TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.
Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.I wonder if the fact it’s quicker with a 91 might be down to it being a separate locomotive to the carriages, with the pantograph included in that locomotive.
What do you consider to be contingency? The line is blocked, multiple electric trains stranded and pantographs damaged and several miles of overhead line repairs needed.
Under such an extreme (and it is extreme) scenario you can’t ever run diesel trains until the stranded trains are evacuated (which they were after a few hours) & moved clear of the line (requiring multiple resucue locomotives or extreme methods of operation). Don’t think any contingency plan can deal with this; it is a full 4 line block with trains to trmknwte at Reading and SWR services from there and a shuttle as far as is possible (which appears to be West Drayton).
Simply unable to see or accept how it is incompetence; hundreds of people are directly working flat-out to get this resolved.
You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.Debatable, surely?
There's ticket acceptance on Chiltern/SWR/XC and others, and Reading/Oxford are termini for GWR to terminate and onwards to London via other TOCs. There's significant crowd control and barriers at Reading, but it's actually pretty quiet and free flowing.
Trains to the west are departing Reading.
Seems like a pretty good contingency plan, working as well as it can given the circumstances.
ECML too!I hope this incident gives Network Rail the impetus to replace the headspans remaining between Padd and Airport Jn ASAP.
It's both the speed and the cheap poor quality wires on the ECML and that short part of the GWML.It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.
This incident just shows how shockingly incompetent Network Rail are. I can’t believe that several miles of overhead lines would suddenly collapse with no warning, why isn’t the infrastructure being checked in a regular basis?
I hope this incident gives Network Rail the impetus to replace the headspans remaining between Padd and Airport Jn ASAP.
I thought they'd planned to do this, but obviously they haven't completed the upgrade.
When the line was first electrified, it was just HEX units using the wires. But with the intro of IETs, 387s and, more recently, Lizzie Line units, it's used much more intensively now.
Ideally, the removal of headspans should've happened before the Lizzie Line opened, so as to provide separate independent wiring and structures for the main lines and the reliefs.
To be honest, the ideal route from here (Cardiff) to London today would have been to take XC to Birmingham for dare-I-suggest-it Avanti to London today. Who’d have thought Avanti would be the best bet.You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.
As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.
Please clarify further for me why it takes days to repair a simple structure of a pole and a wire?
It is not a laughing matter, it has disrupted thousands of people and probably cost millions in compensation and lost time
I love how some people here are very quick to defend what would be considered in any other industry to be incompetence - whatever the contingency was for today it clearly hasn't worked, and for the fare paying customer it simply isn't good enough.
It happens very frequently on the GEMLIt always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.
Does it? Thanks for clarifying. How funny that it never seems to get as much attention; it must be due to the bigger significance of the InterCity routes.It happens very frequently on the GEML
That's just not true.With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London
This incident just shows how shockingly incompetent Network Rail are. I can’t believe that several miles of overhead lines would suddenly collapse with no warning, why isn’t the infrastructure being checked on a regular basis?
When a pantograph strikes even the smallest or object and then gets a piece of that overhead equipment tangled up, a large distance of wire is going to be pulled down .Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.
You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a team to be on standby in the London area to deal with such incidents as soon as they happen, and for the provisions to be in place to allow a relatively quick (within a few hours) rescue of all the stranded electrics. Admittedly not for this incident, but there have been occasions where they've needed to bring teams down from Edinburgh to sort out disruption in the South East. There should be the staff and equipment already in the South East to deal with it. Yes it costs money, but it's part of running the railway, it shouldn't be seen as an optional extra that can be cut out when the DFT reduce the budget.
As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.
ECML too!
It's both the speed and the cheap poor quality wires on the ECML and that short part of the GWML.
Because what ever caused the damage may of just occurred prior to the culprit train striking it.This in spades, earlier posts have suggested there was already damage.
Why wasn't this caught? What do NR intend to do in the future to prevent this from occuring again.
When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.That's just not true.
Realtime Trains | Departures from Reading between 1200 and 1900 on 19/09/2022
Train information at Reading between 1200 and 1900 on 19/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.
You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a team to be on standby in the London area to deal with such incidents as soon as they happen, and for the provisions to be in place to allow a relatively quick (within a few hours) rescue of all the stranded electrics. Admittedly not for this incident, but there have been occasions where they've needed to bring teams down from Edinburgh to sort out disruption in the South East. There should be the staff and equipment already in the South East to deal with it. Yes it costs money, but it's part of running the railway, it shouldn't be seen as an optional extra that can be cut out when the DFT reduce the budget.
As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.
Why can’t you just accept what you’ve been told?
