Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Elorith]

What I find hard to understand is why the most recently built units can't go into service - maybe the ones built in the COVID years are poor but the newer units have been built with knowledge about the earlier failings.

Simply because many of the faults remain unresolved on the earlier units and brand new units are still leaving the factory with these same faults

 

[TRAX]

If this debacle cannot be resolved, is there a chance for the 701s to be stripped back and rebuilt to become something like a metro third rail version of the slightly more reliable 720s, with larger cab ends, using the 720 template to build on?

Obviously with some different specs such as length of coaches & door positions etc.

There’s a lot of panic and speculation (the second name of these forums ) about these trains, but in the worldwide railway industry, years-long and difficult introductions of new rolling stock aren’t new. No doubt these trains will get to enter service as Class 701s eventually.

 

[Snow1964]

Simply because many of the faults remain unresolved on the earlier units and brand new units are still leaving the factory with these same faults

In what sort of organisation, does Quality Control say, something is poorly done or faulty, and then someone in management say, ok let’s build lots more with same faults. It is not like they will magically go away, going to have to be fixed sometime.

You do rather wonder about the culture, it almost sounds like if someone had a leaky tea mug in canteen, they would just carry on and keeping using it day after day, with tea leaking out every day, because why bother to sort the problem.

A sort of not my problem Guv attitude and culture, not my job to fix anything (or not my job to change my leaking tea mug, just to drink from it).

 

[TRAX]

In what sort of organisation, does Quality Control say, something is poorly done or faulty, and then someone in management say, ok let’s build lots more with same faults. It is not like they will magically go away, going to have to be fixed sometime.

You do rather wonder about the culture, it almost sounds like if someone had a leaky tea mug in canteen, they would just carry on and keeping using it day after day, with tea leaking out every day, because why bother to sort the problem.

Given the performance of most Bombardier products in the years leading to the Alstom takeover, one has to wonder if any of the Bombardier factories (except Kassel maybe…) actually had Quality Control…

 

[nlogax]

No doubt these trains will get to enter service as Class 701s eventually.

By the time these see the light of day they'll be Class 701.5s..

 

[43096]

Given the performance of most Bombardier products in the years leading to the Alstom takeover, one has to wonder if any of the Bombardier factories (except Kassel maybe…) actually had Quality Control…

Even Kassel has been affected: there have been serial issues with the TRAXX 3. It is notable how Siemens have won most of the big orders since TRAXX 3 has had problems.

 

[hwl]

If this debacle cannot be resolved, is there a chance for the 701s to be stripped back and rebuilt to become something like a metro third rail version of the slightly more reliable 720s, with larger cab ends, using the 720 template to build on?

Obviously with some different specs such as length of coaches & door positions etc.

Or the 710s being nearly identical bodyshells apart from the cabs...

What I find hard to understand is why the most recently built units can't go into service - maybe the ones built in the COVID years are poor but the newer units have been built with knowledge about the earlier failings.

At the start for the first few months of Covid DfT refused to allow deferment of delivery without penalty so Bombardier just kept building and binned any pretence of quality control to maintain build rates.
Alstom on taking over stopped everything and restarted production slowly with quality control added.

 

[Energy]

Wonder what happened to Bombardier? While the electrostars and turbostars aren't the most reliable things in the world they are nowhere near this bad, I guess the early ones were more Adtranz than Bombardier though.

 

[Invincible]

Will these end up going the same way as the Class 442? How much money was wasted spent on these units? When does SWR decide enough is enough...?

And before anyone asks, I know the 442s were much older trains but had brand new traction packages among other technical stuff

Presumably Angel have not yet paid Alstom, who brought Bombardier.
A lot might hang on if the 701 spec was met, or if the spec was updated with later unforeseen mods? Or SWR and the union found to many faults? Maybe now the 345s are running Alstom might have time to sort them?

