Possible disruption 19th September?

[norbitonflyer]

Most likely as that will the route the Queens hearse will drive, on the way to the Long Walk at Windsor.

Update, Datchet level crossing is closed as part of Operation London Bridge.

Curious, as the cortege went through Runnymede, on the other side of the Thames.

In what way would you think a TOC would get corporate card out today? How would that help?

Don’t quite see how that has a relevance to railway

Isn't that what ticket acceptsnce or replacement road services amount to? Although much hsrder to organise on the scale required for a busy railway with multiple stations affected, not to mention passengers stranded between statilns. On the airllines there are fewer people on each flight, usually only one airport is involved, and planes tend not to be stop between airports (at least, not survivably).

 

[59CosG95]

Totally agree with Alex, above.

There's nothing inherently wrong with headspans as such; after all, they are widely used in other systems in Europe. Cheaper in the short term to erect and less obtrusive visually.
It'd be interesting to see, though, if any studies have been undertaken as to their resilience vs more solid structures. My gut feeling is they are less resilient as they increase the number of variables in the system and are more complex to set up correctly.

Overhead wiring has so many variables:
The interface between train and track, and its relation to the positioning of the OHLE such as cant and the "wobbliness" over junctions
The pan itself
The set-up of the wires - tensioning in particular
The power supply
Human factors - shopping trolleys chucked off bridges, straw blown from agricultural eqpt, etc
Weather - temperature and wind in particular

Headspans probably have an effect on tolerances used and parameters set.

Anyway, Network Ral probably missed a chance when it had all that F&F kit left over from the aborted parts of the GWML electrification - getting rid of it cheaply rather than using many of the parts to replace the remaining headspans out of Padd.

They did re-register some of the crossovers with F+F equipment, although this was exclusively over the Mains. At a crossover structure (and at overlap structures, come to think of it) it's still going to be messy even if everything is already mechanically independent.

At those crossovers, the modus operandi was to "remove on the mains, retain on the reliefs", whereby the existing headspans would have DM/UM registrations removed, but the DR/UR ones would remain. As a result the headspan would still be at risk from the DM/UM, but it was a cost/reliability-on-the-faster-lines tradeoff.

The contractors did remove almost all headspans within stations for NR (AFAIK, one headspan remains within Acton ML, and around 2 or 3 - certainly no more than 5 - remain in West Ealing. (Hanwell looks likely to keep them as it's listed, although if they could provide a sympathetic yet robust headspan design I would love to see it.)
Stations are one of the larger areas of safety risk if a headspan goes down - as you can imagine, "Sudden Unexpected Twenty Five Thousand Volts (Or Whiplash From A Span Wire) While Waiting On A Platform" is probably more of a problem to Joe Public than Joe Public's train being delayed.

That said, re-registering the GWML should be a far less daunting task than other headspan routes, especially as it's the shortest by a long way. Sections have been replaced, and some are in line for being replaced at the moment - there certainly won't be any call for them at Old Oak Common!

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks 59. Are there any tensioning issues between the headspans and the F&F inserts?

 

[norbitonflyer]

The procession approached Windsor via Runnymede and Old Windsor, not via Datchet. Not saying the closure was not part of the grand plan though. Maybe the cars which had to beat the procession from Westminster to Windsor went that way.

I don't think they did. They took a different route between Hyde Park Corner and Gloucester Road (presumably straight down the A4, (Knightsbridge, Brompton Road, Cromwell Road) rather than the hearse's route via Hyde Park, the Albert Memorial and Queens Gate) but after that there was no reason not to take the same route as the hearse. (A4,A30, A308) to enter the castle by the ceremonial Long Walk. Why close off two routes? The limos were seen on TV approaching the Hogarth roundabout in Chiswick while the hearse was passing Earls Court

Possibly Datchet level crossing was closed because it is the only road access to a large area other than via the A308, which was part of the procession route. But as it is on the Windsor branch, it would not have prevented Reading services running.

 

[Old Shire]

A simple question, what caused the damage to the OH wires?

 

[JN114]

A simple question, what caused the damage to the OH wires?

