TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Runningaround]

I've noticed a few Newtown - Oswestry passengers and as I said before there are plenty who use it to catch the North Wales and Chester bound trains at Gobowen rather than the train via Shrewsbury.
If it had a Sunday and later service, possibly hourly at points that connected better with the trains and got supported by a better Llanidloes/Rhayader it'd would be even better.
Shame the 1 Bws day ticket isn't valid on the whole T12 as its significantly cheaper on the T2 and T3 to get to Wrexham.

 

[burns20]

The T12 doesn't serve Gobowen railway station

The Powys Day Rover at £9.00 is valid on the entire T12 route

 

[markymark2000]

The Powys Day Rover at £9.00 is valid on the entire T12 route

Interesting. I didn't know that it included Wrexham. The only online info on the Powys Day Ranger and it's validity is a Stagecoach map which shows as far as Oswestry.

If it's valid up to Wrexham, I may have a day trip to plan.

 

[iantherev]

When timetables show a gap like T5 it generally means a change of Bus, the T4 shows five different timetables which looks as if you either change or wait?

I'm not certain what the issue is? It's the conversion and linking of existing services, doesn't compete with rail, and opens up a number of through links that wouldn't be possible to form a long distance service. Unless you know what the previous passenger figures were for the previous service, we cannot say what the effect, positive or negative, of the T12 is (though I'd be surprised if fewer passengers travelled on it after they became the T12)

10 x MCV bodied B8RLEs is what he's referring to, I suspect, hence the reference to the T4

It is indeed.

 

[Runningaround]

The T12 doesn't serve Gobowen railway station

The Powys Day Rover at £9.00 is valid on the entire T12 route

And even with a change of bus they still travel there instead of via Shrewsbury. Like I said, if the T12 served the train stations better, rather than leaving at the same time it'd be a busier service.

Having to be in Newtown/Caersws before 6pm to catch your last bus (and nothing until Monday if it's Saturday) to villages off the railway route isn't encouraging passengers out of the car. Similarly the factories in Newtown crying out for staff aren't served by buses suitable for their shifts. 6-6, 8-8, 2-10 etc.

 

[markymark2000]

And even with a change of bus they still travel there instead of via Shrewsbury. Like I said, if the T12 served the train stations better, rather than leaving at the same time it'd be a busier service.

Having to be in Newtown/Caersws before 6pm to catch your last bus (and nothing until Monday if it's Saturday) to villages off the railway route isn't encouraging passengers out of the car. Similarly the factories in Newtown crying out for staff aren't served by buses suitable for their shifts. 6-6, 8-8, 2-10 etc.

No one, unless they are a bus pass holder or doing it as an adventure, is going from Newton to Gobowen to catch a train rather than going via Shrewsbury. Via Shrewsbury on the train, 1 hour 30. T12 and 53 to Gobowen, 2h 10. And that depends on the decent connection.

You're in a fantasy land if you think people are making those journeys on the regular.

 

[splashoutradio]

The Powys Day Rover at £9.00 is valid on the entire T12 route

According to the TrawsCymru website (which admittedly is liable to be inaccurate), the £11 TrawsCymru day ticket is valid on the T12 in its entirety.

The “TrawsCymru® Day Ticket” allows unlimited travel on TrawsCymru® services T1, T1C, T1S, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, T12, X43, 460 and the T9 Cardiff Airport Express between Cardiff City Centre and Cardiff Airport. Tickets can be purchased from drivers and are then valid until the last advertised journey on the day of purchase.

Adult: £11
Child/Young person*: £7.30
Group Ticket: £27

 

[johntrawscymru]

Both the T11 and T12 are shown on the TrawsCymru route map as 'TrawsCymru Connect' services (although other pages on the website do describe them without the word 'connect').

you cannot make that accusation against the T11 and T12 if they are indeed advertised as 'TrawsCymru Connect' and not just 'TrawsCymru'. It is the latter brand that should be a network of long distance bus services.

I don't know much about the other two services, but for the T11 I would suggest that no research was necessary.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was a case of service cuts beng threatened and the Welsh Government stepping in with the money to keep it running, but wanting to put their own brand on it so highlight their involvement.

the conversion and linking of existing services, doesn't compete with rail, and opens up a number of through links that wouldn't be possible to form a long distance service. Unless you know what the previous passenger figures were for the previous service, we cannot say what the effect, positive or negative, of the T12 is

So two trips over two years ago has brought you to your answer? The T12 is busy enough for a rural service

many use the T12 from Welshpool to travel to Gobowen train station as it's preferable to using the train.

