Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not 100% true. The Horsham/Dorking trains, Watford Junction to East Croydon and Caterham/Tattenham Corner trains are being stretched to their absolute limits in terms of overcrowding.

There has always been a few trains that got overcrowded and even with the pre covid service passengers would still cram on the busiest services rather than wait for the next one even on routes with 10m frequencies. We are going to have to get used to a few isolated trains being overcrowded as the price we pay to have a reasonable frequency all day long the industry cannot afford one stock journey trains anymore.

 

[PGAT]

Which replicates what happened pre covid no?

At least pre-covid there were loads of travel options. 6tph to Epsom from London, with additional peaks to Guildford and Dorking with none of this 5 coach nonsense.

Watford Junction-East Croydon went to Milton Keynes and was 8 coaches and had once again extra trains to Watford Junction and Shepherd's Bush which are probably never coming back.

4tph to Caterham and Coulsdon Town, as well as trains to Victoria. Most likely forever gone

 

[HamworthyGoods]

At least pre-covid there were loads of travel options. 6tph to Epsom from London, with additional peaks to Guildford and Dorking with none of this 5 coach nonsense.

Watford Junction-East Croydon went to Milton Keynes and was 8 coaches and had once again extra trains to Watford Junction and Shepherd's Bush which are probably never coming back.

4tph to Caterham and Coulsdon Town, as well as trains to Victoria. Most likely forever gone

I was asking about passenger numbers not numbers of services. Are the load factors on the services similar to before?

We all know passenger numbers have declined so the travel options will have reduced.

The railway is being asked to provide a similar ratio of capacity to passenger numbers as pre covid so is this what is being provided, eg the number of standing passengers on each train similar to pre covid.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was asking about passenger numbers not numbers of services. Are the load factors on the services similar to before?

We all know passenger numbers have declined so the travel options will have reduced.

The railway is being asked to provide a similar ratio of capacity to passenger numbers as pre covid so is this what is being provided, eg the number of standing passengers on each train similar to pre covid.

Even so, permanent cuts such as going from 10tph to 6tph London to Epsom - which is just outside busy Greater London - is drastic. I appreciate that's not Southern alone.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Even so, permanent cuts such as going from 10tph to 6tph London to Epsom - which is just outside busy Greater London - is drastic. I appreciate that's not Southern alone.

But the drop in Commuting has been drastic. That’s a 40% cut in service compared to many London Suburban routes both inside and outside Greater London that have seen 50% cuts with the service cut from 4tph to 2tph.

 

[PGAT]

But the drop in Commuting has been drastic. That’s a 40% cut in service compared to many London Suburban routes both inside and outside Greater London that have seen 50% cuts with the service cut from 4tph to 2tph.

Thing is, passenger numbers are not at 50% of pre-covid, and there's been an unexpected increase in OFF-PEAK travel which hasn't been accounted for in the timetables.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thing is, passenger numbers are not at 50% of pre-covid, and there's been an unexpected increase in OFF-PEAK travel which hasn't been accounted for in the timetables.

However the off-peak revenue (different to passenger numbers) seemingly didn’t justify the previous level of service as the 2tph were removed in the September timetable change at the Behest of the DfT.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thing is, passenger numbers are not at 50% of pre-covid, and there's been an unexpected increase in OFF-PEAK travel which hasn't been accounted for in the timetables.

it doesn't need to be its helped make better use of many trains that were running around with plenty of fresh air pre covid and quite frankly a railway that can run without having to resource the high peak should be a lot more economical its just that its going to take a few years to get there.

 

[louis97]

There aren't too few trains to run the service. The services have been cut back because there is less demand, both actual and expected, and there are enough trains to run the resulting services.

Whilst this may be somewhat true for a normal service, there ARE too few trains to run the service during special events (football, etc) and some engineering works (closures of lines serving depots, etc). This means it is far more challenging to provide increased capacity, or sometimes impossible, where the service is cut back because of reduced line capacity caused by engineering works. Combining special events with engineering works and you get a situation where because stock is now largely fully engaged until end of day (and spares are now a lot more limited) you cannot move all the stock you previously could somewhere it is accessible to provide extra capacity, of course you have to get it somewhere that has stabling capacity available too.

 

[Capvermell]

Which replicates what happened pre covid no?