Which equivalent processes in which other industries are you comparing with? Or is this just yet another self important rant based on no knowledge whatsoever? I’m going with the latter…
When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.
I know that nothing can be done, I’m just saying that @DanNCL was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.But else realistically is the option? The key word is alternative. Of course it isn’t ideal but it’s an extraordinary circumstance. You can’t control how the geography of other routes works.
Ideally you could ask SWR to run fast Reading - Waterloo and run extra trains (to their credit they’ve mustered up a few) but that would disrupt all their normal operations and / or not be possible due to their routes and other services.
Because nobody has actually answered his question with an explanation that isn't effectively "that's how it is".Why can’t you just accept what you’ve been told?
The Airline industry for one, which I am familar with. At least with British Airways which I have quite a lot of knowledge about the internal workings of, there would *always* be a plan ready to put in place and the contingency staff available to keep people moving on the busiest routes even when one of the airports had to shut.Which equivalent processes in which other industries are you comparing with? Or is this just yet another self important rant based on no knowledge whatsoever? I’m going with the latter…
It was shut for long enough to cause even more major disruption than what was already happening.It wasn’t “down the pan”; it was blocked for an hour or so with some residual impacts due to the procession and expected issues. Yes they were very busy trains but that was to be expected with such demand today. As I said above, it is very very unfortunate. It’s a longer journey but still you can go Cardiff - Reading - Waterloo or even Reading - Oxford - Marylebone. There are alternatives although obviously less then ideal.
I can think of one such recent incident on the Tyne & Wear Metro. But that has the advantage of having it's own dedicated teams to deal with any incident that may happen, and all of the trains being compatible with each other making rescue easier.There have certainly been standby staff (and other resources) available for disruption. That being said OLE work is still very specialised and I am not aware of a scene of so many stranded units in recent years; I certainly don’t think it’s happen since TfL / Elizabeth line has been running.
Exactly!If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement
Hyperbole alert! 15 to 30 mins delay on almost all trains via Staines? Other than the odd additional that was PINEd at Ascot, nothing has been that delayed on the up Reading service.When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.
If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement
I know that nothing can be done, I’m just saying that @DanNCL was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.
If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement
It's not rocket science, the OLE is literally metal posts with a bit of wire attached.
I say things as they appear from the perspective of a passenger, and that often isn't a good thing for the railway.
The Airline industry for one, which I am familar with. At least with British Airways which I have quite a lot of knowledge about the internal workings of, there would *always* be a plan ready to put in place and the contingency staff available to keep people moving on the busiest routes even when one of the airports had to shut.
I take the point, but I do think that's hyperbole - there are trains from Reading to Waterloo and Oxford to London Marylebone, amongst others. They are diversionary routes which you wouldn't ordinarily take as they are slow stopping services, but they are running trains and conveying people.was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.
I take the point, but I do think that's hyperbole - there are trains from Reading to Waterloo and Oxford to London Marylebone, amongst others. They are diversionary routes which you wouldn't ordinarily take as they are slow stopping services, but they are running trains and conveying people.
I'm not sure what alternatives there are when the GWML is blocked, other than to divert people via the diversionary routes? I guess GWR could just say "line is closed, tough find your own way", but then they'd be criticised for doing that!
It might not be ideal, or "good", but people are at least getting to their destinations albeit with great delay, in a time of significant perturbation.
Certainly something to review after the event, but as someone whose train was delayed and subsequently cancelled short, and who managed to get to my destination via the ticket acceptance routes, I don't feel too aggrieved.
It happens very frequently on the GEML
Please clarify further for me why it takes days to repair a simple structure of a pole and a wire?
I'm capable of looking at situations from the view of "the typical passenger" and regularly do when it comes to these situations.I don’t think someone who makes comments like yours represents the typical passenger.
Not anymore, and their policy may well have changed since my time there.Do you work in the airline industry?
A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure. If an entire airport had to be closed for a long period chaos would ensue, with people likely ending stranded for long periods. No amount of contingency planning can get around things going wrong occasionally.
Fantastic!It appears as though they’ll be able to enact a full repair tonight through an extended possession although this will almost certainly extend into the morning services.
The set is stuck at Paddington.GWR have cancelled Sleeper's tonight in both directions. Fail to see why they can't operate to /from Reading ?
It’s been clearly explained to you by people who know what they’re talking about that it isn’t just as simple as:
Which I would have thought would be so obvious as to not need pointing out. Why do you refuse to accept that and continue to demand explanations?
I don’t think someone who makes comments like yours represents the typical passenger.
Do you work in the airline industry?
A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure. If an entire airport had to be closed for a long period chaos would ensue, with people likely ending stranded for long periods. No amount of contingency planning can get around things going wrong occasionally.