Possible disruption 19th September?

[800001]

GWR have cancelled Sleeper's tonight in both directions. Fail to see why they can't operate to /from Reading ?

Because last nights set was still at Paddington in the last couple of hours.

 

[Horizon22]

Not anymore, and their policy may well have changed since my time there.

Taking the example of BA's domestic flights to/from Newcastle, the first contingency was to divert to Teesside and have a coach transfer in place. Not ideal but it worked. If for whatever reason that wasn't doable, out came the corporate credit card and LNER did quite well out of it!

Which makes me wonder what you find unacceptable about the railway’s contingencies? Your airway one require coach transfers and diversions; the railway relies on alternative routes, coach (bus) transfers and diversions…

Fantastic!

Which if true (and successful) repairs over a complex, 4 line dewirement of extends distance would be a considerable feat, so props to the Network Rail staff if it can be pulled off in a timely manner.

 

[DanNCL]

Which makes me wonder what you find unacceptable about the railway’s contingencies? Your airway one require coach transfers and diversions; the railway relies on alternative routes, coach (bus) transfers and diversions…

The railway has had one diversion that shut down for part of the day, and no replacement buses. Not really comparable.

I would love to see a single example of a TOC getting out the corporate credit card in the same way the BA have done many times for their UK domestic customers.

Which if true (and successful) repairs over a complex, 4 line dewirement of extends distance would be a considerable feat, so props to the Network Rail staff if it can be pulled off in a timely manner.

Absolutely.

 

[Sleepy]

It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.

Bizarre I know but over a mile of wires came down between Manningtree and Ipswich last Thursday lunchtime after a disagreement with a 12 car 321 and the line was closed all day Friday.

 

[43066]

That is not a question the person you are responding to should have to answer on a public forum.

It’s up to him if he answers. He isn’t required to!

Not anymore, and their policy may well have changed since my time there.

Taking the example of BA's domestic flights to/from Newcastle, the first contingency was to divert to Teesside and have a coach transfer in place. Not ideal but it worked. If for whatever reason that wasn't doable, out came the corporate credit card and LNER did quite well out of it!

Fair enough. We are of course dealing with larger numbers of people dispersed all across the network, included stranded trains etc. which is logistically quite different from getting a few hundred max at NCL(?) BA passengers from one airport to another

It actually sounds like they’ve made fairly decent fist of recovering from what happened today via ticket acceptance etc.

Incidents like this is why I drive....
I don't have much trust in the railway anymore

Well there’s nothing for you to worry about then!

 

[800001]

The railway has had one diversion that shut down for part of the day, and no replacement buses. Not really comparable.

I would love to see a single example of a TOC getting out the corporate credit card in the same way the BA have done many times for their UK domestic customers.


Absolutely.

In what way would you think a TOC would get corporate card out today? How would that help?

Don’t quite see how that has a relevance to railway

 

[Horizon22]

No one has explained to me exactly why it takes so long.
All I've heard basically is very basic explanations, which sound more like NR incompetence for not having the right resources in the right places and no contingency.

If someone would like to explain to me in more detail exactly what makes it more difficult than just re attaching wire to a pole please feel free.
Illustrated diagrams might be helpful as well.

You are asking for a lot from a volunteer rail forum. There might be an OLE engineer here or someone with experience who can assist but don’t count on it.

Others have give you some insight into why it is technical, complex work and the other issues that must be resolved (currently retrieving stranded stock which seems nearly complete). A major dewirements is one of the biggest disruptions any TOC or NR will ever have to deal with. Once again people are volunteers on this forum and can share what they know, if they wish. Although I can understand why they might not if they are shouted down by people who think they know better and keep referring to “NR incompetence”.

 

[cactustwirly]

No it doesn't. A full dewirement is rare. We had one last week and that's the first big one I remember for years. We get a fairly normal amount of dropper issues and stuff tangled in them. But a full job stopper is rare.



Because it's not simple.