No pre Covid trains to Horsham via Dorking always had plenty of seats on all services and were mainly 10 car trains except that perversely the 2325 to Horsham via Dorking had five cars even though it was always the busiest of the late evening trains by far.

Now going to Horsham via Dorking the 2325 from Victoria is mysteriously only a 4 car instead of a 5 car unit (all the other services are 5 cars, 8 cars or 10 cars) resulting in it being absolutely rammed full with lots of people standing in the rear two carriages two days ago (Thursday) when there were Rail Replacement Buses from Three Bridges to Horsham so all the Horsham passengers got on to the Horsham via Dorking train instead.

Tonight (Saturday) I was on what since 5th September has become the 1741 (used to be the 1725) final service of the day to Horsham via Dorking and it was again absolutely packed out with lots of people standing in the aisles because it was only a 5 car train on a service that is very busy indeed with Saturday shoppers and museum goers and also on top because on Saturday its the last train of the day to Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. Pre Covid this train was never at all full because it was probably an 8 car or 10 car and all the good burgers of Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge used to travel on the stopping trains terminating at Epsom.

Southern has removed about 89 separate semi fast to Horsham trains a week by running the Epsom services on down to Dorking and then they have also saved another 20 or so trains and train crew a week by doing away with the morning and evening weekday peak half hourly services between Dorking and Horsham but they haven't had the good grace to at least up all of the now likely very busy combined services to 8 car or 10 car or had the good grace to finally give us a Saturday evening service to the badlands south of Dorking like almost any other station in the South East of England that has direct services in to a London terminus seems to have. Although I would be prepared to compromise and accept a once every 2 hour service to Horsham via Dorking on both Saturday and Sunday from morning to late evening as that would require almost no more trains or train crew resources than the current hourly on Saturday until 5.41pm but would provide public transport to those who actually need it where it didn't previously exist.

I will accept that services to Horsham via Dorking were always previously pretty empty after Sutton and that even to Sutton they weren't that full but in return for DfT and Southern saving so many train crews and trains they could have give us something in return to seal the deal such as finally giving us trains from morning to late evening south of Dorking on both Saturday and Sunday, which now that these are only the slow services to Epsom extending on down to Horsham ought to be considerably lower cost to do. No Saturday evening or Sunday service is an archaic Beeching era concept (which is in fact when the Saturday evening and Sunday services were axed from Dorking to Horsham) that ceased to be relevant when most people stopped going to church. Also now that weekday peak volumes are way down Southern/GoAhead Group ought to be looking to restructure their services in order to be more focused on the weekend travelling customer......

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No pre Covid trains to Horsham via Dorking always had plenty of seats on all services and were mainly 10 car trains except that perversely the 2325 to Horsham via Dorking had five cars even though it was always the busiest of the late evening trains by far.

Now going to Horsham via Dorking the 2325 from Victoria is mysteriously only a 4 car instead of a 5 car unit (all the other services are 5 cars, 8 cars or 10 cars) resulting in it being absolutely rammed full with lots of people standing in the rear two carriages two days ago (Thursday) when there were Rail Replacement Buses from Three Bridges to Horsham so all the Horsham passengers got on to the Horsham via Dorking train instead.

Tonight (Saturday) I was on what since 5th September has become the 1741 (used to be the 1725) final service of the day to Horsham via Dorking and it was again absolutely packed out with lots of people standing in the aisles because it was only a 5 car train on a service that is very busy indeed with Saturday shoppers and museum goers and also on top because on Saturday its the last train of the day to Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. Pre Covid this train was never at all full because it was probably an 8 car or 10 car and all the good burgers of Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge used to travel on the stopping trains terminating at Epsom.

Southern has removed about 89 separate semi fast to Horsham trains a week by running the Epsom services on down to Dorking and then they have also saved another 20 or so trains and train crew a week by doing away with the morning and evening weekday peak half hourly services between Dorking and Horsham but they haven't had the good grace to at least up all of the now likely very busy combined services to 8 car or 10 car or had the good grace to finally give us a Saturday evening service to the badlands south of Dorking like almost any other station in the South East of England that has direct services in to a London terminus seems to have. Although I would be prepared to compromise and accept a once every 2 hour service to Horsham via Dorking on both Saturday and Sunday from morning to late evening as that would require almost no more trains or train crew resources than the current hourly on Saturday until 5.41pm but would provide public transport to those who actually need it where it didn't previously exist.

