, worth their salt, will recognise the capacity of their trainee and encourage them to use resources available to execute their job in an efficient and productive manner.

You‘ll probably pick this up with experience given that you’re ‘pretty early on’ in your career.

And once again we see criticism of anyone who thinks outside the box.

It is of course variable - I have had to call signallers on occasion to ask about services getting the road with no identifiable cause. Sometimes it's ARS playing up, and other times dealing with another issue but occasionally yes, inattention. Most signallers do thank you for noticing something out of place (I've on occasion prevented then from making operationally banned movements) although some are grumpy, but as is the same in any grade; some people are conscientious, helpful and friendly and others shouldn't be anywhere near the railway or any customer-facing role.

Absolutely this.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem for any govt is once they concede to one employment group everyone else wants the same understandably. The reality in the UK is management push down on the workers but continue to collect the rewards themselves and until they show they are sharing the pain we won't get out of these cycles.

Another problem for any govt is to stop unnecessary burdens on social services and keep tax revenues up so paying decent wages across the board can have positive economic effects as well as the obvious downside of inflation.

I’m not sure management on the railways push down on the workers and collect rewards any more, except for the most senior ones who are still on bonuses/share options. Most managers (some of whom really aren’t managing anything but a job title - they are really supervisors/clerks) will in the same boat as the workers. There will be the ones who try and make a name for themselves but there have always been those idiots around!

If I was the Scottish Government, I would be going hard for greater VI in the railways north of the border to rake in the savings to justify a better deal for the staff. The unions could play a public part in this too.

 

[320320]

Yes, as a Signaller the distractions are endless! Especially since the invention of GSMR. You never used to hear from from drivers pre GSMR days, but now its just constant SG after SG. Note to trigger happy drivers in Signalling Centre areas.... We have Track Circuits, we can see you!!!

Is it an issue for you if we press SG rather than go to the signal and press the TRTS? I always press the TRTS now as a few times I’ve had signallers on the gsmr to ask me why I’ve SGd and it seemed rather pedantic.
Ive never asked a signaller before to know if there is a problem with it or whether it‘s something they’re told to challenge a driver for.

 

[43066]

Most signallers do thank you for noticing something out of place (I've on occasion prevented then from making operationally banned movements)

Of course this is *very* much in the territory of when a call isn’t only appropriate but essential!

I’m a few years (and two TOCs) in. I’ve known many instructors, mentors and managers over the years. I don’t know a single one who would generally call the signaller to question routes in the way described upthread. It’s difficult to describe but you know when something doesn’t quite add up… So on balance I agree with @320320 .I won’t say any more than that on the subject!

 

[Siggy1980s]

Is it an issue for you if we press SG rather than go to the signal and press the TRTS? I always press the TRTS now as a few times I’ve had signallers on the gsmr to ask me why I’ve SGd and it seemed rather pedantic.
Ive never asked a signaller before to know if there is a problem with it or whether it‘s something they’re told to challenge a driver for.

Yes, because SG will not call the route for your respective signal you are waiting to clear in the station. TRTS in an ARS area initiates the Signalling System to pull off in time for your departure.

So if the signaller is busy doing something 20 miles away in his Workstation, and you press SG, you are not forced to get the signal, especially as most signallers just press wait through force of habit on a busy Workstation.

Why though would the driver be pressing the TRTS? Is that not the guards job or station staff as part of their duties?

 

[Horizon22]

Of course this is *very* much in the territory of when a call isn’t only appropriate but essential!

I’m a few years (and two TOCs) in. I’ve known many instructors, mentors and managers over the years. I don’t know a single one who would generally call the signaller to question routes in the way described upthread. It’s difficult to describe but you know when something doesn’t quite add up… So on balance I agree with @320320 .I won’t say any more than that on the subject!

Yes - I don't happen to know the ins and outs of driving but have spoken with many over my time, and it just doesn't strike me as the normal signaller-driver communication protocol. Okay occasonally there might be a rare question (or use of SG) and again the response you might get from the signaller may be variable.

I think many of us would like consistency on the railway - in all grades - and the highest standard and I would strive to that and help others achieve it, but we have to accept that isn't always going to be reality and there's humans involved in much of the operation at the end of the day.

 

[43066]

Note to trigger happy drivers in Signalling Centre areas.... We have Track Circuits, we can see you!!!

The most blatant “signaller napping” I’ve had was on our absolute block (albeit track circuited) diversionary route at about 0100 in the pitch dark. Brought down to a red at a signal protecting a LC. Stop, wait. After a minute or so I hit SG and almost immediately saw a sudden movement in the box, on came the wigwags, down came the barriers.

Wakey wakey