Not known at this stage.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Now expected to be up and running at midday.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There could just as easily have been a major RTC on the A4 or A30 which blocked the route the hearse will take later. If the Royal Train had been part of the plan I am sure there would have been a contingency exactly for this type of occurrence (plus a very close inspection of the wiring in the run up).

It is a shame that potentially many people will have missed out on being part of this historic event because of this.

No there couldn't. The roads were closed in advance.
Besides, plenty of diversionary routes available if the road's shut

 

[LowLevel]

The procession approached Windsor via Runnymede and Old Windsor, not via Datchet. Not saying the closure was not part of the grand plan though. Maybe the cars which had to beat the procession from Westminster to Windsor went that way.

It was to allow the passage of VIPs bound for Windsor rather than the procession itself.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not known at this stage.

Now expected to be up and running at midday.

It is known, but not being publicised, as is normal for such incidents.

 

[davews]

I suppose some spokesman will come on the TV to say the trains ran remarkably well...
The Reading lines were affected by the Datchet level crossing closure because they got stuck behind cancelled Windsor trains, obviously planning for the closure hadn't worked out as planned.
Nobody has mentioned the other issue last night, the Sunningdale level crossing failed causing big delays, 2C61 was held up for nearly an hour and a few others until it was sorted. No doubt jam packed with frustrated passengers.
I had half thought of popping up to see the action, maybe as well I didn't.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Looks like it was a mistake to leave any headspans in place on this critical section of line from Paddington Station to Heathrow Airport Junction used by Elizabeth Line, Heathrow Express and GWR trains. If some of the headspans were not replaced to save money the de-wirement yesterday shows it to be a false economy. Perhaps they will now replace all the remaining headspans between Paddington Station and Heathrow Airport. The Network Rail document is dated February 2015.

https://www.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/default/files/sitedocuments/Planning-and-Building-Control/Planning/nr_a_guide_to_overhead_electrification.pdf

9.4 Headspans
Earlier overhead electrification projects have frequently used a system of wires spanning between masts either side of the tracks to support the OLE catenary and contact wires. These are known as ‘headspans’. There have been difficulties with this system in practice, in particular because there is a much greater risk that damage to the OLE will affect all tracks, resulting in much greater disruption than with other systems. As a consequence, headspans are now avoided, except in historic train sheds where slow train speeds reduce the risk of damage. Headspans are still favoured in these circumstances because they are much less visually obtrusive than other support methods (see section 13.6).

Back to portals - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article Headspans were necessary but now improved resilience is needed Generally, the railway electrification schemes that first emerged in Britain, before the introduction of more recent AC designs, relied on fairly heavy equipment. Multitrack supports were generally of the...

www.railengineer.co.uk

Despite its advantages in terms of cost, the headspan does have issues with resilience and reliability. In particular, the lack of mechanical independence between registrations means that, in the event of a problem such as a de-wirement, the impact is significant, affecting multiple tracks and increasing the time to reinstate the equipment.

 

[London Trains]

The procession approached Windsor via Runnymede and Old Windsor, not via Datchet. Not saying the closure was not part of the grand plan though. Maybe the cars which had to beat the procession from Westminster to Windsor went that way.

I don't think they did. They took a different route between Hyde Park Corner and Gloucester Road (presumably straight down the A4, (Knightsbridge, Brompton Road, Cromwell Road) rather than the hearse's route via Hyde Park, the Albert Memorial and Queens Gate) but after that there was no reason not to take the same route as the hearse. (A4,A30, A308) to enter the castle by the ceremonial Long Walk. Why close off two routes? The limos were seen on TV approaching the Hogarth roundabout in Chiswick while the hearse was passing Earls Court.

I believe the cars that had to beat the procession used the M4 from Chiswick Flyover to J5 (Slough) and then the B470 onwards to Windsor, going through Datchet and over the level crossing.

During the TV recording of the hearse yesterday, you can see some of these vehicles on the M4 Chiswick Flyover, while the hearse was below on the A4. This was roughly around where Brentford's new stadium is.

 

[59CosG95]

Thanks 59. Are there any tensioning issues between the headspans and the F&F inserts?

