Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[driverd]

Isn’t there a real risk point in the latter part of this decade when presumably 50+ year old stock will further degrade in performance and other options such as single DMUs will also be approaching end of life ?

No.

The HST sets are mechanically the youngest units in the fleet. The power cars in particular were rebuilt with the MTU mods around 2005. The modular design of DMUs means they also cycle out mechanical components on a very regular basis, so you're only really talking about an aged body shell - and this can be patched (or run round with visible corrosion holes in it, depending on the will of the operator...). I suspect (though, no doubt others can confirm) that the main HST issues stem from a refurbishment/door project that was specified and budgeted as a short term solution, rather than a major investment.

Would seem a high possibility of a perfect storm.

Pretty unlikely. Actually, in most cases the opposite is true. Look at the issues at TfW and WMT (and by extension, EMR), where the fleet plan is based on wholesale replacement and introduction of a new fleet. Teething issues are far more likely to throw an almighty spanner in the works. The question with the HSTs, for me anyway, is are the current problems essentially on-going teething issues?

 

[hexagon789]

Tuesday 29th - 12/15

HA01 (43182/43131) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

HA15 (43012/43026) - 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A82, 1T64

HA17 (43151/43181) - 1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

HA18 (43142/43130) - 1A77, 1B80, 1H29

HA19 (43037/43125) - 1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

HA20 (43150/43137) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98

HA26 (43126/43139) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98


*5-car sets

 

[jagardner1984]

The question with the HSTs, for me anyway, is are the current problems essentially on-going teething issues?

Is there another train fleet of any age which, over 4 years after the first train was in revenue service (15/10/18) has a fleet availability close to the 48% achieved on Tuesday ?

 

[hexagon789]

Update to last post:

Tuesday 29th
HA15 failed at Inverness after working 1H11. HA20 failed at Glasgow QS after working 1T26.


Yesterday and today:

Wednesday 30th
10 out. Some diagram alterations and HA19 failed at Aberdeen Clayhills before taking up its diagram.

Thursday 1st
10 out. Several ad hoc diagram alterations.

Friday 2nd
10/15

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

When the other HST operators (MML, East Coast, XC, Grand Central, NR) did it, the payback was through increased time between bogie overhauls. In some cases the increase was from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 miles between overhauls. Why GWR and ScotRail both decided against is a complete mystery.

Personally to me it makes sense as the lathe can be used on multiple different types of trains and provides a increase in ability and capacity, where as fitting the newer WSP only benifits the HSTs

 

[43096]

Personally to me it makes sense as the lathe can be used on multiple different types of trains and provides a increase in ability and capacity, where as fitting the newer WSP only benifits the HSTs

Say what? So you would not fit upgraded WSP to the HSTs even though it reduces long-term maintenance costs and means you have more trains in service than sat waiting for the lathe. You do realise that the objective is to have trains in service earning revenue, don’t you?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Say what? So you would not fit upgraded WSP to the HSTs even though it reduces long-term maintenance costs and means you have more trains in service than sat waiting for the lathe. You do realise that the objective is to have trains in service earning revenue, don’t you?

Yes but the cost benifit analysis comes in to it and the HST are not here for the long term so why invest in the actual trains when a slightly higher investment gets you a longer term benefit

 

[XAM2175]

Say what? So you would not fit upgraded WSP to the HSTs even though it reduces long-term maintenance costs and means you have more trains in service than sat waiting for the lathe. You do realise that the objective is to have trains in service earning revenue, don’t you?

They appear to be under the impression that it's a choice of fit WSP or have the wheel lathe.

 

[hexagon789]

They appear to be under the impression that it's a choice of fit WSP or have the wheel lathe.

Even with the best modern WSP equipment in the world, you'd still want a lathe or several...

 

[millemille]

Even with the best modern WSP equipment in the world, you'd still want a lathe or several...

