Eurostar Disney Direct services 2023

[Bald Rick]

So the UK will be isolated from the low-IQ culture of the venue which is Disney World, There is a God in Heaven!

Yes I’m really looking forward to taking the kids to the Guardian theme park at Salford Quays instead.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Are Eurostar really unable to provide even one per day? It’s a shame, at a time when we really need to be doing everything we can to get people off planes and onto trains.

For that one train a day you need a full airport style security setup, complete with baggage scanners, passport scanning equipment and whatever is now needed for the new Schengen entry system. You also need to get a team of Border Force officers on site for the time needed to do the checks.

The direct Disney train is a grandfathered legacy of early years of Eurostar, and realistically it was only a matter of time before this happenned. Any new proposal for a once a day service needing pre-boarding security, with limited growth prospects(unlike Amsterdam, even if E* had 100% market share on London - Disney it will still be a relatively small market) would be laughed out of the room.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps Disney could contribute towards some of the costs, given how popular the train was when I used it - with staff onboard helping people with their tickets/on site hotel bookings etc.

But post Brexit, it's just another acceptable loss so we can have a blue passport!

 

[Cloud Strife]

But maybe that exception has gone and that is the real reason for the end of the service.

It could be that, but given how crowded Eurostar is at the minute on the core services, I suspect that there's simply no commercial sense to it.

I’m surprised it continued with Disneyland given the lack of a refugee return treaty….

I'm also surprised. The station was hardly in the middle of nowhere, but perhaps there was a quiet agreement that the PAF would deny exit to anyone who wasn't likely to get into the UK.

 

[ashkeba]

As much as a change at Lille sounds simple, as soon as you introduce a change it’s going to put many people off (train to London then train straight to Disney sounds good. Train to London, train to Lille then train to Disney sounds nowhere near as enticing).

The 10xx Disney train seemed full last week and plenty of people wearing mouse ears and things like that were making a change at Lille anyway, so I suspect the direct service may have been sold out. The Lille to MLVC service is only 1tp2h, so is there anything like enough capacity without the e320s?

The beaten up and paint -damaged TGV single deck set which appeared at Lille was embarrassing too. Not a magical way to arrive at Disney land.

 

[WizCastro197]

Since the reduction in services from Marne la vallée and Kent, it now seems as if Eurostar are not more Interested in those travelling for business and not for families especially in the summer where many families would like to go to Disneyland but wouldn’t want to trudge all the way into London with heavy bags and suitcases with children.


Eurostar might as well just bin all services at this point…
(Joke btw just in case)

 

[Chester1]

There was a similar arrangement for the direct ski trains. French border staff presence in Bourg St Maurice and Moutiers and all UK border checks were carried out on arrival in St Pancras. The trains and that arrangement stopped with COVID though and clearly didn’t restart after Brexit. I’m surprised it continued with Disneyland given the lack of a refugee return treaty….

The return rate under the Dublin protocol was incredibly low, even with clear evidence of people having been registered or fingerprinted in another EU member state. I am sure I read a while back only about 1% of cross channel refugees were returned to an EU member state. My church has supported refugees for many years and none were returned under Dublin protocol despite several removal attempts that included evidence of fingerprints taken in EU member states. Unsurprisingly governments make it as difficult as possible for other governments to transfer refugees.

The suspension of Disneyland services will be for the same reason as Kent services not being reintroduced yet. The EUs two new border controls systems EES and ETIAS are due to launch next year (after multiple delays) and they will be tricky to manage for a while. Its easier to focus on core service during 2023 and probably early 2024.

 

[Austriantrain]

It could be that, but given how crowded Eurostar is at the minute on the core services, I suspect that there's simply no commercial sense to it.

I find that hard to believe. With their current timetable, they should have plenty of slack in the fleet; it might get tight if they had half-hourly to Paris, hourly to Brussels and two-hourly to Amsterdam, but they are very very far away from that.

It’s probably just that they figure that these services are not worth it financially on their own, but it is almost certainly not because they plan to use the trains from the Disney service somewhere else instead.

However, what might be possible is that they want to use spare E374 on Thalys services at some point and so are preemptively cutting low-performing trains from their TT.