I wouldn't think there are any, certainly none that I'm aware of. Certainly no along-track tension issues - the droppers would just be changed at the time of changing the registrations. The tension in the equipment would also stay the same if surrounded by similar wire runs; you wouldn't put a 13kN/16.5kN crossover wire run in if it interfaces with 11kN/11kN wire runs.
IIRC Stockley Jn or thereabouts is the designated "tension change" area, where the wire runs all change to Series 1 tensions from Mk3B tensions.

(you can have mixed tension wire runs in parallel, but this isn't ideal. On the ECML south of Hitchin, where the Mk3A Fasts have all since been upgraded to Mk3D, some crossovers have also been given Mk3D upgrades for greater reliability.)

 

[Taunton]

I suppose some spokesman will come on the TV to say the trains ran remarkably well...
The Reading lines were affected by the Datchet level crossing closure because they got stuck behind cancelled Windsor trains, obviously planning for the closure hadn't worked out as planned.
Nobody has mentioned the other issue last night, the Sunningdale level crossing failed causing big delays, 2C61 was held up for nearly an hour and a few others until it was sorted. No doubt jam packed with frustrated passengers.
I had half thought of popping up to see the action, maybe as well I didn't.

The closure of Datchet crossing in the afternoon was always known, while the funeral cortege was deliberately travelling the slower way via Staines there was a flow of others who initially followed them along the otherwise closed M4 motorway, off at the Langley road junction, and over the crossing into Windsor. As the cortege left Chiswick towards Heathrow, television pictures showed the coaches in the background taking the M4 flyover.

The response the railway gave to the television news in the evening about the Paddington shambles was, of course "Passengers should check before they travel", thus sticking it all onto the passengers, in the usual way, as being their fault for not checking every 5 minutes - though quite how someone actually got to London from Maidenhead etc is not clear. The gentleman on the news from that direction with an invitation to the main Westminster Abbey service, who missed it all, was one of many. Perhaps the passengers should respond that The Railway should check before the day that all their elements are in working order ...

 

[WilloughbyGC]

The closure of Datchet crossing in the afternoon was always known, while the funeral cortege was deliberately travelling the slower way via Staines there was a flow of others who initially followed them along the otherwise closed M4 motorway, off at the Langley road junction, and over the crossing into Windsor. As the cortege left Chiswick towards Heathrow, television pictures showed the coaches in the background taking the M4 flyover.

The response the railway gave to the television news in the evening about the Paddington shambles was, of course "Passengers should check before they travel", thus sticking it all onto the passengers, in the usual way, as being their fault for not checking every 5 minutes - though quite how someone actually got to London from Maidenhead etc is not clear. The gentleman on the news from that direction with an invitation to the main Westminster Abbey service, who missed it all, was one of many. Perhaps the passengers should respond that The Railway should check before the day that all their elements are in working order ...

its worse than that for passengers with deliberate (or if I was feeling more charitable) useless misinformation. I was at Paddington this morning just before 0800. The NRE app was showing the 0832 to Bristol as running normally as on time. With the platforms devoid of IETs and the PIS screens blank, I asked the helpful GWR staff member on the gate whether the train would really be running? He said definitely not, but NRE show them as running and then cancel them just before. They were doing the same thing yesterday'. What possible reason do they have for doing this? How many people could be dissuaded from travelling from Waterloo to Reading and then west, because of info like this which is plainly wrong?

 

[Falcon1200]

This in spades, earlier posts have suggested there was already damage.

Where? I have read this entire topic and cannot see any mention anywhere of damage before this incident.

A fairly irrelevant comparison for several reasons: aircraft don’t operate over defined route of fixed infrastructure.

Taking the example of BA's domestic flights to/from Newcastle, the first contingency was to divert to Teesside and have a coach transfer in place. Not ideal but it worked.

Holding up the airline industry as an example for the railways to follow, given the disruption this summer, is bizarre to say the least!

The railway has had one diversion that shut down for part of the day, and no replacement buses. Not really comparable.

One diversion that was disrupted, not shut, for a short time, on which additional trains ran, as below, and a second diversion (Oxford-Marylebone). Plus no chance of getting anywhere near sufficient, or indeed any, buses to cater for passenger numbers

there actually are a number of additional SWR services this afternoon between Reading and London Waterloo to support diverted GWR passengers.