As a driver of the T12 it is busier than when it used to be the X85, interesting travel patterns of Caersws to Oswestry and Wrexham have become regular

Chirk to Wrexham has become busier than ever post Lockdown with +10 passengers per journey picked up in Chirk alone now commonplace

The basic problem with any discussion on Trawscymru is the lack of published information on research on new routes, service reliability and passenger numbers. There is no way to measure success of the network without this information, which the Welsh Government are not publishing.

In terms of passenger numbers on the T12 I am far more likely to take the evidence of a bus driver who drives the T12 route than someone who simply knows the T12 route is busier and that passengers are travelling from Welshpool to Gobowen to catch the Train.

The bus driver mentions the travel patterns from Caerswys to Oswestry/Wrexham which is interesting as those passengers have a long journey with the T12 diversions particularly through Montgomery, which is regularly gridlocked.

However in the final analysis the only way to show the patronage of the T12 is by publication of the passenger figures and this also applies to all the other Trawscymru services whether they be Trawscymru or Trawscymru Connect.

In relation to Trawscymru Connect the local bus services that have been used to form the Trawscymru Connect service were in fact already connecting with the Trawscymru network. The T11 was a combination of 2 services which both connected with the T5 at different places in Haverfordwest and Fishguard. The 3 local bus services that formed the T12 would also have presumably connected with the existing Trawscymru network before rebranding.

You would expect that local bus services would connect with the Trawscymru Network. Public transport services whether train or bus should be connected. The X28 could be seen as a connection Between the Trawscymru T1/T5 services and the T12 Trawscymru Connect service.

The Trawscymru Connect is a flawed concept as the aim of all transport services should be to optimise, as far as possible, to connect with the Trawscymru Long Distance network.

The Welsh Government only distinguish between Trawscymru and Trawscymru Connect by name. In publicity they refer to the success of the Trawscymru network. I have not seen any publicity about the success of Trawscymru Connect as a separate brand or comparative passenger figures before and after the rebranding of services as Trawscymru Connect.

The rebranding as Trawscymru Connect does absolutely nothing to attract more passengers onto the Trawscymru network. The same passengers that used the Local bus services before rebranding use the Trawscymru Connect service. The only difference is that the Welsh Government provide funding directly and not via the Council funding for the Local services. However what it does do is increase the number of passengers using the "Trawscymru network" and allow the claim that passenger numbers are increasing on the Trawscymru long distance network, which is misleading if not incorrect .

The argument on the thread that Trawscymru long distance services can only be put in place where there is an existing bus service/passenger demand and on a route which does not compete with rail (for example T3) is also flawed.

The train network in Wales is totally inadequate. Public transport between major cities and towns is inadequate. Trawscymru long distance services are essential and should be direct services between the major cities and towns, fed by local bus services . This requires a major piece of research on traffic flows to determine where those routes are. It is not good enough to say there has been no demand or no routes there in the past.

The only way cars will be removed from the roads is by an efficient network of direct long distance Trawscymru services where all local bus services are designed to feed into the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And where Traws feeds rail, to complete the picture (yet it's specifically designed not to, or rather a design aimed at that was rejected)

Is there one single country with high public transport modal share that doesn't fully or near-fully integrate?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The rebranding as Trawscymru Connect does absolutely nothing to attract more passengers onto the Trawscymru network. The same passengers that used the Local bus services before rebranding use the Trawscymru Connect service. The only difference is that the Welsh Government provide funding directly and not via the Council funding for the Local services. However what it does do is increase the number of passengers using the "Trawscymru network" and allow the claim that passenger numbers are increasing on the Trawscymru long distance network, which is misleading if not incorrect .

That isn't something that you, and anyone, can say. It may well be that improved branding allied to increased journey opportunities have had a benefit? Indeed, as you yourself said...

The basic problem with any discussion on Trawscymru is the lack of published information on research on new routes, service reliability and passenger numbers. There is no way to measure success of the network without this information, which the Welsh Government are not publishing.

Would the passenger figures be available for the previous component parts that formed the T12?

The argument on the thread that Trawscymru long distance services can only be put in place where there is an existing bus service/passenger demand and on a route which does not compete with rail (for example T3) is also flawed.

The train network in Wales is totally inadequate. Public transport between major cities and towns is inadequate. Trawscymru long distance services are essential and should be direct services between the major cities and towns, fed by local bus services . This requires a major piece of research on traffic flows to determine where those routes are. It is not good enough to say there has been no demand or no routes there in the past.