 

[Mike395]

Considering the date chosen I’d strongly suspect this is linked to the planned EES start date in June - I wonder whether this is requested by PAF (the French border police) as on first entry after that date everyone will have fingerprints taken which will slow everything down, so focusing on the larger hubs where this process can be managed efficiently - particularly whilst they find their feet with it in a live environment and deal with the inevitable teething issues - does make some sense.

As I understand it facial recognition will be used instead on subsequent entries which will make EU entry feel more like pre-Brexit and allow e-passport gate use again for UK citizens - after a significant subset have entered once I can see Disney trains returning again as the logistics will have been ironed out and lessen the pressure on PAF more generally.

 

[AdamWW]

Considering the date chosen I’d strongly suspect this is linked to the planned EES start date in June - I wonder whether this is requested by PAF (the French border police) as on first entry after that date everyone will have fingerprints taken which will slow everything down, so focusing on the larger hubs where this process can be managed efficiently - particularly whilst they find their feet with it in a live environment and deal with the inevitable teething issues - does make some sense.

As I understand it facial recognition will be used instead on subsequent entries which will make EU entry feel more like pre-Brexit and allow e-passport gate use again for UK citizens - after a significant subset have entered once I can see Disney trains returning again as the logistics will have been ironed out and lessen the pressure on PAF more generally.

But won't the fingerprinting etc. take place in St Pancras whether you're going to Gare do Nord, Disneyland or anywhere else?

As an aside, to me it won't feel like remotely pre-Brexit unless they stop asking me why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and what transport I'm using to get home again

 

[Cloud Strife]

Considering the date chosen I’d strongly suspect this is linked to the planned EES start date in June - I wonder whether this is requested by PAF (the French border police) as on first entry after that date everyone will have fingerprints taken which will slow everything down, so focusing on the larger hubs where this process can be managed efficiently - particularly whilst they find their feet with it in a live environment and deal with the inevitable teething issues - does make some sense.

The PAF only carry out checks on exit from France at Marne-la-Vallée, not on entry. Schengen exit checks aren't very intensive, so the EES will actually speed things up by not requiring passports to be manually checked for stamps.

Whether the EES starts in June is also another question.

allow e-passport gate use again for UK citizens

UK citizens could have had this from the start of 2021, but the UK government failed miserably at negotiating it into the Withdrawal Agreement. There's already plenty of examples where some non-EU, non-European citizens can use the e-gates.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Almost everyone goes to Nord and takes the RER anyway. The Disney Express always struck me as a bit pointless. Way more expensive fares for a minor convenience.

 

[jon0844]

Clearly not everyone, given how popular the Disney trains are - and given they're full of families often with very young kids, a direct service might well be the difference between going to Disneyland Paris or not.

 

[Mike395]

UK citizens could have had this from the start of 2021, but the UK government failed miserably at negotiating it into the Withdrawal Agreement. There's already plenty of examples where some non-EU, non-European citizens can use the e-gates.

All non-EU visitors have to have a passport stamp at Schengen borders even when using E-gates at present which negates the main speed benefit of them. Regardless of what the Withdrawal Agreement said, we couldn’t have used E-gates frictionlessly up until next year as non EU citizens.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Clearly not everyone, given how popular the Disney trains are - and given they're full of families often with very young kids, a direct service might well be the difference between going to Disneyland Paris or not.

Indeed. Some years ago I took a 'Disney train' with companions from St. P to Marne-la-Vallée to connect with a TGV heading south - it was busy with families, lots of younger children on board. The 'experience' started at St. P waiting in the foyer with a small Disney themed brass band.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Clearly not everyone, given how popular the Disney trains are - and given they're full of families often with very young kids, a direct service might well be the difference between going to Disneyland Paris or not.

The point being if they ran the current Disney service as an extra Nord service instead, you would still have a full Eurostar I guarantee, whether it’s the same families or more business passengers. The only difference is consistency.

Indeed. Some years ago I took a 'Disney train' with companions from St. P to Marne-la-Vallée to connect with a TGV heading south - it was busy with families, lots of younger children on board. The 'experience' started at St. P waiting in the foyer with a small Disney themed brass band.

In my opinion that’s the only shame about the loss of the train; the connection to the TGV is good.

 

[Cloud Strife]

All non-EU visitors have to have a passport stamp at Schengen borders even when using E-gates at present which negates the main speed benefit of them. Regardless of what the Withdrawal Agreement said, we couldn’t have used E-gates frictionlessly up until next year as non EU citizens.