But the difference is your turning changes from unplanned, for flats and cavities, to planned, wear. Much easier to plan and deliver one than the other and consequently not impact upon vehicle availability.

 

[43096]

Even with the best modern WSP equipment in the world, you'd still want a lathe or several...

Yes, but you’d rather have sets in service than stood down for an unscheduled visit to the lathe.

 

[hexagon789]

But the difference is your turning changes from unplanned, for flats and cavities, to planned, wear. Much easier to plan and deliver one than the other and consequently not impact upon vehicle availability.

Of course and that's why the two in combination is the ideal option.

I was replying more to the suggestion that you only want one or the other and not both.

 

[route101]

Do the Scotrail HSTs still run on Fife Circle services?

 

[hexagon789]

Do the Scotrail HSTs still run on Fife Circle services?

No, they haven't since before the May timetable change.


To anyone:
Would reposting of the current diagrams be of use/interest to forum members?

 

[Speed43125]

No, they haven't since before the May timetable change.


To anyone:
Would reposting of the current diagrams be of use/interest to forum members?

I've certainly been following them as you've been posting.

 

[43096]

Yes but the cost benifit analysis comes in to it and the HST are not here for the long term so why invest in the actual trains when a slightly higher investment gets you a longer term benefit

How are you defining "long term"? The HSTs are on lease until 2030.

 

[BRX]

No, they haven't since before the May timetable change.


To anyone:
Would reposting of the current diagrams be of use/interest to forum members?

Yes it would.

 

[73128]

With GWR now announcing that they will withdraw their HSTs in a year, perhaps ASLEF will now put more pressure on ScotRail to do the same. DMUs will be thin on the ground for lease after this date.

How easily can MK3-HST coaches be modified to run with locomotives other than class 43s?

GWR don't seem to want to, but are being forced to by the Dft to save money (and presumably cut services or service lengths somewhere unless something else is arriving from somewhere)

 

[hexagon789]

Yes it would.

MON-SAT (15 diagrams)

Diagram 1
1B70, 1A81, 1T50

Diagram 2
1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

Diagram 3
1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

Diagram 4
1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

Diagram 5
1A04, 1B74, 1H17, 1T92, 5T93 (SX)

Diagram 6
1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

Diagram 7
1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

Diagram 8
1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

Diagram 9
1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

Diagram 10
1T06, 1A35, 1B84, 1H25

Diagram 11
5A45, 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

Diagram 12
1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

Diagram 13
1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

Diagram 14
1A77, 1B80, 1H29

Diagram 15
5H07 (MO), 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98



SUNDAYS (13 diagrams)

Diagram 1
1H45, 1B54, 5B54

Diagram 2
1T76, 1A86, 1T85, 1A93

Diagram 3
1A81, 1T82, 1A90, 1T88

Diagram 4
1T77, 1A97, 1T86, 1A95

Diagram 5
1B52, 1H43

Diagram 6
1H09, 1T72

Diagram 7
1A52, 1H35, 1B62

Diagram 8
5A65, 1A65, 1B73

Diagram 9
1B44

Diagram 10
1H13, 5H13

Diagram 11
1A87, 1B64

Diagram 12
1A99

Diagram 13
1H39

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

How are you defining "long term"? The HSTs are on lease until 2030.

Having done cost benifit analysis in my previous work , your planning 20 to 30 years down line , if not longer i.e. floor fridges your planning 20 years , cold room 30 years .
10 year planning for technology like hand held terminals

 

[route101]

MON-SAT (15 diagrams)

Diagram 1
1B70, 1A81, 1T50

Diagram 2
1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

Diagram 3
1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

Diagram 4
1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

Diagram 5
1A04, 1B74, 1H17, 1T92, 5T93 (SX)

Diagram 6
1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

Diagram 7
1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

Diagram 8
1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

Diagram 9
1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

Diagram 10
1T06, 1A35, 1B84, 1H25

Diagram 11
5A45, 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

Diagram 12
1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

Diagram 13
1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

Diagram 14
1A77, 1B80, 1H29

Diagram 15
5H07 (MO), 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98



SUNDAYS (13 diagrams)