And where Traws feeds rail, to complete the picture (yet it's specifically designed not to, or rather a design aimed at that was rejected)

Not certain that it's a black and white argument. Clearly there are TC services that do run in parallel with existing rail routes but often because whilst the train is providing the longer distance capability, the bus is providing local service provision. There's not too many instances of direct paralleling - the T3 and T12 follow bits of the Cambrian Main Line but with so few stations, it is clear the rail line not serving the local populace.

The T3 does parallel the train from Ruabon to Wrexham but clearly, the idea of terminating the T3 there and feeding into the rail network is tricky as the train times are not clockface and also north and south times are 30 mins apart (so as bad as you could get) and so it would be silly not to run through to Wrexham, and there's the added bonus of serving the hospital.

However, the bus is clearly aimed at providing some connectivity with rail. The T1 is specifically extended to Carmarthen, and the T5 extends to Haverfordwest, and there are plenty of other stations that are served. That is, at least, something (and ticks the integrating with rail - as on the website) but it would be desirable to have integrated ticketing. One little observation is the route diagram shows integration at Chepstow with rail on the T7 when really, it doesn't.

 

[markymark2000]

The Welsh Government only distinguish between Trawscymru and Trawscymru Connect by name. In publicity they refer to the success of the Trawscymru network. I have not seen any publicity about the success of Trawscymru Connect as a separate brand or comparative passenger figures before and after the rebranding of services as Trawscymru Connect.

Look

The T12 is a Traws Cymru route through and through. They just put 'Connect' on it because it takes 300 years to get anywhere.

Would the passenger figures be available for the previous component parts that formed the T12?

TrawsCymru may not release that information but all councils should hold passenger figures for their tendered services.

However, the bus is clearly aimed at providing some connectivity with rail. The T1 is specifically extended to Carmarthen, and the T5 extends to Haverfordwest, and there are plenty of other stations that are served. That is, at least, something (and ticks the integrating with rail - as on the website) but it would be desirable to have integrated ticketing. One little observation is the route diagram shows integration at Chepstow with rail on the T7 when really, it doesn't.

T10 to Bangor Rail Station when if it was run under a normal tender, it would terminate at the bus station.

Also, there is a half a**ed attempt at integrating the T19 and Ffestiniog line. There is meant to be some ticket acceptance in place here. Yet, TFW haven't put the bus on rail journey planners. They do have the T1/T5 buses in but somehow, the intermediate stops (Aberaeron and haven't made it through to other TOCs. You can't book the through tickets on LNER for example.

It seems, as per most things when it comes to Wales and transport. There is a good idea but then they mess up the execution of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, there is a half a**ed attempt at integrating the T19 and Ffestiniog line. There is meant to be some ticket acceptance in place here. Yet, TFW haven't put the bus on rail journey planners. They do have the T1/T5 buses in but somehow, the intermediate stops (Aberaeron and haven't made it through to other TOCs. You can't book the through tickets on LNER for example.

It seems, as per most things when it comes to Wales and transport. There is a good idea but then they mess up the execution of it.

My understanding was that the plan for the T19 was that the corridor (east side of the Conwy) would get one public transport service per hour. In one out of three hours it would be a train, in the other two it would be an electric bus, with tickets accepted both ways. This is made quite easy by the running times of both, unusually, being very similar.

While we often don't agree about how service should be structured, I too lack confidence that this will actually happen and we won't just effectively end up with a subsidised bus and a subsidised train effectively competing, the result of which not being passenger growth but rather increased subsidy.

 

[markymark2000]

My understanding was that the plan for the T19 was that the corridor (east side of the Conwy) would get one public transport service per hour. In one out of three hours it would be a train, in the other two it would be an electric bus, with tickets accepted both ways. This is made quite easy by the running times of both, unusually, being very similar.

While we often don't agree about how service should be structured, I too lack confidence that this will actually happen and we won't just effectively end up with a subsidised bus and a subsidised train effectively competing, the result of which not being passenger growth but rather increased subsidy.

From my experience, the passenger numbers don't justify. Certainly not south of Betws. Betws to Llandudno can carry a few and can hit 20-25 per trip but nothing to justify another bus.

This is one of the few instances where a full, combined bus and train timetable should be created and all online journey planners should show that as well as ticket acceptance noted. Huge opportunity. No one with the brains to do it properly though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is one of the few instances where a full, combined bus and train timetable should be created and all online journey planners should show that as well as ticket acceptance noted. Huge opportunity. No one with the brains to do it properly though.

