Do not travel warning from Chiltern!

[Energy]

Chiltern had some trains starting from Banbury to London but I guess some fans would of driven to there as it's a short run down the M40 so I didn't want to risk those.

I believe those trains are normally there? Some like the Wembley to Warwick Parkway are specials.

 

[Howardh]

One issue with "the most valuable game in world football" is the kick off time. Sky want it going out in prime teatime slot and they call the shots with the EFL. With ET, pens, joining in with the post match celebrations a 4.45 kick off turns into post 8pm leaving the ground. Getting out and to the train and you're looking at 8.30 without a queue. It puts a lot of pressure on fans, railway staff, stewards, police when everyone is getting anxious about seeing home that night. Been there, t-shirt worn.
Until someone has the cojones to stand up to Sky - "think of the fans" - and say it's either 3pm or you can have a televisual spectacle without supporters - see what sort of TV that makes for - it is always going to be a problem. Anyone for a massed boycott next year?

If anyone "thought of the fans" the Sheffield/Barnsley game would have been at Elland Road or Hillsborough. Why we have to drag nearly 100,000 the length of the country on a bank holiday adding to the stress on the motorways and railways I simply give in.

Frankly not only football fans but the department of Transport, emergency organisations (ambulance/police/breakdown/rail companies) should say "we're overloaded, stop football's big games on Bank Holiday weekends". Or at least dragging them down to an already packed London.

 

[Bantamzen]

If anyone "thought of the fans" the Sheffield/Barnsley game would have been at Elland Road or Hillsborough. Why we have to drag nearly 100,000 the length of the country on a bank holiday adding to the stress on the motorways and railways I simply give in.

Frankly not only football fans but the department of Transport, emergency organisations (ambulance/police/breakdown/rail companies) should say "we're overloaded, stop football's big games on Bank Holiday weekends". Or at least dragging them down to an already packed London.

Erm, Hillsborough is Sheffield Wednesday's ground so that might not have been exactly fair. And besides both these grounds only have capacity at around 40K, there will be at least 60K at Wembley.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I went to the Man U v Brighton FA Cup semi final last month (why semi finals are held at Wembley is a conversation for a football forum) and ended up booking parking at Wembley Central shopping centre for £12.50. As there were four of us in a Tesla we probably saved a fortune coming up from the south coast. This was partially because there was no service between Littlehampton and Brighton that day due to scheduled engineering works.

If people have to make alternative plans when making a journey that isn't convenient for the rail industry then the rail industry shouldn't be surprised when people make alternative plans when there are trains that need filling.

 

[Bartsimho]

If anyone "thought of the fans" the Sheffield/Barnsley game would have been at Elland Road or Hillsborough. Why we have to drag nearly 100,000 the length of the country on a bank holiday adding to the stress on the motorways and railways I simply give in.

Frankly not only football fans but the department of Transport, emergency organisations (ambulance/police/breakdown/rail companies) should say "we're overloaded, stop football's big games on Bank Holiday weekends". Or at least dragging them down to an already packed London.

Fans make the exception when it's at Wembley due to the special nature of it.

Also the Bank Holiday Weekend the EFL likes as it can have all 3 leagues play their games.

It's a case of planning for capacity with special events something the industry is just really poor at.

 

[Falcon1200]

If anyone "thought of the fans" the Sheffield/Barnsley game would have been at Elland Road or Hillsborough.

And today's League 2 Play-off final between Stockport and Carlisle could, and should, have been in the north west; It was noticeable how many empty seats there were at Wembley, so ground capacity would not have been an issue.

(Of course, regarding yesterday's game, it was only known when the semi-finals had concluded who would actually be going to Wembley; It could have been a Middlesbrough/Sunderland match, which would have presented its own, different, transportation issues......)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And today's League 2 Play-off final between Stockport and Carlisle could, and should, have been in the north west; It was noticeable how many empty seats there were at Wembley, so ground capacity would not have been an issue.

(Of course, regarding yesterday's game, it was only known when the semi-finals had concluded who would actually be going to Wembley; It could have been a Middlesbrough/Sunderland match, which would have presented its own, different, transportation issues......)

Having attended a play-off final that was moved from Wembley (in 2011, as the Champions League final was being held there) I'm very much against this. Getting to Old Trafford on a Sunday was only marginally easier than getting to Wembley, though quicker and cheaper, and the match just didn't have the same sense of occasion about it. Perhaps I'd feel different if we'd won that game, but for that you'd have to ask Peterborough United fans... and I can't imagine they were particularly chuffed about having to get trains from Peterborough to Manchester.

The Cardiff finals a decade earlier were a bit easier, though had the added bonus of class 37 haulage!

