Possible disruption 19th September?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.

 

[DanNCL]

I wonder if the fact it’s quicker with a 91 might be down to it being a separate locomotive to the carriages, with the pantograph included in that locomotive.

Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.

What do you consider to be contingency? The line is blocked, multiple electric trains stranded and pantographs damaged and several miles of overhead line repairs needed.

Under such an extreme (and it is extreme) scenario you can’t ever run diesel trains until the stranded trains are evacuated (which they were after a few hours) & moved clear of the line (requiring multiple resucue locomotives or extreme methods of operation). Don’t think any contingency plan can deal with this; it is a full 4 line block with trains to trmknwte at Reading and SWR services from there and a shuttle as far as is possible (which appears to be West Drayton).

Simply unable to see or accept how it is incompetence; hundreds of people are directly working flat-out to get this resolved.

Debatable, surely?

There's ticket acceptance on Chiltern/SWR/XC and others, and Reading/Oxford are termini for GWR to terminate and onwards to London via other TOCs. There's significant crowd control and barriers at Reading, but it's actually pretty quiet and free flowing.

Trains to the west are departing Reading.

Seems like a pretty good contingency plan, working as well as it can given the circumstances.

You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a team to be on standby in the London area to deal with such incidents as soon as they happen, and for the provisions to be in place to allow a relatively quick (within a few hours) rescue of all the stranded electrics. Admittedly not for this incident, but there have been occasions where they've needed to bring teams down from Edinburgh to sort out disruption in the South East. There should be the staff and equipment already in the South East to deal with it. Yes it costs money, but it's part of running the railway, it shouldn't be seen as an optional extra that can be cut out when the DFT reduce the budget.

As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.

I hope this incident gives Network Rail the impetus to replace the headspans remaining between Padd and Airport Jn ASAP.

ECML too!

It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.

It's both the speed and the cheap poor quality wires on the ECML and that short part of the GWML.

 

[Darandio]

This incident just shows how shockingly incompetent Network Rail are. I can’t believe that several miles of overhead lines would suddenly collapse with no warning, why isn’t the infrastructure being checked in a regular basis?

Seems we've indeed entered full troll mode now.

 

[Horizon22]

I hope this incident gives Network Rail the impetus to replace the headspans remaining between Padd and Airport Jn ASAP.

I thought they'd planned to do this, but obviously they haven't completed the upgrade.

When the line was first electrified, it was just HEX units using the wires. But with the intro of IETs, 387s and, more recently, Lizzie Line units, it's used much more intensively now.

Ideally, the removal of headspans should've happened before the Lizzie Line opened, so as to provide separate independent wiring and structures for the main lines and the reliefs.

I don’t think the headspans are in a terrible state and there certainly haven’t been as many dewirements as there have been on the ECML. There was a big one a couple of years ago at West Ealing during a possession on the relief lines at the same time. I think it was about 24-48 hrs to repair but obviously 2/4 lines were available.

But as you say, now it’s fully electric it might provide some impetus especially with a more intensive Elizabeth line service. which will be serving C. London directly soon.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.

To be honest, the ideal route from here (Cardiff) to London today would have been to take XC to Birmingham for dare-I-suggest-it Avanti to London today. Who’d have thought Avanti would be the best bet.

 

[Darandio]

As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.

It entirely depends on what has happened. A pantograph getting tangled at 120+mph can bring 2km of cable down very easily before the train comes to a stand. That's neither poor maintenance or equipment not being fit for purpose.

 

[43066]

Please clarify further for me why it takes days to repair a simple structure of a pole and a wire?

It is not a laughing matter, it has disrupted thousands of people and probably cost millions in compensation and lost time

Why can’t you just accept what you’ve been told?

I love how some people here are very quick to defend what would be considered in any other industry to be incompetence - whatever the contingency was for today it clearly hasn't worked, and for the fare paying customer it simply isn't good enough.

Which equivalent processes in which other industries are you comparing with? Or is this just yet another self important rant based on no knowledge whatsoever? I’m going with the latter…

 

[800001]

It always seems to be the high speed lines doesn’t it? You never hear of the GEML/WAML/LTSE wires falling, or on secondary lines further north. Part of me wonders if speed is a big factor. It probably is.

It happens very frequently on the GEML

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Worth noting as well that the Acton-Airport Jn section of the GWML is an almost continuous series of junctions and crossovers, much of which is fully electrified. So two miles of damaged OLE may not be just 4 plain lines.