I will accept that services to Horsham via Dorking were always previously pretty empty after Sutton and that even to Sutton they weren't that full but in return for DfT and Southern saving so many train crews and trains they could have give us something in return to seal the deal such as finally giving us trains from morning to late evening south of Dorking on both Saturday and Sunday, which now that these are only the slow services to Epsom extending on down to Horsham ought to be considerably lower cost to do. No Saturday evening or Sunday service is an archaic Beeching era concept (which is in fact when the Saturday evening and Sunday services were axed from Dorking to Horsham) that ceased to be relevant when most people stopped going to church. Also now that weekday peak volumes are way down Southern/GoAhead Group ought to be looking to restructure their services in order to be more focused on the weekend travelling customer......

You have to remember the DfT/Treasury are in no mind currently to speculate to accumulate. If the TOC proposes some savings to fund some increments elsewhere like you are suggesting the DfT will simply instruct the TOC to do the saving.

 

[Capvermell]

You have to remember the DfT/Treasury are in no mind currently to speculate to accumulate. If the TOC proposes some savings to fund some increments elsewhere like you are suggesting the DfT will simply instruct the TOC to do the saving.

Doesn't the DfT received the revenue from the ticket income then. And if they do then why don't they look at the net operating costs per mile in terms of cost of operating services minus total income received on those services.

Surely even a state controlled and/or subsidised railway must also consider total operating costs minus ticket income received?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Doesn't the DfT received the revenue from the ticket income then. And if they do then why don't they look at the net operating costs per mile in terms of cost of operating services minus total income received on those services.

Surely even a state controlled and/or subsidised railway must also consider total operating costs minus ticket income received?

Currently revenue goes directly to Treasury and the TOCs receive an annually agreed budget with the DfT to cover costs. Hence the difficulty trying to spend to accumulate. Hopefully that will get resolved and things move forwards.

 

[DJS76]

The 6.14 from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking, Epsom and Sutton only 4 coaches today. Mondays tend to be a quieter commuting day but plenty of people being left behind on platforms this morning. Not the first time this has happened either since the changes / cuts.

 

[Capvermell]

The 6.14 from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking, Epsom and Sutton only 4 coaches today. Mondays tend to be a quieter commuting day but plenty of people being left behind on platforms this morning. Not the first time this has happened either since the changes / cuts.

Southern/GTR have also very contentiously axed what was the preceding 5.56am at Ockley (so 5.45am or so from Horsham) so in addition to merging the Horsham via Dorking train with the slow service from Epsom further up the line they have also reduced the train from 10 carriages to 4 carriages leading to I presume 300% more passengers wanting to use each seat on the four carriage train than on the 10 carriage ones. I understand various workers who have to start their jobs very early in the morning (including in the Police) are extremely unhappy about the deletion of this train. And the situation can only be worse than this on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday when more of the new part time work from home brigade also tend to go in to the office (as the higher number of cars parked at Ockley on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday also shows).

Quite why Southern are randomly running much shorter Electrostar trains (seemingly with no relationship to the level of use of those shortened trains) as well as having got rid of the drivers and OBS's needed to man them I'm not quite clear but I presume its all to do with the elderly rolling stock that has been got rid of down on the coast and using the Electrostar half trains we have lost north of Horsham via Dorking to provide those services.

I think making the trains this uncomfortable for people paying the highest long distance peak hour fares is going to be pretty unpopular, especially if they also plan to increase rail fares by 10% (obviously there will be huge pressure for them not to rise by this amount as people's pay has not gone up anywhere near this much and most of the 10% comes from food and energy price increases) as well.

Unfortunately you can't look up a whole day's worth of train length information at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley but the next two trains north and south at Ockley at 11.29am and 12.29am and 11.51am all shows as five carriage trains (and now I am aware of this issue I will keep an eye on that page and start taking screen shots during the day). Some services from Horsham via Dorking to Victoria still were 10 carriage trains post the changes on 5th September but it seems as time goes on train length is being shortened. And quite why the final 2325 to Horsham via Dorking is now a four carriage train rather than the previous five carriages when it is much the busiest of the later evening trains to Horsham via Dorking I don't know at all. It is also very busy indeed, as it was last Thursday (20th Oct), when trains between Three Bridges and Horsham are replaced by RRBs in the late evening due to engineering works on that line, resulting in trains via Dorking being the only trains to Horsham showing on the departure boards at Victoria (as Southern don't seem to have a way of showing a train that turns in to an RRB down route on the departure boards).