The wire itself is more like a thick solid cable with an almost T shape profile. A headspan structure is horizontal cable under tension hanging from a suspension cable which then has the multiple contact wires under tension travelling parallel to the while arrangement. Its also got registration arms and heavy ceramic insulators suspended within it. That whole structure has to be tensioned in the right way to push the contact wires down enough to make good contact while allowing the pans to push back up, and holding themselves up, and put up with the forces of the pans underneath, often multiple at once pushing in different directions. Then the contact wires have to be tensioned as well.

And if these quotes of multiple miles of damage then there will be hundreds of those that'll need checking and repairing.

Thanks for the explanation it's making more sense now.

So if the headspans were replaced by solid structures then incidents like this would be much faster to fix?

 

[45669]

Thanks for the explanation it's making more sense now.

So if the headspans were replaced by solid structures then incidents like this would be much faster to fix?

Would it be true to say that incidents like this are less likely to happen with solid structures?

 

[Starmill]

I see that it has been hinted at above but just for the avoidence of doubt there actually are a number of additional SWR services this afternoon between Reading and London Waterloo to support diverted GWR passengers. 1535, 1635, 1805, 1835, 1905, 1943 from London Waterloo and various return services. Most of these are not calling at the usual intermediate stops for Reading services, some are running with just one stop or no stops.

 

[43066]

You are asking for a lot from a volunteer rail forum. There might be an OLE engineer here or someone with experience who can assist but don’t count on it.

Others have give you some insight into why it is technical, complex work and the other issues that must be resolved (currently retrieving stranded stock which seems nearly complete). A major dewirements is one of the biggest disruptions any TOC or NR will ever have to deal with. Once again people are volunteers on this forum and can share what they know, if they wish. Although I can understand why they might not if they are shouted down by people who think they know better and keep referring to “NR incompetence”.

I quite agree.

@cactustwirly might consider having a search on YouTube. There are quite a view videos with explanations of delays caused by overhead line equipment, including some by NR eg.

 

[DanNCL]

Fair enough. We are of course dealing with larger numbers of people dispersed all across the network, included stranded trains etc. which is logistically quite different from getting a few hundred max at NCL(?) BA passengers from one airport to another

It actually sounds like they’ve made fairly decent fist of recovering from what happened today via ticket acceptance etc.

Between 143 and 220 per flight depending on aircraft type, but there could easily be 5 or 6 flights affected (more than that for Edinburgh), so in excess of 1000 passengers each way. Definitely a smaller affair than the railway but not by any means a small one either.

In what way would you think a TOC would get corporate card out today? How would that help?

Don’t quite see how that has a relevance to railway

Coaches for a start. If they can't hire RRBs in, get out the corporate card to pay for customers to go on the likes of National Express, Megabus or Flix Bus. For Bristol and Cardiff today that would have been the quickest way of getting people to their destination. On other routes, very specifically thinking of the ECML here, paying other TOCs when ticket acceptance is refused.

 

[800001]

Between 143 and 220 per flight depending on aircraft type, but there could easily be 5 or 6 flights affected (more than that for Edinburgh), so in excess of 1000 passengers each way. Definitely a smaller affair than the railway but not by any means a small one either.


Coaches for a start. If they can't hire RRBs in, get out the corporate card to pay for customers to go on the likes of National Express, Megabus or Flix Bus. For Bristol and Cardiff today that would have been the quickest way of getting people to their destination. On other routes, very specifically thinking of the ECML here, paying other TOCs when ticket acceptance is refused.

Buses which at that time of day, today of all days will of been booked.

Believe it not, in disruption, one of the first things TOCS do is try to arrange coaches.

 

[DanNCL]

Buses which at that time of day, today of all days will of been booked.

Believe it not, in disruption, one of the first things TOCS do is try to arrange coaches.

Not sure about down south but there’s very rarely not availability on a National Express between Newcastle and London, even on the day.

Not disputing that the TOCs try to arrange RRBs first and indeed that would be preferable to getting the corporate card out for a Megabus.

 

[Darandio]

So if the headspans were replaced by solid structures then incidents like this would be much faster to fix?

Potentially yes but there's no guarantee, again it all depends on what situation has developed.