The closure of Datchet crossing in the afternoon was always known,

But a closure which lasted longer than had been planned, as mentioned above, and outside the railway's control.

 

[duncananderson]

its worse than that for passengers with deliberate (or if I was feeling more charitable) useless misinformation. I was at Paddington this morning just before 0800. The NRE app was showing the 0832 to Bristol as running normally as on time. With the platforms devoid of IETs and the PIS screens blank, I asked the helpful GWR staff member on the gate whether the train would really be running? He said definitely not, but NRE show them as running and then cancel them just before. They were doing the same thing yesterday'. What possible reason do they have for doing this? How many people could be dissuaded from travelling from Waterloo to Reading and then west, because of info like this which is plainly wrong?

This is one of my pet peeves during disruption. The “check before you travel” line, which is repeated everywhere you can think to check, with no further advice on where to check to get reliable up to date information.

I feel like the purpose of this suggestion is to decrease the number of would be passengers turning up at a station when no trains are running, but often the only place you can get reliable information about what’s running, even at a short lead time ( < 30 mins), is at the station.

I could give detailed examples but that’s for another thread.

 

[fandroid]

its worse than that for passengers with deliberate (or if I was feeling more charitable) useless misinformation. I was at Paddington this morning just before 0800. The NRE app was showing the 0832 to Bristol as running normally as on time. With the platforms devoid of IETs and the PIS screens blank, I asked the helpful GWR staff member on the gate whether the train would really be running? He said definitely not, but NRE show them as running and then cancel them just before. They were doing the same thing yesterday'. What possible reason do they have for doing this? How many people could be dissuaded from travelling from Waterloo to Reading and then west, because of info like this which is plainly wrong?

I found that Realtimetrains info was actually worse than NRE. Absolutely nothing running out of Paddington at about 10.20 this morning when I was there, so I'm on the service from Waterloo, crawling along to Reading, where I hope to pick up a Plymouth train.

 

[Taunton]

I can only suggest that someone from the railway writes to The King.

"Dear King Charles

"Due to a range of complete cockups by us lot (we still haven't worked out whose fault it all was), nobody from the Paddington direction got to the Westminster Abbey Service, hence the empty chairs. Apparently they are all somewhat disappointed. Do you think you could get a selection of the grand soldiers, etc together, and do a little repeat for them one day."

 

[Horizon22]

This is one of my pet peeves during disruption. The “check before you travel” line, which is repeated everywhere you can think to check, with no further advice on where to check to get reliable up to date information.

I feel like the purpose of this suggestion is to decrease the number of would be passengers turning up at a station when no trains are running, but often the only place you can get reliable information about what’s running, even at a short lead time ( < 30 mins), is at the station.

I could give detailed examples but that’s for another thread.

Check before you travel is good for those that blindly turn up at the station, because 90+% of the time trains are running fine. They get on a regular service and know where trains go so it’s fine for them. This sort of messaging puts a bit of a “break” in that automatic activity and people consider options.

You can check any manner of tools in advance - the majority of people have and use a smart phone and even if you don’t, you can check things before you leave your house. Obviously things can change en route to the station but that could happen any time.

It might also mean asking staff for the latest advice, listening to announcements, checking websites (NRE or even local media during major disruption). Some stuff is only available at stations true, but that is not the be all and end all.

And yes to some extent and depending on the issue and alternative capacity, you want to reduce people turning up as-hoc. I have found that almost every time there is severe disruption, after a couple of hours footfall dramatically decreases at the affected station, suggesting the message works.

 

[fandroid]

I found that Realtimetrains info was actually worse than NRE. Absolutely nothing running out of Paddington at about 10.20 this morning when I was there, so I'm on the service from Waterloo, crawling along to Reading, where I hope to pick up a Plymouth train.

I have a direct link to page 1 of the departure boards at Reading and it looks chaotic there, with every train just showing up as "Delayed". They'd better get that sorted soon as there's a crowded train full of erstwhile Paddington passengers heading their way from Waterloo as I write

 

[Horizon22]

I have a direct link to page 1 of the departure boards at Reading and it looks chaotic there, with every train just showing up as "Delayed". They'd better get that sorted soon as there's a crowded train full of erstwhile Paddington passengers heading their way from Waterloo as I write

Most apps are showing trains running normally albeit with quantified delays.

