Presumably there isn't the demand.
Interesting. I certainly wouldn't consider that expensive. The last time I looked I thought they wanted something like £40 for a foot passenger. One way. Maybe I was seeing demand related pricing.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Eurostar Disney Direct services 2023
- Thread starter Welby
- Start date
- Status
Presumably there isn't the demand.
Interesting. I certainly wouldn't consider that expensive. The last time I looked I thought they wanted something like £40 for a foot passenger. One way. Maybe I was seeing demand related pricing.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Trainbike46
Established Member
Possibly, or maybe it was just that the booking engine is very much set up to push you to their Premium fare (which comes up as about £40 each way), instead of their saver fare
Could be. It was just idle curiosity so I didn't look as hard as I would have if I was actually intending money to change hands.
contrex
Member
Quelle barrière ?
Austriantrain
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 1,441
What would be needed is a two-hourly (or hourly) „local“ service St Pancras (- maybe Stratford) - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais-Fréthun - Lille service with class 395-like trains.
That would, however need France and the UK to work together and finance it. Not very likely, I think…
Something like that could also be the Ouigo to MLV/CDG - they terminate at those I believe so there is precedent.
Perhaps a service to another location (e.g. Geneva or Bordeaux) which has been mentioned, could pick up the Disney call in time. I can't see that it needs a dedicated service any more.
Especially when the British PM hasn’t yet decided if Macron is a friend or foe.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
At this point anything is better than nothing. Eurostar are clearly out of their depth and have given up
Out of their depth in relation to what? They clearly have a firm appreciation of their markets and how much they are worth, and are making sure the business continues to operate through the next few extremely unpredictable years.
Maybe the Disney train will never come back. But if it means Eurostar to Paris and Brussels stays strong to me that's an acceptable sacrifice. 1tp2h to Amsterdam should be a higher priority than a handful of trains per day to Disney imho
I think the Disney train is neither here nor there but personally I'd like it if they considered themselves to be part of a railway network and make it easy to get through fares outside the Eurostar/Thalys network.
But of course they have no obligation to do so and both the EU and UK government seem very happy for high speed international operators to act essentially as airlines running on railway lines - and most people wouldn't expect BA or Easyjet to sell tickets including rail connections at either end.
I think there's another thread on how to develop Eurostar generally, this thread is specifically on the Disneyland service.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Eurostar sent a letter to the transport select committee explaining why eurostar will not be stopping in kent anytime soon, and why non-core routes, like disneyland paris, are being suspended
But in short, the main reasons are:
- Much lower processing capacity at St Pancras (from 2200 pax/h in 2019 to 1500 pax/h now) as a consequence of Brexit
- High cost environment getting worse (HS1 getting even more expensive, as well as high cost loans as UK government was unwilling to provide covid loans to Eurostar like it did to airlines)
Specifically the first one is why they can't expand the timetable to capture all the demand that exists for the route. UK government decisions have led to the end of eurostar in Kent, and the reduction in number of routes
But in short, the main reasons are:
- Much lower processing capacity at St Pancras (from 2200 pax/h in 2019 to 1500 pax/h now) as a consequence of Brexit
- High cost environment getting worse (HS1 getting even more expensive, as well as high cost loans as UK government was unwilling to provide covid loans to Eurostar like it did to airlines)
Specifically the first one is why they can't expand the timetable to capture all the demand that exists for the route. UK government decisions have led to the end of eurostar in Kent, and the reduction in number of routes
Cloud Strife
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2014
- Messages
- 2,336
How much is that in terms of trains? Something like 3 trains an hour?
Trainbike46
Established Member
an e320 can take up to 902 passengers, and an e300 can take 758, so not even two full trains an hour
Trainbike46
Established Member
According to the letter, there is no spare capacity in border staff, so placing staff at Kent stations reduces staff at St Pancras. As staff at Kent stations is less productive (less passengers checked per hour), this reduces overall capacity
Cloud Strife
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2014
- Messages
- 2,336
That's absolutely ridiculous. Eurostar should be sending at least one train every hour towards Paris and one towards Brussels!
Even more ridiculous. For the huge amounts spent on HS1 and St Pancras in particular, there's absolutely no reason not to train the amount of Border Force staff needed.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
After everybody has got on at St Pancras, the Border Force staff should travel on the train to Ebbsfleet and Ashford then get off to carry out passport formalities at those stations for people boarding there. Then travel back to St Pancras on a northbound service and repeat.
There are always hundreds of staff members stood milling around at St Pancras having a chat in French. I am sure several of which could be popped onto the train in addition for good measure.
The whole situation is very clearly about money and saving as much of it as possible. Forget providing a useful service for people who don’t live in London.
Exactly! More gibberish being spouted
Trainbike46
Established Member
Fully agree both are ridiculous; However, neither of them are at all within Eurostar's (or any theoretical competitor of Eurostar) control. This mess has fully been caused by the government, starting with this brexit nonsense.
In the longer term, the hope is that EES will make things quicker and thereby increase St Pancras capacity, hopefully back to precovid levels.
Tbh, If I was in charge I would suggest to eurostar we could redeploy border staff from airports in the short term to reopen the kent stations. Another option might be to open Stratford international for Eurostar passengers, stop every eurostar train there, and make a portion of the seats on the train bookable from Stratford to increase capacity. Once again, nick the border force staff from airports
BluePenguin
On Moderation
Out of their depth in relation to providing a useful service to as many people as possible - including the lesiure market. Build it and they will come as the saying goes. If stops in Kent were consistent they would be used more. The odd once a day stop at 6am and 7pm per service is not useful nor convenient. Pre-pandemic there were no plans to drop the stations.