Many people outside of the industry also see something like contact wire as a flexible and lightweight piece of material, something akin to heavier duty wire they use in a cooker for example. It does indeed look that way as it hangs between arms and sways as a train passes but it's anything but, it's a solid and heavy piece of metal that would surprise many if they held a chunk of it. A short length of that being brought down at speed can cause major damage to the infrastructure in the surrounding environment, even if it leaves the other parts of the OHLE relatively untouched.

 

[30907]

When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.

1x 30min, 3 other of 15+, over a 2 hour period in the down direction only, caused by a security issue related to a certain funeral. As there are 2tph each way (without the extras laid on), that is nowhere near "almost all."
Is it exceptionally pernickety to say that you have grossly exaggerated?

Edit at 21.30 - oh, there seems to have been another problem this evening f9r about an hour, with delays up to 45min.

 

[800001]

Not sure about down south but there’s very rarely not availability on a National Express between Newcastle and London, even on the day.

Not disputing that the TOCs try to arrange RRBs first and indeed that would be preferable to getting the corporate card out for a Megabus.

Could get loose change out of someone’s pocket for a megabus

 

[DanNCL]

Could get loose change out of someone’s pocket for a megabus

I might be quick to criticise staff for not doing enough but even I wouldn't expect them to pay for customers to go by Megabus out of their own pocket

 

[Ashley Hill]

In BR times it was all diesel stock in and out Paddington; now it is zero.

Er,bi-modes,57s and occasional turbo?

 

[800001]

I might be quick to criticise staff for not doing enough but even I wouldn't expect them to pay for customers to go by Megabus out of their own pocket

Done it once, the smell is still with me now

 

[43066]

I might be quick to criticise staff for not doing enough but even I wouldn't expect them to pay for customers to go by Megabus out of their own pocket

There are actually staff on here who have driven passengers home themselves during disruption (I’m not one of them!)!

 

[Horizon22]

Coaches for a start. If they can't hire RRBs in, get out the corporate card to pay for customers to go on the likes of National Express, Megabus or Flix Bus. For Bristol and Cardiff today that would have been the quickest way of getting people to their destination. On other routes, very specifically thinking of the ECML here, paying other TOCs when ticket acceptance is refused.

Since Covid began there have been reasonably well advertised (on these forums anyway) issues with getting replacement road transport at short notice - and planned - due to a shortage of drivers. You do make a fair comment about NatEx or Megabus but who is to say they have spare seats? You might be talking about just tens of people. Even if transport was available and mustered, a) this could take hours to arrive, b) a coach only holds so many people and c) the journey time by road is extended and has to divert towards stations. This is not to say TOCs don’t try - in fact it’s one of the first calls for longer journeys or taxis where needed. Always better to get people as close as possible to destination by rail. For GWR this is possible through other operators and the London Underground at the end.

I’d suggest it is substantially quicker still to be diverted or head to Reading and take an alternative route which are available and staff are well versed in them to assist people best possible.

You do of course get issues with platform capacity at Reading with terminating trains but this is a scheduled contingency for this as agreed by all operators.

Er,bi-modes,57s and occasional turbo?

I meant to say practically zero and I was talking about pure diesel. You’ve got the sleeper and 2 booked turbo moves and even those are purely for convenience to get the Greenford stock in and out.

This is all moot until the line is safe - dangling wires might not even be safe for any form of traction.

I absolutely get why people would be so frustrated; it’s a major inconvenience. But to explain why things are happening is not the same as excuses.

 

[Taunton]

There are no trains on the Elizabeth Line between Paddington and Heathrow Airport/Reading due to the overhead being faulty at Hayes and Harlington. What a day for this to happen!

The Jubilee Line, which was the principal service along The Queue to view the Lying-in-State, from the start by Southwark to the end at Westminster, had a signals breakdown at Canary Wharf yesterday afternoon, Sunday 18th, the last day, and large numbers had to fend for themselves via alternatives.

 

[bramling]

It’s up to him if he answers. He isn’t required to!