 

[North-Valiant]

And today's League 2 Play-off final between Stockport and Carlisle could, and should, have been in the north west; It was noticeable how many empty seats there were at Wembley, so ground capacity would not have been an issue.

(Of course, regarding yesterday's game, it was only known when the semi-finals had concluded who would actually be going to Wembley; It could have been a Middlesbrough/Sunderland match, which would have presented its own, different, transportation issues......)

Playing that match at the Etihad would have made a lot sense

 

[zwk500]

Playing that match at the Etihad would have made a lot sense

Not for the FA, who'd make a lot less on the hospitality.

 

[43066]

Erm, Hillsborough is Sheffield Wednesday's ground so that might not have been exactly fair. And besides both these grounds only have capacity at around 40K, there will be at least 60K at Wembley.

Until reading that I’d always imagined Hillsborough was in Liverpool! You can probably tell from that I’m not an avid sports fan!

 

[londonbridge]

One issue with "the most valuable game in world football" is the kick off time. Sky want it going out in prime teatime slot and they call the shots with the EFL. With ET, pens, joining in with the post match celebrations a 4.45 kick off turns into post 8pm leaving the ground. Getting out and to the train and you're looking at 8.30 without a queue. It puts a lot of pressure on fans, railway staff, stewards, police when everyone is getting anxious about seeing home that night. Been there, t-shirt worn.
Until someone has the cojones to stand up to Sky - "think of the fans" - and say it's either 3pm or you can have a televisual spectacle without supporters - see what sort of TV that makes for - it is always going to be a problem. Anyone for a massed boycott next year?

In the original announcement the Championship playoff final was actually scheduled for tomorrow, (Monday) but a couple of months ago it was quietly moved to yesterday (Saturday) with no explanation given. Today was also the last round of games in both the Premier League and the WSL, until the WSL games were moved to yesterday to avoid a clash. They were played at 14:30 (I think, may have been 14:00) with the Championship final at 16:45.

When the regular season ended there was the possibility of the Championship final being Sunderland vs Middlesbrough. An additional complication was the fact that Newcastle were playing away at Chelsea in todays Premier League games. Social media was awash with suggestions that if the final WAS Sunderland vs Borough, the police would move it to an earlier kick off time, or it would be moved to Old Trafford, or the Chelsea game would be moved (except all Premier league games had to kickoff at the same time, being the last round of games). There were also the usual nonsense responses, including the fact that Sky wouldn’t allow the police to move the playoff game……in the event, as we know, neither Sunderland nor Borough qualified for the final, but imagine if all three North East teams had ended up in London over the weekend….

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Until reading that I’d always imagined Hillsborough was in Liverpool! You can probably tell from that I’m not an avid sports fan!

Your post makes a bit more sense in that context... though Liverpool would still be an awkward choice of "neutral" venue for two teams from South Yorkshire.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's a case of planning for capacity with special events something the industry is just really poor at.

And what should Chiltern have done differently, in your opinion? As for the WCML it was unfortunate that various issues were encountered on the day but they could not have been predicted or planned for.

 

[North-Valiant]

Not for the FA, who'd make a lot less on the hospitality.

the FA could rent the stadium out for other non sporting events that would pull much more than the 33k that were watching Carlisle and Stockport today

 

[43066]

Your post makes a bit more sense in that context... though Liverpool would still be an awkward choice of "neutral" venue for two teams from South Yorkshire.

I think it must be because most of the victims of the Hillsborough disaster were Liverpool fans, and that has created the association in my mind.

 

[zwk500]

the FA could rent the stadium out for other non sporting events that would pull much more than the 33k that were watching Carlisle and Stockport today

Not in quick succession between the Championship and League One finals. And even in League Two, there are clubs who could have pulled in more than the 33k combined. But stadiums don't really make the big bucks from the masses, but the hospitality suites. ISTR it was revealed at some point that the hospitality revenue from the new Arsenal Stadium (the Emirates) was bigger on it's own than the total revenue from Highbury. Lots of corporate box holders at Wembley will use the League 2 final as an excuse for a bank holiday weekend jolly, even as neutrals. Wine lists are far more important than terrace capacity in modern stadia.

I think it must be because most of the victims of the Hillsborough disaster were Liverpool fans, and that has created the association in my mind.

Yes, the tragic match was Liverpool FC vs Nottingham Forest, but being played at a neutral ground as it was an FA Cup Semi-Final (before they started using Wembley for those as well). Hillsborough was a relatively large ground at the time (and is still, tbf) as Sheffield Wednesday were in the First Division. Sheffield was also conveniently located for both Liverpool and Nottingham fans.