 

[43096]

Presumably Angel have not yet paid Alstom, who brought Bombardier.
A lot might hang on if the 701 spec was met, or if the spec was updated with later unforeseen mods?

Why would Angel be paying for them?

 

[fgwrich]

Wonder what happened to Bombardier? While the electrostars and turbostars aren't the most reliable things in the world they are nowhere near this bad, I guess the early ones were more Adtranz than Bombardier though.

Things seem to have fallen apart across Bombardier over the latter part of the last decade, remember it was troubles (including build quality and reliability) in the Aerospace division which initially led to Bombardier's sneed to raise cash and sell off it's Transportation Division. Part of me feels that they were quite happy to let their reputation and brand proceed themselves, particularly after the Thameslink debacle where they quite often pretended to be a British firm heavily let down by the government after awarding it to a big bad German firm (despite Siemens having more UK pedigree, and Bombardier Transportation being a French Canadian firm headquartered in Berlin). Quite often they seemed to be good at selling you the dream, without either delivering it (See London Underground's SSL re-signalling project for another Bombardier farce) or delivering it late (Class 172s for another example).

Presumably Angel have not yet paid Alstom, who brought Bombardier.
A lot might hang on if the 701 spec was met, or if the spec was updated with later unforeseen mods? Or SWR and the union found to many faults? Maybe now the 345s are running Alstom might have time to sort them?

Angel wont have anything to do with this - the leasers of the 701's are Rock Rail and their finances have been covered a little further back in this thread.

 

[Energy]

Things seem to have fallen apart across Bombardier over the latter part of the last decade, remember it was troubles (including build quality and reliability) in the Aerospace division which initially led to Bombardier's sneed to raise cash and sell off it's Transportation Division.

The 2009 stock wasn't without problems, some of the S stock units had to be sent back as well.

particularly after the Thameslink debacle where they quite often pretended to be a British firm heavily let down by the government after awarding it to a big bad German firm

Don't forget the East Midlands order in which Bombardier was the "British" firm loosing a contract to a Japanese firm with a factory in the UK. And for the HS2 bid both Hitachi and Bombardier referred to it as "Great British" despite a majoring selling point being that its a proven model already running in Italy.

 

[Mikey C]

The 2009 stock wasn't without problems, some of the S stock units had to be sent back as well.

Lots of new trains have "teething" troubles, but it didn't take long for the 2009 and S stock to settle down and give good service. The 710s were late but seem to be fine now?

 

[Invincible]

Angel wont have anything to do with this - the leasers of the 701's are Rock Rail and their finances have been covered a little further back in this thread.

Thanks

 

[TRAX]

Even Kassel has been affected: there have been serial issues with the TRAXX 3. It is notable how Siemens have won most of the big orders since TRAXX 3 has had problems.

Yes indeed, although this is more about software. Alstom is already slapping its own ETCS software in new TRAXX orders, which is a good thing.

 

[tomuk]

Wonder what happened to Bombardier?

They decided to build an aircraft, the C-series, to take on Boeing and Airbus. Although the aircraft turned out to be quite good building it basically bankrupted he company. The C-series was sold to Airbus, the rail division to Alstom, the aero structures division to Spirit i.e. Shorts in Belfast and the remaining aircraft business severely restructured to just two families of business jet. Despite all of that Bombardier are still servicing a $30 billion dollar debt.

 

[Energy]

They decided to build an aircraft, the C-series, to take on Boeing and Airbus. Although the aircraft turned out to be quite good building it basically bankrupted he company. The C-series was sold to Airbus, the rail division to Alstom, the aero structures division to Spirit i.e. Shorts in Belfast and the remaining aircraft business severely restructured to just two families of business jet. Despite all of that Bombardier are still servicing a $30 billion dollar debt.

I'm aware of the C series and Bombardier's lack of cash though I think there is more too it given the number of problems the 701s had (doors coming open isn't teething problems).