 

[Gareth4949]

Anyone know if real time trains for Jan 2023 on southern is now correct
If so it’s looks like the thameslink little Hampton service will now only go to London Bridge and not though the core but also potentially a Eastbourne to London Bridge service returning

 

[PGAT]

Anyone know if real time trains for Jan 2023 on southern is now correct
If so it’s looks like the thameslink little Hampton service will now only go to London Bridge and not though the core but also potentially a Eastbourne to London Bridge service returning

I think the TL timetable has been updated but I still think Southern is behind since some services to East Grinstead are still showing up as “Runs as Required”

 

[Gareth4949]

I think the TL timetable has been updated but I still think Southern is behind since some services to East Grinstead are still showing up as “Runs as Required”

Sorry can you confirm where I can see if it says “runs as required” on real time trains
Be good to see if GTR still use a 700 on the service from littlehampton to London Bridge assume they will

 

[SouthEastBuses]

What changes are happening from December that affect my local station (Horsham)?

 

[PGAT]

Sorry can you confirm where I can see if it says “runs as required” on real time trains

Realtime Trains | Departures from East Grinstead around 1142 on 19/12/2022

Train information at East Grinstead around 1142 on 19/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The ones that run as required are the ones not on the current Working Timetable.

What changes are happening from December that affect my local station (Horsham)?

I can't see any changes as of now

 

[Capvermell]

I can't see any changes as of now

That's because absolutely massive changes have already been implemented, especially those on September 5th completely altering service patterns from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking by abolishing the Semi Fasts and extending slow services to Epsom stopping at all stations all the way out to Horsham.

Also all Southern fast services up the Arun Valley corridor to London Bridge that ran in the morning and evening peaks have been completely eliminated and you can only now get to or from London Bridge from Horsham direct using Thameslink services starting at and terminating at Horsham. So you are out of luck if you want tables, wifi or power sockets to London Bridge from Horsham in Standard Class unless you know about the fact that the rear 1st Class Cabin on a Thameslink train is apparently declassified as 1st Class and so can be used for charging your mobile if you can get a seat. I have only been told the rear carriage 1st Class on a Thameslink is declassified by others and it may be untrue but I doubt that you would have an issue as long as you could show you were charging something at the time (because you couldn't do it in second class) and immediately agreed to move elsewhere if challenged on not having a first class ticket.

But as Thameslink trains are absolutely awful for long comfortable travel due to no tables, wifi or second class power sockets the loss of Southern rush services from Horsham to London Bridge in the morning and evening peaks is to be very much regretted.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the TL timetable has been updated but I still think Southern is behind since some services to East Grinstead are still showing up as “Runs as Required”

I suspect that is just reserving the path of trains that won't run.

 

[PGAT]

They will be removed in about a week or so when the timetable releases

 

[evergreenadam]

Trains to Eastbourne usually run as 8 coaches but finding a 12 isn't out of this world. Cooksbridge can only handle 6 coaches, but that's about it. For trains that go beyond Eastbourne, they pretty much always divide there and leave only 4 coaches for that portion.

12 coaches on summer Saturdays on the busiest VIC-EBN services for day trippers to the coast would be very welcome, plenty of people stand on the return journey in the evening.

 

[Capvermell]

Train lengths seem to be completely random on Victoria to Horsham via Epsom and Dorking services.

For instance www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley currently shows 8 carriages on the 2129 from Ockley to Victoria but 4 carriages on the 2151 and 5 carriage on the 2251 to Horsham.

Is there anywhere on the web that captures this train length information from Southern historically so that one can look at a run of train length information from day to day and see if train lengths are consistent from one day to the next on particular train departures from Ockley towards Victoria and Horsham?

I suppose it may be necessary to use some kind of screen scraping App or some kind of automated screen shot App to record a run of this data?

 

[Bikeman78]

Southern/GTR have also very contentiously axed what was the preceding 5.56am at Ockley (so 5.45am or so from Horsham) so in addition to merging the Horsham via Dorking train with the slow service from Epsom further up the line they have also reduced the train from 10 carriages to 4 carriages leading to I presume 300% more passengers wanting to use each seat on the four carriage train than on the 10 carriage ones.