It's noticeable on this forum that when disruption occurs, some individuals immediately assume
A) the solution is the easiest/ best case scenario possible
b) therefore anything short of IMMEDIATE rectification and restored service is clearly due to the sheer incompetence and idiocy of the modern railway

I know we've 'had enough of experts' as a society, but railway engineering (and particularly OLE!) does not lend itself to the armchair amateur.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It happens very frequently on the GEML

Does it? Thanks for clarifying. How funny that it never seems to get as much attention; it must be due to the bigger significance of the InterCity routes.

 

[crablab]

With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London

That's just not true.

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[cactustwirly]

This incident just shows how shockingly incompetent Network Rail are. I can’t believe that several miles of overhead lines would suddenly collapse with no warning, why isn’t the infrastructure being checked on a regular basis?

This in spades, earlier posts have suggested there was already damage.
Why wasn't this caught? What do NR intend to do in the future to prevent this from occuring again.

 

[800001]

Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.



You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a team to be on standby in the London area to deal with such incidents as soon as they happen, and for the provisions to be in place to allow a relatively quick (within a few hours) rescue of all the stranded electrics. Admittedly not for this incident, but there have been occasions where they've needed to bring teams down from Edinburgh to sort out disruption in the South East. There should be the staff and equipment already in the South East to deal with it. Yes it costs money, but it's part of running the railway, it shouldn't be seen as an optional extra that can be cut out when the DFT reduce the budget.

As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.


ECML too!


It's both the speed and the cheap poor quality wires on the ECML and that short part of the GWML.

When a pantograph strikes even the smallest or object and then gets a piece of that overhead equipment tangled up, a large distance of wire is going to be pulled down .

2 miles of wires did not just fall down, they got pulled down in the entanglement.

This in spades, earlier posts have suggested there was already damage.
Why wasn't this caught? What do NR intend to do in the future to prevent this from occuring again.

Because what ever caused the damage may of just occurred prior to the culprit train striking it.

If the power is still flowing through the OHL then no one really knows there’s damage until the train hits it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's just not true.

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When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.

 

[Horizon22]

Or as I mentioned in my original post it could have been entirely coincidental. But my thinking was on the lines of Hitachi requiring one of their staff memebers to inspect the unit before it can be moved.

You need a contingency to make sure that the passengers can still get where they're going. With the route via Staines also down the pan this afternoon, there has been nothing between Reading and London, and no buses either. If you're travelling between London and Bristol or Cardiff you've basically been stuffed.

It wasn’t “down the pan”; it was blocked for an hour or so with some residual impacts due to the procession and expected issues. Yes they were very busy trains but that was to be expected with such demand today. As I said above, it is very very unfortunate. It’s a longer journey but still you can go Cardiff - Reading - Waterloo or even Reading - Oxford - Marylebone. There are alternatives although obviously less then ideal.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a team to be on standby in the London area to deal with such incidents as soon as they happen, and for the provisions to be in place to allow a relatively quick (within a few hours) rescue of all the stranded electrics. Admittedly not for this incident, but there have been occasions where they've needed to bring teams down from Edinburgh to sort out disruption in the South East. There should be the staff and equipment already in the South East to deal with it. Yes it costs money, but it's part of running the railway, it shouldn't be seen as an optional extra that can be cut out when the DFT reduce the budget.

There have certainly been standby staff (and other resources) available for disruption. That being said OLE work is still very specialised and I am not aware of a scene of so many stranded units in recent years; I certainly don’t think it’s happen since TfL / Elizabeth line has been running.

As another poster has just said, one also has to wonder how such a length of OHLE would just collapse with a train taking out a single headspan. If a pantograph striking one headspan is really capable of causing that much damage without any other underlying causes such as poor maintenance then either the train or the OHLE aren't fit for purpose. And if it were poor maintenance, that would also be incompetence.

I am sure there will be (and indeed probably already is) a large investigation to the incident to consider root cause. Lots of question marks at this time.

 

[cactustwirly]

Why can’t you just accept what you’ve been told?



Which equivalent processes in which other industries are you comparing with? Or is this just yet another self important rant based on no knowledge whatsoever? I’m going with the latter…

If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement

 

[Horizon22]

When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.

But else realistically is the option? The key word is alternative. Of course it isn’t ideal but it’s an extraordinary circumstance. You can’t control how the geography of other routes works.

Ideally you could ask SWR to run fast Reading - Waterloo and run extra trains (to their credit they’ve mustered up a few) but that would disrupt all their normal operations and / or not be possible due to their routes and other services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But else realistically is the option? The key word is alternative. Of course it isn’t ideal but it’s an extraordinary circumstance. You can’t control how the geography of other routes works.

