Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[D6130]

which would allow 158s to take over the West Highland Line and most other services that currently use 156s.

I thought that 158s could not run on the West Highland Line because of clearance issues between their plug doors and the curved island platforms?

 

[XAM2175]

I thought that 158s could not run on the West Highland Line because of clearance issues between their plug doors and the curved island platforms?

The article acknowledges that infrastructure work will be required (without saying exactly what), and that the intent is for it to be done at some point. Remember that any 158 cascade is a bare minimum of four years away, and probably closer to six given that it relies on BEMUs making the 158s available.

 

[Wyrleybart]

2035 (verses 2040 for anything in the DfT's remit).



ScotRail's service delivery director gave an interview with Richard Clinnick last December that appeared in February's edition of Rail Express. If we trust it as being a vaguely credible indication of general intent, than ScotRail's broad-strokes fleet strategy for the next 12 years is to keep both the 170s and HSTs into the 2030s, with the 170s "probably" being the last pure-diesel fleet to go.

The first replacement order that SR is expecting to make is that for the Strathclyde suburban network - a mix of pure-electrics (to replace 318s and 320s, and maybe 334s) and battery-electric units to replace 156s on Barrhead and East Kilbride. Depending on exact timing, that BEMU order might also cover some of the other electrifications, which would allow 158s to take over the West Highland Line and most other services that currently use 156s.

Perhaps unsurprisingly little is said about the HSTs long-term future, other than that they're currently putting the power cars through G-exams at Haymarket (involving a "major rebuild and component replacement"), and that a steering group between SR, Angel Trains, ASLEF, and the RMT has been convened to work through the post-Carmont safety concerns (talks are reported as being "constructive"). There is also an investigation of some sorts underway as to making more room at Inverness for 2+5 sets, which can currently only use two platforms there.

(probably worth nothing at this point that this is the traction and rolling-stock subforum, so anything further on this topic might be better in a new speculative thread.)

Here is a thought. There are 30 twelve year old, four-car EMUs sat around sidings going mouldy. Howabout Scotrail converting their HST power cars to multi with the 379s and supplying train supply but not traction supply to them. The power cars could then act as tractors between Inverness and Dunblane, and between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

I hear Scotrail are only intending to use a maximum of 15 of their 25 trailers sets in traffic

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Here is a thought. There are 30 twelve year old, four-car EMUs sat around sidings going mouldy. Howabout Scotrail converting their HST power cars to multi with the 379s and supplying train supply but not traction supply to them. The power cars could then act as tractors between Inverness and Dunblane, and between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

I hear Scotrail are only intending to use a maximum of 15 of their 25 trailers sets in traffic

Why 15 out of 25? Surely they don't need 10 sets spare?

 

[12LDA28C]

No-one is chasing the 222s (unless they are offered for such a cheap price to XC that they out-do the 20 spare 221s), and the number of units lines up well.

I wouldn't be so sure about that

 

[XAM2175]

Here is a thought. There are 30 twelve year old, four-car EMUs sat around sidings going mouldy. Howabout Scotrail converting their HST power cars to multi with the 379s and supplying train supply but not traction supply to them. The power cars could then act as tractors between Inverness and Dunblane, and between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

With respect, this is 1) exceptionally far-fetched for a number of reasons, and 2) speculative - and thus off-topic here - in any case.

I hear Scotrail are only intending to use a maximum of 15 of their 25 trailers sets in traffic

They currently diagram for only 15 of them, yes. I can't speak for long-term intent though.

 

[John Bishop]

Why 15 out of 25? Surely they don't need 10 sets spare?

Because they struggle even to facilitate this level of service on the Fleet most of the time. Anything higher is pie in the sky. There would simply be too much service disruption.

 

[Ex-controller]

Basically a replacement fleet is required to replace the HSTs as soon as possible. Whether that is more 170s or 158s from elsewhere, or another type that we’ve not seen in service in Scotland yet (ie the 222s or 185s), something else is desperately required.