No, they don't. The stamp is for informational purposes only, and while Schengen rules say that passports should be stamped, it's not an absolute legal obligation for them to do so.

If you use the e-gates in a Schengen country, then there's a record kept of your entry digitally.

https://www.alamy.com/munich-german...kneffeldpaalamy-live-news-image360112797.html shows an example in Munich. They don't have their passport stamped, the e-gates handle everything. They have to register in advance, but otherwise their passports remain firmly unstamped.

 

[Chester1]

But won't the fingerprinting etc. take place in St Pancras whether you're going to Gare do Nord, Disneyland or anywhere else?

As an aside, to me it won't feel like remotely pre-Brexit unless they stop asking me why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and what transport I'm using to get home again

How do you think an E gate will ask you those questions? There will be hassle on your first visit after system launches and then it should be straightforward.

No, they don't. The stamp is for informational purposes only, and while Schengen rules say that passports should be stamped, it's not an absolute legal obligation for them to do so.

If you use the e-gates in a Schengen country, then there's a record kept of your entry digitally.

https://www.alamy.com/munich-german...kneffeldpaalamy-live-news-image360112797.html shows an example in Munich. They don't have their passport stamped, the e-gates handle everything. They have to register in advance, but otherwise their passports remain firmly unstamped.

There was a lot of agro related to use of national ID cards. The UK wasn't prepared to continue to accept ID cards and travel documents that did not contain a chip, due to them being a large majority of the forged documents seized by Border Force. There have been media reports recently of Albainian smugglers advertising entry into UK via Ireland using forged EU ID.

In the long term all EU national ID cards will have biometric chips, making them much harder to forge. Hopefully then a new border agreement can be reached. I would like to see UK copy Ireland's passport card. Its essentially like an ID card but designed to fit as many of the security features of a passport into a plastic card. Many people would not need a full passport if reciprocal agreement with the EU was signed.

I would be surprised if Disney services are not reintroduced after launch if EES and ETIAS. The core services would need to have higher than pre pandemic passenger numbers to take priority permanently.

 

[Cloud Strife]

How do you think an E gate will ask you those questions? There will be hassle on your first visit after system launches and then it should be straightforward.

It's not uncommon for someone observing the e-gates to require someone to present themselves for a secondary inspection if it's felt that they don't have the resources to travel.

There was a lot of agro related to use of national ID cards.

Don't get me started. I'm flying to Ireland next week via the UK, and so I need to carry both my (British) passport and my Polish ID card. I don't have a Polish passport because I'm lazy and can't be bothered visiting the required office twice, but because I'm going through the UK, I need my passport. If the UK continued to accept biometric EU ID cards (something that the EU would almost certainly have accepted without any fuss), I could just use my ID card and not carry around an expensive document with me.

My ID card is the latest version with a biometric chip and my fingerprints, and I can see at a glance that it has quite a few security features.

I would like to see UK copy Ireland's passport card. Its essentially like an ID card but designed to fit as many of the security features of a passport into a plastic card. Many people would not need a full passport if reciprocal agreement with the EU was signed.

I do like the Irish passport card idea, but the implementation there is a bit weak, as you need a passport first. But the idea is sound, and it's certainly far less trouble carrying around a plastic card than a passport. Maybe I'm paranoid, but if I'm carrying a passport, I'm checking my pockets ten times an hour to make sure that I don't lose it.

 

[johncrossley]

If the UK continued to accept biometric EU ID cards (something that the EU would almost certainly have accepted without any fuss), I could just use my ID card and not carry around an expensive document with me.

With modern technology, why do we even need a document at all? Just match your face and/or fingerprint against a pan-European online database.

My ID card is the latest version with a biometric chip and my fingerprints, and I can see at a glance that it has quite a few security features.

UK passports don't even contain fingerprints, so I would trust a biometric ID card over a UK passport. Do any EU countries still issue non-biometric ID cards?

 

[XAM2175]

I would like to see UK copy Ireland's passport card. Its essentially like an ID card but designed to fit as many of the security features of a passport into a plastic card. Many people would not need a full passport if reciprocal agreement with the EU was signed.

Yes, I agree. The UK already has experience producing a document along these lines, in form of the Biometric Residence Permit.