 

[North-Valiant]

Not in quick succession between the Championship and League One finals. And even in League Two, there are clubs who could have pulled in more than the 33k combined. But stadiums don't really make the big bucks from the masses, but the hospitality suites. ISTR it was revealed at some point that the hospitality revenue from the new Arsenal Stadium (the Emirates) was bigger on it's own than the total revenue from Highbury. Lots of corporate box holders at Wembley will use the League 2 final as an excuse for a bank holiday weekend jolly, even as neutrals. Wine lists are far more important than terrace capacity in modern stadia.

Surely the corporate box holders would have had a jolly at the other two, bigger, games?

And surely they can also have a jolly watching, for example, boxing?

And I agree that there was a coupe fo clubs in league 2 that could pull in more than 33k, but not sure hwo common it is, I went to wembley for the same game last year and there was 37k there then.

The question is would a league 2 game pull more than 50k that could be accomodated at one of the modern, North west stadiums,

 

[zwk500]

Surely the corporate box holders would have had a jolly at the other two, bigger, games?

They could have a big 3-day jolly, why enforce a rest day?

And surely they can also have a jolly watching, for example, boxing?

The final on the BH Monday wouldn't be happy if the pitch had been trampled for a boxing match. Wembley's team is pretty good at flipping the ground, but it would still take time to strike all the EFL branding, kit everything out for the boxing, then put all the EFL stuff back in for the Monday match. And that assumes that there'll be a boxing match every year on the May Bank Holiday weekend. SkyBet, for instance, will have lots of people they will want to entertain and part of the deal for them sponsoring the league will be having prime hospitality at Wembley for their showpiece weekend. Reducing that by a third will likely see some form of financial impact on their support for the game.

And I agree that there was a coupe fo clubs in league 2 that could pull in more than 33k, but not sure hwo common it is, I went to wembley for the same game last year and there was 37k there then.

Oh I agree it won't be overly common.

The question is would a league 2 game pull more than 50k that could be accomodated at one of the modern, North west stadiums,

Given the number of times the game has been moved (for events that bring in far more hospitality revenue like the UCL Final), it could be done. But as money is what rules the game now, I don't see the League 2 final moving from Wembley any time soon.

 

[Howardh]

the FA could rent the stadium out for other non sporting events that would pull much more than the 33k that were watching Carlisle and Stockport today

With the roof closed, Wembley could easily have hosted Eurovision wilh 80k in.

Think - not sure - Cardiff has a roof?

 

[zwk500]

With the roof closed, Wembley could easily have hosted Eurovision wilh 80k in.

Wembley Roof doesn't close completely, it's more of an awning. And while it could have hosted Eurovision, the ECB prefer a proper arena and the government and BBC decided to take the event away from London.

Think - not sure - Cardiff has a roof?

Cardiff has a full roof, but is still 77k or so. And also owned by the WRU, not by the FA. They used Cardiff when Wembley was being rebuilt.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I think it must be because most of the victims of the Hillsborough disaster were Liverpool fans, and that has created the association in my mind.

All of the 97 who died were Liverpool supporters

 

[Energy]

Wembley Roof doesn't close completely, it's more of an awning. And while it could have hosted Eurovision, the ECB prefer a proper arena and the government and BBC decided to take the event away from London.

More that every venue in London was already busy, Eurovision requires a fairly substantial block of time.

 

[zwk500]

More that every venue in London was already busy, Eurovision requires a fairly substantial block of time.

That definitely was part of it, although the opportunity for a bit of 'levelling up signalling' wasn't missed by the govt.

 

[cce]

A couple of footballing points

- For football people Wembley is a bit special (the home of football), and for the lower league clubs taking part it's one of only two potential realistic opportunities to play there (the other being the EFL trophy).

- Old Trafford et al belong to clubs. Wembley is neutral. If you're a Stockport fan you've probably been asked all your life by neutrals why you don't just support one of the big two Manchester clubs so having your big day there is like having your wedding reception at your wife's wealthy, handsome ex's house.

- At least some league 2 clubs will sell out their allocation. Bristol rovers did last time we went, and that was when we were in the conference.

 

[Falcon1200]

Getting to Old Trafford on a Sunday was only marginally easier than getting to Wembley, though quicker and cheaper, and the match just didn't have the same sense of occasion about it.

But getting to Old Trafford, rather than Wembley, would have been far easier for fans of Carlisle and Stockport, as say Elland Road would have been for Middlesbrough and Sunderland fans. However, the play-off finalists cannot of course be known until less than two weeks before the game, which does present a problem for both the football authorities and transport providers.

For football people Wembley is a bit special (the home of football), and for the lower league clubs taking part it's one of only two potential realistic opportunities to play there (the other being the EFL trophy).