It’s not just impacting the long distance routes that HSTs operate over. Every time a class 170 is stepped up to cover, it typically impacts upon the routes where these trains operate, which is usually Fife or the Borders as these are the only areas which routinely see them operate in multiple now.

Otherwise a temporary measure would be to withdraw the Aberdeen-Montrose and Dundee-Arbroath locals off peak so that these stations could be again included in the Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen schedules. Likely harsh particularly at the north end of the route, but it may make things a bit more sustainable for a while as it would make at least 4 additional class 158s available again for use on the rest of the network.

 

[WAB]

Why should Scotland make do with more second hand trains?

Because it is more environmentally friendly than scrapping units with another 15 years or so in them and lugging around electric motors on a mainly diesel route for the foreseeable?

The new InterCity fleet looks like it'll be in service, subject to funding, by 2035. Ten years is a long time for the HSTs to cling on, and that's only if ScotGov don't delay funding for what would be the final phase of a 100% renewal of the diesel fleet. Some sort of interim solution is needed unless you want to cut back the InterCity services and gamble on 156s and 158s continuing to hold up?

 

[millemille]

With respect, this is 1) exceptionally far-fetched for a number of reasons, and 2) speculative - and thus off-topic here - in any case.


They currently diagram for only 15 of them, yes. I can't speak for long-term intent though.

They got to 20 out of 25 in the May timetable change.

 

[InOban]

My understanding is
1) As stated above, they are having a major overhaul which is intended to address the recurrent failures. I think that this includes some sort of improved wheel slip protection.
2) For obvious reasons, mainly strike-related (remember that the NR strikes shut down signals, even if everyone else is at work ), passenger numbers are still well down and insufficient to justify 4/5 coach HSTs.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is to discuss the Scotrail HSTs as they are running at the moment. If anyone wants to speculate as to what should replace them then they are welcome to start a new thread in the speculative section of the forum.

 

[MattRat]

2) For obvious reasons, mainly strike-related (remember that the NR strikes shut down signals, even if everyone else is at work ), passenger numbers are still well down and insufficient to justify 4/5 coach HSTs.

I've seen so many people talk about passenger numbers being down, and yet we still see insane overcrowding.

 

[hexagon789]

I've seen so many people talk about passenger numbers being down, and yet we still see insane overcrowding.

They are down, ScotRail still have the lowest recovery of all TOCs.

 

[Meerkat]

I've seen so many people talk about passenger numbers being down, and yet we still see insane overcrowding.

Haven’t services been cut too though?

 

[ld0595]

Haven’t services been cut too though?

A good few services aren't back to pre-Covid frequencies. Cathcart Circle, Neilston, Ayr, Maryhill, Shotts and Edinburgh - Glasgow (via Falkirk). Not sure about Intercity services but I'm sure there will be people put off taking them altogether as a result of poor connections.

 

[Morayshire]

I've seen so many people talk about passenger numbers being down, and yet we still see insane overcrowding.

Really? My experience heading north into and south out of Aberdeen is the exact opposite on Scotrail. Trains which were once full and standing by Stonehaven pre covid are now empty enough that no one has to share a seat in the morning.

In the evening, my regular train home is a hst which could run as a 170 and it would still have empty seats. Again pre covid, the 170 would be full or nearly full even before it left Aberdeen

Again, the above is my experience since returning full time to commuting by train in and out of Aberdeen

 

[Alanko]

I've noticed an uptick in HSTs on Edinburgh - Inverness services since Christmas. 1H13 1033 Edinburgh to Inverness was a 170 + 158 combo this morning, however.

 

[hexagon789]

I've noticed an uptick in HSTs on Edinburgh - Inverness services since Christmas. 1H13 1033 Edinburgh to Inverness was a 170 + 158 combo this morning, however.

1H13 is booked units.

 

[Alanko]

1H13 is booked units.

Ah ok. What is the reason for this? It's an off peak service or good for rotating 158s between depots?

 

[hexagon789]

Ah ok. What is the reason for this? It's an off peak service or good for rotating 158s between depots?