Lots of new trains have "teething" troubles, but it didn't take long for the 2009 and S stock to settle down and give good service. The 710s were late but seem to be fine now?

Agreed, the 710s delays seem to be mainly software.

 

[tomuk]

I'm aware of the C series and Bombardier's lack of cash though I think there is more too it given the number of problems the 701s had (doors coming open isn't teething problems).

Odd how the doors appear to be ok on the other Aventras. And there have been door issues on other stock. The 155s immediately come to mind. What about the CAF units maybe not coming open but the SDO has been suspect.

 

[samuelmorris]

Doors coming open was a problem on the 345s as well as I recall.

 

[TRAX]

They decided to build an aircraft, the C-series, to take on Boeing and Airbus. Although the aircraft turned out to be quite good building it basically bankrupted he company. The C-series was sold to Airbus, the rail division to Alstom, the aero structures division to Spirit i.e. Shorts in Belfast and the remaining aircraft business severely restructured to just two families of business jet. Despite all of that Bombardier are still servicing a $30 billion dollar debt.

Want to go through a list of all the recent Bombardier Transportation products that were and are problematic ?

 

[tomuk]

Want to go through a list of all the recent Bombardier Transportation products that were and are problematic ?

Not sure what that proves? I'm not denying Bombardier products have had issues if anything it would prove my point that issues aren't surprising when the wider company is circling the drain of bankruptcy.

 

[TRAX]

Not sure what that proves? I'm not denying Bombardier products have had issues if anything it would prove my point that issues aren't surprising when the wider company is circling the drain of bankruptcy.

Not sure why you thought I was contradicting you ?

 

[Mikey C]

Doors coming open was a problem on the 345s as well as I recall.

But hasn't been for ages, otherwise the central Liz line wouldn't have opened. And that has platform doors to add to the complications

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At the start for the first few months of Covid DfT refused to allow deferment of delivery without penalty so Bombardier just kept building and binned any pretence of quality control to maintain build rates.
Alstom on taking over stopped everything and restarted production slowly with quality control added.

One thing is confusing me. If that ↑↑↑↑↑ is the case, why is this ↓↓↓↓↓ happening?

Simply because many of the faults remain unresolved on the earlier units and brand new units are still leaving the factory with these same faults

 

[Recessio]

For the benefit of us non-industry people here: When people say e.g. 40 faults per unit, what are the types of faults we're talking about? Is it small cosmetic things, failures of components, missing components, incorrectly installed components, software failures, etc?

 

[TRAX]

For the benefit of us non-industry people here: When people say e.g. 40 faults per unit, what are the types of faults we're talking about? Is it small cosmetic things, failures of components, missing components, incorrectly installed components, software failures, etc?

I’d say a little bit of all this - except maybe cosmetic things and missing components…

This will ring a bell to a few people, but this is an AnsaldoBreda-level débâcle !

 

[tomuk]

I’d say a little bit of all this - except maybe cosmetic things and missing components…

This will ring a bell to a few people, but this is an AnsaldoBreda-level débâcle !

I can't understand how the 701s can be so bad there are other Aventras in service. Heck Elizabeth line are running near 100% PPM in the core with the more complicated 345s.

 

[TRAX]

I can't understand how the 701s can be so bad there are other Aventras in service. Heck Elizabeth line are running near 100% PPM in the core with the more complicated 345s.

They aren’t exactly the same train under the hood…

 

[Goldfish62]

They aren’t exactly the same train under the hood…

Indeed, the 345 is very non-standard.

 

[fgwrich]

I can't understand how the 701s can be so bad there are other Aventras in service. Heck Elizabeth line are running near 100% PPM in the core with the more complicated 345s.

As well as being different (don’t forget there’s a few years difference between the earliest 345 and the first 701), the software is completely different as well - unless it’s been updated since, they were running around with an updated Electrostar Software package in them - In short, they were built before Bombardier Bangalore had the Aventra software package ready.