These days Eurostar appear to be firmly focused on profit. They are geared towards middle-class couples wanting a weekend in Paris and business travellers who require full flexibility and will pay for it whatever the cost. Families heading to Disneyland certainly pay a similar premium and a market worth tapping into.
Eurostar may know what they are worth although their offering is useless to someone such as myself. How do you propose that is appreciation of their markets? They are literally ignoring all markets apart from their main one. Kent stations will never be as profitable as a London terminal. Although it is good business practice to focus on other products and not just your main flagship.
They should extend all the Brussels services to Amsterdam if they want to make use of their available capacity.
Last edited:
Concentrating on offering a useful service they can deliver seems to me to be very much staying well within their depth. Eurostar don't have easy access to subsidy in the way TOCs do so needs to make money to survive. And a Eurostar that goes bust is no use to anybody.
BIB - you've answered your own question. They've assessed their markets and worked out only 2 or 3 are profitable, so they've focused on those. Sometimes, you have to appreciate that individuals won't fall into the 'as many people as possible' option.
On this I agree.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Do you ever travel with eurostar? you do know there is always people passing through border checks at St Pancras as the next train is soon enough people for the next train to need to go through checks as soon as the previous train's passengers are through. It's not as if they just sit their doing nothing
Your suggestion would make the border staff even less productive, as they would spend time on the train. It also means the train has to wait in kent for people to go through checks, and is therefore a terrible idea.
Are they the border officials limiting capacity though, or are they other staff doing various jobs? Not that I agree with this assessment - whenever I have travelled with eurostar (which is quite regularly), this was absolutely not the case.
The letter straight up says that one of the challenges is getting enough income to make interest payments and repayments on the (high-interest) loans they were forced to take out during covid because the UK government excluded them from COVID help.....
ashkeba
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 May 2019
- Messages
- 2,171
If opening only one other station, Ashford offers most, able of serving all demand SE of London and is already fitted out for border ops. Stratford is too close to St Pancakes.
Trainbike46
Established Member
I wasn't suggesting it as a solution to serving more markets, but as a solution to not having enough space at St Pancras! But that only works if the required extra border staff can come from somewhere - and the only realistic option in the short term would be nicking them from airports, which is never going to happen with this government, so that whole paragraph is firmly speculative, and I probably shouldn't have added it in this (non-speculative) thread
BluePenguin
On Moderation
That is a good point. Although it is unfortunate that a large number of people are now at a disadvantage
Depends on what do you define as ever lol. I have certainly used them in the past but reluctant to currently. I know the staff are not doing absolutely nothing although if resources must be squeezed then perhaps they should be further.
Eh what? If you have travelled on Eurostar yourself from Ashford or Ebbsfleet then you will know that passengers go through security and then wait on the platform for train to arrive then get on straight away. There is no waiting around at all.
That is also ridiculous. We are all now having to pay towards those loans through higher ticket prices. The government should have done more to help keep them afloat. Although being an international service I believe that the French, Dutch and the Flemish governments should also have done more too.
Absolutely
I think you're the one spouting gibberish. Stop the train in Kent for Border Force staff to mess about there? Who replaces them at St Pancras for the next train that will be loading up immediately? Muck about riding around on trains for lumps of the day?
It's a constant churn of passengers at St Pancras nowadays. Seconds needed for extra tasks do count with the volumes involved.
If you check say 50 people per train with 2 staff in Kent that is far less productive than the constant flow through London.
Trainbike46
Established Member
I've never used them from Kent stations. However, if the staff doing border checks for those stations were to be on the eurostar there, as I interpreted from you suggestion, then obviously the train would have to wait for the passengers being checked, right? what am I missing here.
I know this is not how it used to work, because the border officials wouldn't be travelling down to kent on the eurostar back when those stations were used for eurostar.
The french and belgian governments provided significant help to Eurostar. However, the refusal of the UK government to help wasn't replaced by extra help from the French and Belgian governments. No clue whether the dutch government did anything, but I wouldn't call it out of character for them to have failed massively too.
I wonder why you think the Flemish government should have helped, given eurostar serves exactly zero stations in Flanders? Remember, for political purposes Brussels is it's own region and not part of Flanders.
From what airports? It’s French border staff they need, and you don’t exactly have them milling around nearby airports…
Trainbike46
Established Member
my mistake - my thoughts were local airports, so London City, Stansted, Luton, and Southend, but that only works for the UK border staff obviously
It is unfortunate, but then it's also unfortunate that there's a global inflation crisis, war in Eastern Europe and the UK voted to put more barriers up between the EU and themselves. Keeping Eurostar running is better overall than letting it drag itself into the ground.
Even if your suggestion was to shuttle people up and down stepping up between trains, it's a hopelessly inefficient use of staff. The most sensible way to serve Ebbsfleet and Ashford would be to concentrate station calls into clusters in the morning and evening, so you only need staff for a morning and evening shift.
Why should the Flemish government pay for the service when it doesn't serve Flanders, whilst Canadian Teachers (who are the owners of what used to be the UK's stake) don't?
- Status