Fair enough. We are of course dealing with larger numbers of people dispersed all across the network, included stranded trains etc. which is logistically quite different from getting a few hundred max at NCL(?) BA passengers from one airport to another

It actually sounds like they’ve made fairly decent fist of recovering from what happened today via ticket acceptance etc.



Well there’s nothing for you to worry about then!

It is always rather disheartening when the railway screws up, especially on a high-profile occasion.

Realistically when one chooses to travel by train, there is always going to be the risk that something can go wrong, just as it can on the roads (I was stuck for two hours on a dual carriageway in Wales a couple of months back due to an accident ahead). However the flip side to this is that these sort of “meltdown” days do seem to be becoming more frequent, and more disruptive when they do, which considering there’s generally still a reduction in the number of services running compared to 2019 doesn’t bode too well.

Most reasonable people will take the odd day on the chin, but things do wear thin when every journey seems to experience some level of problem, which has been my own experience in GTRland for some time now!

 

[Jim]

The amount of RRS that would be required to even make a feasible difference to most journeys today is unthinkable too, let alone probably unobtainable!

 

[The Prisoner]

I might be sounding a bit thick or simplistic, but couldn't GWR have run queue buster shuttles from Paddington to Reading via South Ruislip, Oxford and Didcot? And sent the sleeper that way too with a reverse at Reading?

Someone is going to tell me that the crew don't sign that route or that there weren't enough units, but I'm going to guess there must have been at least 10 IETs trapped Paddington side of this? And surely there has to be contingency for such a disaster scenario?

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m not sure how the SWR route was shut “for half the day”, Datchet level crossing was closed to rail traffic for about an hour, this caused delays of up to 30 minutes to Reading services, that is hardly down the pan.

It looks like SWR were actually cancelling other suburban services to provide stock and crew for additional Reading services, that on top of the additional Windsor services. It doesn’t look ideal, but there was definitely an effort.

 

[Jim]

I might be sounding a bit thick or simplistic, but couldn't GWR have run queue buster shuttles from Paddington to Reading via South Ruislip, Oxford and Didcot? And sent the sleeper that way too with a reverse at Reading?

Someone is going to tell me that the crew don't sign that route or that there weren't enough units, but I'm going to guess there must have been at least 10 IETs trapped Paddington side of this? And surely there has to be contingency for such a disaster scenario?

Not a single GWR driver signs the diversions of those routes (and never did, they were piloted by FLHH before), and I very much doubt you could find many FLHH drivers available today (not saying it would have been impossible but would like to have think it would have been tried. I also think the locations of the stranded trains would have meant it would've been no help for at least the start anyway.

I also don't think there is any paperwork for IETs via Bicester, but am happy to be proven wrong.

 

[43066]

It is always rather disheartening when the railway screws up, especially on a high-profile occasion.

Realistically when one chooses to travel by train, there is always going to be the risk that something can go wrong, just as it can on the roads (I was stuck for two hours on a dual carriageway in Wales a couple of months back due to an accident ahead). However the flip side to this is that these sort of “meltdown” days do seem to be becoming more frequent, and more disruptive when they do, which considering there’s generally still a reduction in the number of services running compared to 2019 doesn’t bode too well.

Most reasonable people will take the odd day on the chin, but things do wear thin when every journey seems to experience some level of problem, which has been my own experience in GTRland for some time now!

Agreed. Of course the issues with GTR go to the design of the network, its reliance on the core and ability to be affected by (and to spread) delays from what were previously discrete areas. It’s difficult to really see how these issues can be addressed other than through a simplification.

Significant disruption does seem to be getting more frequent which I agree is worrying. I suppose we’ve had a run of genuinely extreme weather events in fairly quick succession from the Lewisham strandings a couple of years ago, flooding/Stonehaven, the storms last year and the extreme heat this year.

 

[Essexman]

There are actually staff on here who have driven passengers home themselves during disruption (I’m not one of them!)!

I was once given a lift from Exeter to Torquay by a member of the sleeper staff (on his way to Paignton) when it terminated at Exeter due to very rough seas at Dawlish.