Yep. I have suggested in the past that with Betws being so tourist heavy it might make sense looking at having most daytime trains only running as far as Betws. You could get to two hourly clockface then, which you could alternate with e.g. a Llandudno-Betws-Blaenau-Bala through bus service. Would make connecting with the Sherpas there better too.

The 197s to be fair provide an opportunity to fiddle with the train times a bit as the branch needn't be wholly self contained any more. There has been talk of a Liverpool or Manchester service running as 2x2 to the Junction then sending a portion down, for example, so there's lots of possibility there. A well timed Saturday and Sunday "tourist day out" train from one of the big North West cities to Betws with a bus to Llanberis and Pen y Pass stood there outside waiting for it would probably do quite well, at least as well as the branch ever does.

 

[Dai Corner]

From my experience, the passenger numbers don't justify. Certainly not south of Betws. Betws to Llandudno can carry a few and can hit 20-25 per trip but nothing to justify another bus.

This is one of the few instances where a full, combined bus and train timetable should be created and all online journey planners should show that as well as ticket acceptance noted. Huge opportunity. No one with the brains to do it properly though.

Welsh concessionary passholders do have ticket interavailability in that they get free travel on the Conwy Valley trains. Are they a large proportion of the ridership?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Welsh concessionary passholders do have ticket interavailability in that they get free travel on the Conwy Valley trains. Are they a large proportion of the ridership?

I think it's probably a split between those people and tourists plus some kids travelling without parents e.g. to the cinema at the Junction. Certainly Express Motors' X1 was abstracting enough trade from the railway that it was felt necessary to accept bus passes on the trains to avoid the "double subsidy" situation becoming too big. The T19 is more of a "gap filler" in the train times, though, even though both have a bitty timetable.

Those locals who have cars mostly drive them. The railway has a lovely "middle of nowhere" feel to it pretty much throughout, but in reality if you drive down the main road you can see that it's actually fairly well populated along the way as far as Betws at least, though it does become somewhat "middle of nowhere" after that.

 

[markymark2000]

Welsh concessionary passholders do have ticket interavailability in that they get free travel on the Conwy Valley trains. Are they a large proportion of the ridership?

There is normal ticket acceptance in place. It's just not really promoted other than this one page. Like.... Hardly anyone knows about the ticket acceptance.

Transport for Wales - medium to long distance bus travel in Wales

www.trawscymru.info

​

Integrated tickets with Transport for Wales Rail​

You can now travel to Aberystwyth via Carmarthen across Transport for Wales Rail services and TrawsCymru T1 & T5 buses, with one easy ticket for cheaper, faster travel. For more info visit Transport for Wales.

On the TrawsCymru T19 bus service in North Wales you can buy a day return bus ticket on the T19, get on a bus for your outward journey, but can then use the ticket on either the bus or the train for the return journey (and vice versa for train tickets).*
*1bws tickets not valid

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yep. I have suggested in the past that with Betws being so tourist heavy it might make sense looking at having most daytime trains only running as far as Betws. You could get to two hourly clockface then, which you could alternate with e.g. a Llandudno-Betws-Blaenau-Bala through bus service.

Two things... can you imagine the fury of both enthusiast fraternity and regular passengers/tourists if you stopped the ability to travel from the Conwy Valley Line onto the Ffestiniog, and also cutting off Blaenau during the day would not play well eitther.

Also, running to Bala is possibly even less justifiable as running the T10 to Corwen. It is properly bleak up there and Bala is not exactly a tourism hub.

 

[Llandudno]

There is normal ticket acceptance in place. It's just not really promoted other than this one page. Like.... Hardly anyone knows about the ticket acceptance.

Transport for Wales - medium to long distance bus travel in Wales

www.trawscymru.info

​

The key fact here is that the £6 1BWS ticket is not valid on the train, so effectively you have to buy a more expensive ticket for use on both bus and train..

 

[WAB]

Integrating the T19 and Conwy Valley timetables is a must, so whichever mode you look at, you can see the options. At the moment, looking at the bus timetable would give you the impression that it is a sporadic country bus, and looking at the railway timetable is little better, particularly for people planning a through journey.

Really, Traws is supposed to be the flagship bus services in rural Wales. If this can't be achieved on the Traws routes, then the rest of the country bus network in Wales has no hope.

 

[markymark2000]

The key fact here is that the £6 1BWS ticket is not valid on the train, so effectively you have to buy a more expensive ticket for use on both bus and train..

A T19 return from Llandudno Junction to Blaneau is £5.50 currently according to Traveline Cymru.

 

[WAB]

A T19 return from Llandudno Junction to Blaneau is £5.50 currently according to Traveline Cymru.