 

[tomuk]

With modern technology, why do we even need a document at all? Just match your face and/or fingerprint against a pan-European online database.

Unfortunately we wouldn't have access to it. Isn't this what the EU are creating anyway with the European Travel Information and Authorization System.

 

[johncrossley]

Unfortunately we wouldn't have access to it. Isn't this what the EU are creating anyway with the European Travel Information and Authorization System.

Obviously I'm talking about a more enlightened Europe where UK has good enough relations with the EU. You will still need a passport or ID card to use the ETIAS.

 

[Chester1]

Don't get me started. I'm flying to Ireland next week via the UK, and so I need to carry both my (British) passport and my Polish ID card. I don't have a Polish passport because I'm lazy and can't be bothered visiting the required office twice, but because I'm going through the UK, I need my passport. If the UK continued to accept biometric EU ID cards (something that the EU would almost certainly have accepted without any fuss), I could just use my ID card and not carry around an expensive document with me.

My ID card is the latest version with a biometric chip and my fingerprints, and I can see at a glance that it has quite a few security features.

I am not sure thats the case. I followed this at the time as I travel a lot and at no point did the EU offer a deal just for biometric ID cards. It would be contary to nature of EU, if the EU considers all national ID cards issued by member states to be valid they will demand that any deal on mutual recognition of ID cards does the same. Unless the EU offers a deal on recognition specifically just for biometric ID then there is no prospect of ID cards being accepted by UK until at least 2029. If Labour win election in 2024 they are unlikely to risk taking the blame for increased use of fraudulent documents at the UK border. They are more likely to sign a deal or change law so that the change only takes effect once the last non biometric EU ID cards become invalid in late 2029.

UK passports don't even contain fingerprints, so I would trust a biometric ID card over a UK passport. Do any EU countries still issue non-biometric ID cards?

Issuing new non biometric ID cards was banned by the EU in late 2019 but ID issued before the ban will be valid until expiry or 10 years at the latest. It will be a significant problem until the end of the decade because smugglers can just provide fake ID dated prior to late 2019.

To put into some context, a few years ago (I think around time of referendum) a friend travelled using temporary Italian paper ID issued by an Italian consulate. The common sense approach would be a deal that applied only to EU ID issued after the 2019 law. This would provide an easy way for the public and Border Force to identify if an ID card was acceptable. Anyone with older ID could chose to get new ID or use a passport if they have one. If the UK decided to follow Ireland and introduce passport cards then they could be designed to meet the standard from day 1.

These issues are going to run for the rest of this decade, effecting smaller ports of entry and exit the most.

Edit: I did some research and it appears Irish Passport Cards are valid for travel from Schengen area directly to the UK. It seems that is probably because of their linkage to full passports and because the EU was unlikely to brand the move discriminatory due to sensitivity of Common Travel Area and Northern Ireland related stuff.

 

[TheGrew]

I wonder if longer term (post border system upgrades) that a Disney stop might be added onto a South of France train (Marseille was previously served but I could seen Geneva or Lyon being terminating locations) in the same way Brussels is being increasingly viewed as a stop on the Amsterdam train. I think as people shift away from flying for environment reasons there might be a growing market for that.

 

[philg999]

No, they don't. The stamp is for informational purposes only, and while Schengen rules say that passports should be stamped, it's not an absolute legal obligation for them to do so.

If you use the e-gates in a Schengen country, then there's a record kept of your entry digitally.

https://www.alamy.com/munich-german...kneffeldpaalamy-live-news-image360112797.html shows an example in Munich. They don't have their passport stamped, the e-gates handle everything. They have to register in advance, but otherwise their passports remain firmly unstamped.

Absolute rubbish. Schengen states’ immigration systems are not linked so if you enter thru Germany and try to leave Via France, France would have no clue about the date you entered Schengen, then you’d be punished for illegal overstaying. Stamps are always required for people without right of residence in a Schengen member state.

 

[joncombe]

I wonder if longer term (post border system upgrades) that a Disney stop might be added onto a South of France train

There isn't a South of France train anymore. I'd love it to come back but given the cuts elsewhere I can't see it coming back for several years, if ever.

 

[tomuk]

Absolute rubbish. Schengen states’ immigration systems are not linked so if you enter thru Germany and try to leave Via France, France would have no clue about the date you entered Schengen, then you’d be punished for illegal overstaying. Stamps are always required for people without right of residence in a Schengen member state.