Back in the day that train used to run empty from Horsham to Dorking to form the 06:14. I can't remember when it started running as a passenger train from Horsham. One snowy morning I blagged a ride on it because the Three Bridges route was blocked.

As regards binning the 455s, that was no doubt at the request of the DfT. It seems odd to bin so many units on Southern but meanwhile six class 315s remain to cover just one peak hour turn and several class 319s have been retained cover three peak pairs out of Euston. If they went in the bin, almost no one would notice.

 

[Capvermell]

Back in the day that train used to run empty from Horsham to Dorking to form the 06:14. I can't remember when it started running as a passenger train from Horsham. One snowy morning I blagged a ride on it because the Three Bridges route was blocked.

I would assume this must have been in at least pre December 2003 days as December 2003 was when the 2326 from Victoria to Dorking stopped terminating at Dorking and then running empty to Horsham and started running on to Horsham in passenger service calling at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. I lobbied Matt Ball at Connex (the Stakeholder Relations Manager) over several years over the reason why that train ran out of service from Dorking to Horsham every night past my home (I could always hear it) to which the initial answer was that Railtrack would charge Connex more per mile to run it in passenger service (although he probably could have come up with the argument that it would need a guard or OBS too except of course I suspect that person already travelled down to Horham anyway on the now out of passenger service train).

In November 2003 Matt Ball contacted me to tell me the 2326 from Victoria would now run to Horsham in passenger service from the new Dec 2003 timetable as Network Rail (who had just taken over from Railtrack) would no longer charge them any more per mile to run the train in passenger service through to Horsham So I suspect that may be when (2003) the early morning out of service train from Horsham to Dorking also became a passenger train. Although what I don't quite understand is why there seems to be no counterpart to the old 2326 out of service train on Mondays to Fridays running empty to Horsham still running on a Saturday night that could then become a late night Saturday theatre special passenger train. It would also be way more sensible to run trains every 2 hours from Dorking to Horsham on a Saturday and Sunday than the current daft arrangement of hourly between 8am and 6pm only on Saturday then nothing on Saturday evening or Sunday.

As regards binning the 455s, that was no doubt at the request of the DfT. It seems odd to bin so many units on Southern but meanwhile six class 315s remain to cover just one peak hour turn and several class 319s have been retained cover three peak pairs out of Euston. If they went in the bin, almost no one would notice.

But what does anyone working at the DfT actually know about rolling stock or its reliability or suitability to provide train services? I'm kind of assuming that none of the DfT people know anything at all about trains or passenger transport needs and that instead all they know about is a budget set by government and making arbitrary changes to train services that will keep the total cost under the proposed budget cap. Although presumably they get some advice from Southern (GTR) about which rolling stock it makes more sense to keep and which it makes more sense to get rid of?

 

[Capvermell]

I see the 2125 and 2225 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking tonight are both 5 carriage trains whereas the 2225 certainly used to be a 10 carriage train pre 5th September. So it looks like Southern are embarked on a program of reducing train lengths from Horsham to Dorking via Epsom although that still leaves the mystery of why the 2325 is most unsuitably a 4 carriage train when all the earlier ones are either 5 carriages or longer and the 2325 used to be a 5 carriage train before 5th September.

Also can anyone explain to me why the Victoria to Horsham via Dorking all stations services consolidated with the Epsom Slow services now always seem to mainly come in to and out of Platform 13 at Victoria, even though that's a Gatwick Express platform? Previously the 2325 from Victoria to Horsham nearly always ran out of Platform 9 but now it always runs out of Platform 13 at the end of a long out of service but lit train (probably at least 8 carriages) greatly confusing customers going to Platform 13 to get on the 2325 to Horsham and vastly increasing your chance of missing that train if you are running slightly late or are not aware that an out of service train comes before it as you head through the barriers to the platform.

 

[DJS76]

At Victoria now, 3 of the next 7 trains cancelled and 3 of the services that are actually running are only 4 coaches.

 

[JonathanH]

At Victoria now, 3 of the next 7 trains cancelled and 3 of the services that are actually running are only 4 coaches.

I doubt that is due to shortage of stock. At least one of them (the Reigate service) is booked for a 4 coach train.