That is a valid point, and I assume Wembley was sold out for the Coventry/Luton game; We will see later what today's attendance is!

 

[Magdalia]

Some more football points.

The EFL has three divisions (Championship, League 1 and League 2). End May Bank Holiday is the only option for holding all three finals on the same weekend, which is essential for fairness over player contracts, which expire on 30 June.

The play off finals have been at Wembley since 1990, apart from when the stadium was being rebuilt. I was at the first ever Wembley play off final, when Cambridge United defeated Chesterfield with the goal scored by Dion Dublin.

- For football people Wembley is a bit special (the home of football), and for the lower league clubs taking part it's one of only two potential realistic opportunities to play there (the other being the EFL trophy).

Wembley is the National Stadium for football. Locating the EFL and National League play off finals there, and Cups like the EFL Trophy and the FA Trophy, has widened access to it. A quick bit of research suggests that, of EFL clubs, only Accrington, Colchester and Crawley have yet to play there. Seeing your team play at Wembley is an aspiration of all football fans, and a very big day out that lives long in the memory.

That is a valid point, and I assume Wembley was sold out for the Coventry/Luton game; We will see later what today's attendance is!

Yes. Attendance was 85711 for Coventry and Luton.

The Championship Final has always been a de facto sell out. These days League 1 also has a lot of very well supported teams, and if two of those reach the play off final, then that will also be a sell out. I have a neighbour who is a Sheffield Wednesday fan and they have sold their full allocation of more than 35000 for today's game.

For games that won't get near to a sell out, the top tier won't be open, but that still allows a crowd of about 50,000. That's still a very big crowd in terms of the public transport implications.

At least some league 2 clubs will sell out their allocation. Bristol rovers did last time we went, and that was when we were in the conference.

Bristol Rovers v Grimsby Town in 2015, at 47029, is the record crowd for the National League play off.

Carlisle v Stockport yesterday attendance was 34004.

Play off finals are a particular challenge for organisation because the clubs taking part are only determined less than 2 weeks before the matches are played. The allocation of which team gets the west end and which the east end will be based on police advice and transport considerations. Wembley Stadium and Wembley Central are much more convenient for the west end of the stadium, and that might be a consideration. Then add in May Bank Holiday weekend engineering work, and the uncertain finish time because of the possibility of extra time and penalties, and rail travel becomes very complicated!

Other points to bear in mind is that fans of the losing team just want to go home, whereas fans of the winning team will stay on to celebrate. And emptying out a football stadium of 80000+ people doesn't happen instantly. Queuing systems will be in place at both Wembley Stadium and Wembley Park stations.

 

[james_the_xv]

Might be one for speculative discussion - but could more onus be put on the EFL/FA/Clubs to organise 'football specials' to ease pressure on public services? Obvious things to consider would be stock availability (how many coaches do WCRC have available + traction for example), paths on WCML/Chiltern, hire + track access costs vs ticket prices, stabling locations for these sets in London, and how much capacity would that actually give?

I've seen talk of Coventry fans wanting to attempt to bring a 'class action lawsuit' against Chiltern Railways and boycotting them. Many reports of people spending £300+ on taxis due to the issues. Personally I think it comes down to fans assuming services will be put on to convey them and then descending en masse, normally Chiltern are pretty good at events at Wembley so I can only put it down to sheer volume of people. Would be interesting to see some statistics to work out how many people were attempting to travel from Wembley to Warwick Parkway/Leamington.

 

[RailWonderer]

Are the Oxford to Marylebone services, especially the fasts, busier than normal given the Nunham viaduct closing? I can see Chiltern are running doubled up 168s and even more 165s on these routes.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Might be one for speculative discussion - but could more onus be put on the EFL/FA/Clubs to organise 'football specials' to ease pressure on public services?

How much notice would be required to arrange such specials? Ten days enough in the case of Coventry City?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've seen talk of Coventry fans wanting to attempt to bring a 'class action lawsuit' against Chiltern Railways and boycotting them. Many reports of people spending £300+ on taxis due to the issues. Personally I think it comes down to fans assuming services will be put on to convey them and then descending en masse, normally Chiltern are pretty good at events at Wembley so I can only put it down to sheer volume of people. Would be interesting to see some statistics to work out how many people were attempting to travel from Wembley to Warwick Parkway/Leamington.

A big issue is that Chiltern's weekend West Midlands services are regularly full and standing, and if they call at smaller stations like Kings Sutton, Hatton, or Lapworth they're restricted to a maximum of five coaches.

Ideally they need a third Birmingham service each hour, but being a two track railway for most of the route basically precludes that unless they make it a stopper.