The stamps being superseded by the EES system next year if they can get it to work. I think its pushed back to September. I understand that UK, US and other states will be allowed to use egates after being enrolled in ETIAS\EES.

 

[EAD]

OK so I appreciate I am in the minority here as someone who actually deals in the law rather than conjecture (blame the day job), but I thought the below help as the greatest hits seem to come up time and time again since Brexit and we have 2/3 threads touching on this at the moment. The relevant regulation on the Schengen Borders Code (SBC) (Regulation (EU) 2016/399) has the salient points in there:

• entry requirements for third country nationals, which covers passport validity questions (Art 6);
• wet ink stamping (Art 11) and;
• the optionality around separate lanes for EEA+CH nationals (Art 10).

There seems to be a general conflation of the Art 10 separate lanes point and e-gates for third country nationals. In reality e-gates as they have come on stream have been focused on the greatest flows which means EEA+CH nationals. While I don't disagree that using e-gates is helpful and quicker, it needs to be kept in mind that it is up to each country how it uses its e-gates. Germany for example does allow citizens of certain countries to use EasyPass, on basis of agreement between them. What is linked to above by Cloud Strife is actually a bit like US Global Entry and different - it is called EasyPass Registered Traveller Program and does still require a wet ink stamp, but facilitates using EasyPass gates - see here. As already noted, some countries like Italy have invested and decided to extend to e.g. UK nationals the use the e-gate and then get directed to an officer for any questions/stamp (again that is their choice to do so and the list of countries is also defined). I would also note that in its latest August 22 update France has followed suit and added the UK to the list of nations that can use their PARAF gates (in French).

As TomUK says, the point of EES as well as improving the shared Schengen Information System (SIS) in connection with ETIAS is to do away with wet ink stamping by shifting to a fully electronic record. That opens up wider use of e-gates, but again it is up to each country to define the basis.

 

[Chester1]

OK so I appreciate I am in the minority here as someone who actually deals in the law rather than conjecture (blame the day job), but I thought the below help as the greatest hits seem to come up time and time again since Brexit and we have 2/3 threads touching on this at the moment. The relevant regulation on the Schengen Borders Code (SBC) (Regulation (EU) 2016/399) has the salient points in there:

• entry requirements for third country nationals, which covers passport validity questions (Art 6);
• wet ink stamping (Art 11) and;
• the optionality around separate lanes for EEA+CH nationals (Art 10).

There seems to be a general conflation of the Art 10 separate lanes point and e-gates for third country nationals. In reality e-gates as they have come on stream have been focused on the greatest flows which means EEA+CH nationals. While I don't disagree that using e-gates is helpful and quicker, it needs to be kept in mind that it is up to each country how it uses its e-gates. Germany for example does allow citizens of certain countries to use EasyPass, on basis of agreement between them. What is linked to above by Cloud Strife is actually a bit like US Global Entry and different - it is called EasyPass Registered Traveller Program and does still require a wet ink stamp, but facilitates using EasyPass gates - see here. As already noted, some countries like Italy have invested and decided to extend to e.g. UK nationals the use the e-gate and then get directed to an officer for any questions/stamp (again that is their choice to do so and the list of countries is also defined). I would also note that in its latest August 22 update France has followed suit and added the UK to the list of nations that can use their PARAF gates (in French).

As TomUK says, the point of EES as well as improving the shared Schengen Information System (SIS) in connection with ETIAS is to do away with wet ink stamping by shifting to a fully electronic record. That opens up wider use of e-gates, but again it is up to each country to define the basis.

Do you think that EES and ETIAS are only a temporary problem preventing Kent, Disneyland and south of France services? It does seem to me as a non legal person that unless France chooses to be stricter than the average EU member then it should only cause temporary problems for Eurostar. For non Brits using EES and ETIAS should be processed quicker than today and before brexit. EES and ETIAS seem to be designed to make things easier but are bound to have teething problems.

Personally I would prefer a situation where everyone has biometric travel documents and have been subject to a criminal background check at some point if they are entering the EU or UK or both. The technology exists to have both good border security and swift entry and exit controls. A few minutes before a 2-4 hour international train journey isn't a big deal. Its even less important for air and sea travel.