Just not been converted to HST, it forms off the 0644 ex-Inverness, and after arriving back from Edinburgh works the 1544 Inverness-Glasgow currently.

Historically the 103x was a pair of 158s in the summer to provide extra cycle and luggage space over a single 170, as it was the busiest off-peak Edinburgh-Inverness service.

 

[Brubulus]

How busy is the Inverness route actually as I'm pretty sure a 3 car 170 is fine, especially past Perth. The case for Aberdeen is very diffrent and 4 or 5 cars are definetly justified. The crowding is very bad when a 170 turns up so a medium term replacement for the HST is definetly needed, especially given the astronomical cost of their operation.

 

[hexagon789]

How busy is the Inverness route actually as I'm pretty sure a 3 car 170 is fine, especially past Perth. The case for Aberdeen is very diffrent and 4 or 5 cars are definetly justified. The crowding is very bad when a 170 turns up so a medium term replacement for the HST is definetly needed, especially given the astronomical cost of their operation.

1H11 loads pretty well in my experience; not sure about Edinburgh services. I imagine 1H05 is still fairly quiet, it always used to be, but it is still booked a 170 anyway.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ah ok. What is the reason for this? It's an off peak service or good for rotating 158s between depots?

And a 5 car 158/170 combo provides more capacity than a 5 car HST.

 

[hexagon789]

And a 5 car 158/170 combo provides more capacity than a 5 car HST.

Only 12 seats more in Std...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Only 12 seats more in Std...

Still 12 more seats with 5 vehicles of train instead of 7 for an HST…

 

[BRX]

Those stating authoritively and confidently that they are "only fit for the bin", I wonder if they have any particular insight into the details of the current situation, beyond what any of us as external observers have?

Whether or not the entire programme, in retrospect/hindsight was a good idea, is not really relevant to what makes sense now. It does appear that many things were bungled in the initial implementation, but surely that actually makes it more plausible that performance can be improved substantially by overhaul/modification now. The modifications appear to include things that really ought to have been part of the original rebuild.

The cost and disruption associated with these modifications - at this moment in time - have to be compared with the cost and disruption that would be associated with the alternatives, don't they?

If the HSTs can see things through to the point where electrification has proceeded further and appropriate new stock can be procured at that point, that seems a perfectly reasonable approach.

 

[Ex-controller]

Ah ok. What is the reason for this? It's an off peak service or good for rotating 158s between depots?

170s and 158s are necessary on some services between Aberdeen/Inverness and the Central belt, partly because there’s not enough HST diagrams to cover all services - there was never intended to be - and as a way of transferring units in service to be presented at Inverness, Haymarket depots etc.

Both mid morning services north and south between Edinburgh/Inverness are scheduled for this formation, I believe they’re also among the most popular services.

A good few services aren't back to pre-Covid frequencies. Cathcart Circle, Neilston, Ayr, Maryhill, Shotts and Edinburgh - Glasgow (via Falkirk). Not sure about Intercity services but I'm sure there will be people put off taking them altogether as a result of poor connections.

Agreed on the routes not brought back to pre-Covid frequencies - Inverclyde is another one. On the longer distance routes there is definite over provision of capacity as other posts are implying wrt loadings etc. That’s all well and good providing this additional capacity, especially if you’re trying to encourage usage, but it seems a bit odd to then claim poverty as the reason why long standing commuter routes are not returning to their previous frequencies.

There’s no logic in providing all these services between Arbroath and Dundee off peak, yet there’s routes in the suburbs of Glasgow that they’re showing no interest in recovering. If I was a cynic I’d say there was a political aspect to all this.

 

[BRX]

Passengers seeming to enjoy them is no small thing though (especially given what appears to be a lacklustre effort to make the passenger experience as good as possible). I've done several journeys on them over the past coupler of months. None of these have suffered any major issues and all have been more comfortable than a 158, 170 or an Azuma. When traveling London to/from Inverness my first choice is now a change onto a Scotrail HST at Edinburgh rather than taking the direct LNER service.

 

[_toommm_]

Isn’t the immediate worry that there’s a call to stop driving them four years after Carmont?