Ideally you could ask SWR to run fast Reading - Waterloo and run extra trains (to their credit they’ve mustered up a few) but that would disrupt all their normal operations and / or not be possible due to their routes and other services.

I know that nothing can be done, I’m just saying that @DanNCL was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.

 

[DanNCL]

Why can’t you just accept what you’ve been told?

Because nobody has actually answered his question with an explanation that isn't effectively "that's how it is".

Which equivalent processes in which other industries are you comparing with? Or is this just yet another self important rant based on no knowledge whatsoever? I’m going with the latter…

The Airline industry for one, which I am familar with. At least with British Airways which I have quite a lot of knowledge about the internal workings of, there would *always* be a plan ready to put in place and the contingency staff available to keep people moving on the busiest routes even when one of the airports had to shut.

Go with whatever you want, I really couldn't care less if you think I make "self important rants". I say things as they appear from the perspective of a passenger, and that often isn't a good thing for the railway.

It wasn’t “down the pan”; it was blocked for an hour or so with some residual impacts due to the procession and expected issues. Yes they were very busy trains but that was to be expected with such demand today. As I said above, it is very very unfortunate. It’s a longer journey but still you can go Cardiff - Reading - Waterloo or even Reading - Oxford - Marylebone. There are alternatives although obviously less then ideal.

It was shut for long enough to cause even more major disruption than what was already happening.

There have certainly been standby staff (and other resources) available for disruption. That being said OLE work is still very specialised and I am not aware of a scene of so many stranded units in recent years; I certainly don’t think it’s happen since TfL / Elizabeth line has been running.

I can think of one such recent incident on the Tyne & Wear Metro. But that has the advantage of having it's own dedicated teams to deal with any incident that may happen, and all of the trains being compatible with each other making rescue easier.

If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement

Exactly!

 

[43096]

When the diverted route is over four times as slow, the fifteen to thirty minute delays on almost all services via Staines today is as good as insulting to customers (even if not acknowledged), so while an exceptionally pernickerty person could say - yes there was something between Reading and London - it was a journey of about two hours, rather than twenty minutes. For roughly the same distance.

Hyperbole alert! 15 to 30 mins delay on almost all trains via Staines? Other than the odd additional that was PINEd at Ascot, nothing has been that delayed on the up Reading service.

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[Horizon22]

If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement

Sure. But perhaps those with the experience, knowledge and skill sets are already considering these things. Don’t think that everyone thinks all things are perfect and wonderful when it comes to disruption management; there are those who will be constructively critical when the time calls for it.

But right now it is an ongoing incident and focus should rightly be on resolving it as safely and as quickly as is possible and within the realms of feasibility - something some posters don’t appear to grasp; the railway / GWR / NR / Elizabeth Line must work with what resources they have available or are able to secure at short notice.

I know that nothing can be done, I’m just saying that @DanNCL was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.

Which hasn’t really added much and is stating the obvious. There ARE ways to get between London and Reading, even if it convoluted.

People want to know how to get from A-B. They can be told what it is normal times and what it is in disrupted times.

 

[43066]

If people just accepted things, then nothing would change and poor service would continue.
There is always room for improvement

It’s been clearly explained to you by people who know what they’re talking about that it isn’t just as simple as:

It's not rocket science, the OLE is literally metal posts with a bit of wire attached.

Which I would have thought would be so obvious as to not need pointing out. Why do you refuse to accept that and continue to demand explanations?

I say things as they appear from the perspective of a passenger, and that often isn't a good thing for the railway.

I don’t think someone who makes comments like yours represents the typical passenger.

The Airline industry for one, which I am familar with. At least with British Airways which I have quite a lot of knowledge about the internal workings of, there would *always* be a plan ready to put in place and the contingency staff available to keep people moving on the busiest routes even when one of the airports had to shut.

Do you work in the airline industry?

A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure. If an entire airport had to be closed for a long period chaos would ensue, with people likely ending stranded for long periods. No amount of contingency planning can get around things going wrong occasionally.

 

[crablab]

was right in saying there was as good as no trains between Reading and London, even if very strictly speaking that isn’t true.

I take the point, but I do think that's hyperbole - there are trains from Reading to Waterloo and Oxford to London Marylebone, amongst others. They are diversionary routes which you wouldn't ordinarily take as they are slow stopping services, but they are running trains and conveying people.

I'm not sure what alternatives there are when the GWML is blocked, other than to divert people via the diversionary routes? I guess GWR could just say "line is closed, tough find your own way", but then they'd be criticised for doing that!