Diagram 1
1H45, 1B54, 5B54

Diagram 2
1T76, 1A86, 1T85, 1A93

Diagram 3
1A81, 1T82, 1A90, 1T88

Diagram 4
1T77, 1A97, 1T86, 1A95

Diagram 5
1B52, 1H43

Diagram 6
1H09, 1T72

Diagram 7
1A52, 1H35, 1B62

Diagram 8
5A65, 1A65, 1B73

Diagram 9
1B44

Diagram 10
1H13, 5H13

Diagram 11
1A87, 1B64

Diagram 12
1A99

Diagram 13
1H39

Thanks, though needs to work out the headcodes!

 

[43096]

Having done cost benifit analysis in my previous work , your planning 20 to 30 years down line , if not longer i.e. floor fridges your planning 20 years , cold room 30 years .
10 year planning for technology like hand held terminals

None of which is relevant to fitting new WSP equipment to HSTs! It is quite a quick payback as it extends bogie life: the ability to get from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 miles as a result is a significant saving.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, though needs to work out the headcodes!

RTT will do that for you!

If anyone wasn't aware, you can just type headcodes into the general search bar and it will find the service(s) to which they apply.

Alternatively, from December, ScotRail's own timetables show which services are booked 17C.

 

[kkong]

Alternatively, from December, ScotRail's own timetables show which services are booked 17C.

You can also seem them at the link below.

First Class Train Tickets

When you next travel with us between Scotland's cities, make it a First Class ticket and travel in style. Whether you’re travelling for work or leisure, a seat in First Class gives you quieter surroundings, a comfier seat and more space to get on with your day. You also get more window space –...

www.scotrail.co.uk

Whether that page is kept up-to-date is another matter!

 

[hexagon789]

You can also seem them at the link below.

First Class Train Tickets

When you next travel with us between Scotland's cities, make it a First Class ticket and travel in style. Whether you’re travelling for work or leisure, a seat in First Class gives you quieter surroundings, a comfier seat and more space to get on with your day. You also get more window space –...

www.scotrail.co.uk

Whether that page is kept up-to-date is another matter!

Interesting, I hadn't realised that existed!

Looks up to date to me.

 

[Clansman]

New announcement recordings seem to have been rolled out.

"If you see something that doesn't look right" announcement has been re-recorded in a different tone and a much slower pace. "See it, say it, sorted" also added to the end of it - as well as an additional announcement for "validating smartcards before boarding".

 

[Railperf]

None of which is relevant to fitting new WSP equipment to HSTs! It is quite a quick payback as it extends bogie life: the ability to get from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 miles as a result is a significant saving.

Does it improve acceleration and braking.

 

[43096]

Does it improve acceleration and braking.

It improves them in the sense that it makes much better use of the available adhesion. It also improves the ride for passengers: there's much reduced coupler snatching as the WSP backs off the power and re-applies it (the original system was, shall we say, fairly agricultural in that regard).

Neville Hill had it down to a fine art: it was rare to experience a wheelflat, even during leaf-fall season, on their fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

Does it improve acceleration and braking.

It improves the ability to use higher braking steps without fear of inducing a prolonged slide; I experienced slide activity at low speed entering Perth Station in Mid-October. We stopped fine, but I could feel the WSP working and we came to a hard stop - the brake was no eased and in fact I felt may have been increased a step shortly before we stopped. We also had a less significant spot of WSP activity entering Pitlochry but at higher speed, for less time and the brake was eased this time.

I understand the FGW 'Step 3' max instructions were derived in part from the lack of improved WSP.

 

[Clansman]

Interesting, I hadn't realised that existed!

Looks up to date to me.

On the 170 first class part; "A quieter carriage with 16 or 18 seats". Somebody hasn't done their homework!