 

[fandroid]

Check before you travel is good for those that blindly turn up at the station, because 90+% of the time trains are running fine. They get on a regular service and know where trains go so it’s fine for them. This sort of messaging puts a bit of a “break” in that automatic activity and people consider options.

You can check any manner of tools in advance - the majority of people have and use a smart phone and even if you don’t, you can check things before you leave your house. Obviously things can change en route to the station but that could happen any time.

It might also mean asking staff for the latest advice, listening to announcements, checking websites (NRE or even local media during major disruption). Some stuff is only available at stations true, but that is not the be all and end all.

And yes to some extent and depending on the issue and alternative capacity, you want to reduce people turning up as-hoc. I have found that almost every time there is severe disruption, after a couple of hours footfall dramatically decreases at the affected station, suggesting the message works.

You are correct in your last para. I arrived at Paddington at 10.10 today (having exhausted all sources on my smartphone, which did show some optimism for my 11.04 departure) and it was fairly quiet. That meant the queue at the enquiries desk was fairly short. But I still wish I'd headed straight to Waterloo, which I would have done if those online sources didn't show my train as still running.

 

[dk1]

You are correct in your last para. I arrived at Paddington at 10.10 today (having exhausted all sources on my smartphone, which did show some optimism for my 11.04 departure) and it was fairly quiet. That meant the queue at the enquiries desk was fairly short. But I still wish I'd headed straight to Waterloo, which I would have done if those online sources didn't show my train as still running.

Did things go wrong again though? Simon Calder was heading for Heathrow just after 10:00 but then sat at Southall for around half an hour before the train went forward but terminated at Heathrow Central for the return working.

 

[fandroid]

Most apps are showing trains running normally albeit with quantified delays.

Rather ominously, the GWR app is refusing to show live departures from Reading!

Rather ominously, the GWR app is refusing to show live departures from Reading!

But my Reading departure board link is now showing a bit of optimism at the bottom of the screen with a Cheltenham train even on time!

 

[Taunton]

Check before you travel is good for those that blindly turn up at the station, because 90+% of the time trains are running fine. They get on a regular service and know where trains go so it’s fine for them. This sort of messaging puts a bit of a “break” in that automatic activity and people consider options.

This is a very "Railway Bubble" attitude, to sneer at passengers who "blindly" turn up when the timetable says.

I don't need to check the road condition before any car journey. If I have a plane ticket I just go to the airport when it says. But somehow on the railway I have to keep checking beforehand, even though where there are issues one finds that:

a) It's described as a "Good Service" regardless (London Underground).
b) It's described as "All services are subject to delays and/or cancellation" (Railway).

Useless. There's also the issue that my journeys to the London departure termini are typically by Underground, out of range of a mobile phone signal.

 

[fandroid]

Rather ominously, the GWR app is refusing to show live departures from Reading!


But my Reading departure board link is now showing a bit of optimism at the bottom of the screen with a Cheltenham train even on time!

Forget that last comment. RTT shows it as cancelled. It does look as if the Elizabeth Line is now running out of Reading

 

[htafc]

RTT showing carnage at both Reading (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:RDG?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt) and Paddington (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:PAD?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt)...

 

[fandroid]

This is a very "Railway Bubble" attitude, to sneer at passengers who "blindly" turn up when the timetable says.

I don't need to check the road condition before any car journey. If I have a plane ticket I just go to the airport when it says. But somehow on the railway I have to keep checking beforehand, even though where there are issues one finds that:

a) It's described as a "Good Service" regardless (London Underground).
b) It's described as "All services are subject to delays and/or cancellation" (Railway).

Useless. There's also the issue that my journeys to the London departure termini are typically by Underground, out of range of a mobile phone signal.

I have found it advantageous when starting a serious car journey to put the trip on the Google Maps satnav system. That is fairly good at spotting serious holdups, which if you run into one on a motorway can result in hours of frustration as you are effectively trapped.