It might not be ideal, or "good", but people are at least getting to their destinations albeit with great delay, in a time of significant perturbation.

Certainly something to review after the event, but as someone whose train was delayed and subsequently cancelled short, and who managed to get to my destination via the ticket acceptance routes, I don't feel too aggrieved.

 

[43066]

I take the point, but I do think that's hyperbole - there are trains from Reading to Waterloo and Oxford to London Marylebone, amongst others. They are diversionary routes which you wouldn't ordinarily take as they are slow stopping services, but they are running trains and conveying people.

I'm not sure what alternatives there are when the GWML is blocked, other than to divert people via the diversionary routes? I guess GWR could just say "line is closed, tough find your own way", but then they'd be criticised for doing that!

It might not be ideal, or "good", but people are at least getting to their destinations albeit with great delay, in a time of significant perturbation.

Certainly something to review after the event, but as someone whose train was delayed and subsequently cancelled short, and who managed to get to my destination via the ticket acceptance routes, I don't feel too aggrieved.

How refreshing to see a sensible, balanced post from an actual customer rather than an armchair expert! Pleased to hear you’ve made it to where you were going and I hope your day wasn’t too badly affected.

 

[Horizon22]

It appears as though they’ll be able to enact a full repair tonight through an extended possession although this will almost certainly extend into the morning services.

Some electric shuttles are already running (in naturally short sections).

 

[TheEdge]

It happens very frequently on the GEML

No it doesn't. A full dewirement is rare. We had one last week and that's the first big one I remember for years. We get a fairly normal amount of dropper issues and stuff tangled in them. But a full job stopper is rare.

Please clarify further for me why it takes days to repair a simple structure of a pole and a wire?

Because it's not simple.

The wire itself is more like a thick solid cable with an almost T shape profile. A headspan structure is horizontal cable under tension hanging from a suspension cable which then has the multiple contact wires under tension travelling parallel to the while arrangement. Its also got registration arms and heavy ceramic insulators suspended within it. That whole structure has to be tensioned in the right way to push the contact wires down enough to make good contact while allowing the pans to push back up, and holding themselves up, and put up with the forces of the pans underneath, often multiple at once pushing in different directions. Then the contact wires have to be tensioned as well.

And if these quotes of multiple miles of damage then there will be hundreds of those that'll need checking and repairing.

 

[DanNCL]

I don’t think someone who makes comments like yours represents the typical passenger.

I'm capable of looking at situations from the view of "the typical passenger" and regularly do when it comes to these situations.

Do you work in the airline industry?

A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure. If an entire airport had to be closed for a long period chaos would ensue, with people likely ending stranded for long periods. No amount of contingency planning can get around things going wrong occasionally.

Not anymore, and their policy may well have changed since my time there.

Taking the example of BA's domestic flights to/from Newcastle, the first contingency was to divert to Teesside and have a coach transfer in place. Not ideal but it worked. If for whatever reason that wasn't doable, out came the corporate credit card and LNER did quite well out of it!

It appears as though they’ll be able to enact a full repair tonight through an extended possession although this will almost certainly extend into the morning services.

Fantastic!

 

[Sleepy]

GWR have cancelled Sleeper's tonight in both directions. Fail to see why they can't operate to /from Reading ?

 

[DanNCL]

GWR have cancelled Sleeper's tonight in both directions. Fail to see why they can't operate to /from Reading ?

The set is stuck at Paddington.

 

[cactustwirly]

It’s been clearly explained to you by people who know what they’re talking about that it isn’t just as simple as:



Which I would have thought would be so obvious as to not need pointing out. Why do you refuse to accept that and continue to demand explanations?



I don’t think someone who makes comments like yours represents the typical passenger.



Do you work in the airline industry?

A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure. If an entire airport had to be closed for a long period chaos would ensue, with people likely ending stranded for long periods. No amount of contingency planning can get around things going wrong occasionally.

No one has explained to me exactly why it takes so long.
All I've heard basically is very basic explanations, which sound more like NR incompetence for not having the right resources in the right places and no contingency.

If someone would like to explain to me in more detail exactly what makes it more difficult than just re attaching wire to a pole please feel free.
Illustrated diagrams might be helpful as well.


My job involves problem solving and a can do attitude. If there is an issue with machinery then the explanations really given really wouldn't cut it in my workplace.

I think the passengers need an explanation why millions of pounds have been wasted and thousands of people have had plans ruined.

Incidents like this is why I drive....
I don't have much trust in the railway anymore