But not much use if you need to get a connecting bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A T19 return from Llandudno Junction to Blaneau is £5.50 currently according to Traveline Cymru.

£9.10 on the train. What are they playing at?

 

[markymark2000]

I fully agree it's not the best. As someone who really enjoys 1Bws, I would love to see it included but this is TFW. It goes back to my earlier point. Someone had a good thought about the integration but it's extremely poorly executed.

 

[Llandudno]

£9.10 on the train. What are they playing at?

So presumably:

A £5.50 Llandudno-Blaenau return bus ticket is not valid on the train
A £6 1BWS ticket is valid on the bus but not the train

So you have to buy a £9.10 train ticket to return on the bus, what ticket do you buy if you want to travel outward on the bus and return by train… and guessing that the bus driver can’t issue a £9.10 ticket…?

Bonkers considering the train service and bus route are both paid for by the Senedd…!

 

[Statto]

So presumably:

A £5.50 Llandudno-Blaenau return bus ticket is not valid on the train
A £6 1BWS ticket is valid on the bus but not the train

So you have to buy a £9.10 train ticket to return on the bus, what ticket do you buy if you want to travel outward on the bus and return by train… and guessing that the bus driver can’t issue a £9.10 ticket…?

Bonkers considering the train service and bus route are both paid for by the Senedd…!

Seems like it's a North Wales Day Ranger, it's not cheap either, £14.10 for 2 zones, £24 for 3 zones, then £38 for all zones, strangely there isn't one available for 1 zone.

North Wales Rover | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Map

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2018-10/North%20Wales%20Ranger%20LG_0.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

So presumably:

A £5.50 Llandudno-Blaenau return bus ticket is not valid on the train

The return half of it is.

A £6 1BWS ticket is valid on the bus but not the train

Correct.

So you have to buy a £9.10 train ticket to return on the bus, what ticket do you buy if you want to travel outward on the bus and return by train… and guessing that the bus driver can’t issue a £9.10 ticket…?

The £5.50 one.

Bonkers considering the train service and bus route are both paid for by the Senedd…!

Wales really needs to secede from the Rail Settlement Plan other than for journeys involving England and introduce a national joint tariff.

Thread to discuss that: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...national-joint-tariff-verkehrsverbund.236114/

I fully agree it's not the best. As someone who really enjoys 1Bws, I would love to see it included but this is TFW. It goes back to my earlier point. Someone had a good thought about the integration but it's extremely poorly executed.

1Bws should really be a 1Traws ticket, valid on all public transport.

 

[Llandudno]

The return half of it is.



Correct.



The £5.50 one.



Wales really needs to secede from the Rail Settlement Plan other than for journeys involving England and introduce a national joint tariff.



1Bws should really be a 1Traws ticket, valid on all public transport.

Ok then so:

Outward bus, return by train £5.50

Outward train, return by bus £9.10

Bonkers!

Mind you there is no marketing of the kind of ‘inter availability’ so no one knows about it in any case!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yep. I have suggested in the past that with Betws being so tourist heavy it might make sense looking at having most daytime trains only running as far as Betws. You could get to two hourly clockface then

Assuming you mean 2-hourly (every two hours) and not two services each running hourly (ie. 2 trains per hour) then you could run the trains clockface every two hours all the way to Blaenau Ffestiniog. It would require two units but, provided the passing loop at North Llanrwst is functional, there would not be a problem with single line occupation as far as I can see.

Ok then so:

Outward bus, return by train £5.50

Outward train, return by bus £9.10

Bonkers!

Given that the return leg of a rail journey is often given away almost for free than perhaps that isn't so odd. The GWR journey planner is giving me the option of £9.20 for an Anytime Day Single from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno or £9.30 for an Anytime Day Return. I don't see your £9.10 fare there at all...

 

[Dai Corner]

Assuming you mean 2-hourly (every two hours) and not two services each running hourly (ie. 2 trains per hour) then you could run the trains clockface every two hours all the way to Blaenau Ffestiniog. It would require two units but, provided the passing loop at North Llanrwst is functional, there would not be a problem with single line occupation as far as I can see.

Allocating two units and crews would double the costs, probably without doubling the revenue. Any additional revenue would likely be from former bus passengers.

Given that the return leg of a rail journey is often given away almost for free than perhaps that isn't so odd. The GWR journey planner is giving me the option of £9.20 for an Anytime Day Single from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno or £9.30 for an Anytime Day Return. I don't see your £9.10 fare there at all...

Obviously the sources quoted above are out of date.