Surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

[uglymonkey]

It was 3 months, I remember as I was on a rail replacement bus for that amount of time to get to work.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was 3 months, I remember as I was on a rail replacement bus for that amount of time to get to work.

On what roads did that rail replacement bus take?

 

[30907]

For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.
People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable - if it is not gold-plated and is designed with a train plan in mind that allows a skeleton service to run to keep Cornwall connected while not completely abandoning the locals.

GW are planning to run no trains West of St Austell overnight and until at least midday Thursday.
They are expecting disruption further East. If they need to suspend IET services through Dawlish, having to change onto a Castle or a 15x isn't a massive problem and keeps both South Devon and Cornwall connected.

Edit: which is exactly what happened last night, after an 80x had to reboot at Warren it seems. And if RTT is to be believed they didn't use the Bi-diversion on the Up.

 

[uglymonkey]

On what roads did that rail replacement bus take?

Exeter St David's, out to A38 direct to Plymouth railway station, other buses served Dawlish, Newton abbot, Teignmouth from St David's. Took about an hour.

 

[RPI]

Exeter St David's, out to A38 direct to Plymouth railway station, other buses served Dawlish, Newton abbot, Teignmouth from St David's. Took about an hour.

I had to work helping with buses when that happened, the express buses from Exeter to Plymouth were actually faster than the train times and were mostly luxury coaches.

 

[uglymonkey]

No intermediate stops on the Plymouth coach helped enormously!

 

[Irascible]

For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.
People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable - if it is not gold-plated and is designed with a train plan in mind that allows a skeleton service to run to keep Cornwall connected while not completely abandoning the locals.

Thing is, with storms this bad then quite often it's not just Dawlish causing problems ( I think Cieran is resulting in some of Cornwall losing it's service anyway? ) so it's not necessarily the only thing that needs looking at. The other thing is this thread is specifically talking about filling the Dartmoor gap, and that isn't the only solution. I think a lot of us in the area would Quite Like Something Done At Some Point, but don't agree that the old route is the best way to do it. The 2014 plan had seven options ( including the better sea wall that actually happened ).

I had to work helping with buses when that happened, the express buses from Exeter to Plymouth were actually faster than the train times and were mostly luxury coaches.

And that is the other problem in the area anyone care to guess at an IET time Exeter-Plymouth if it didn't have to stop? having to stop at the bottom of both banks doesn't do anything any favours.

 

[The Planner]

And that is the other problem in the area anyone care to guess at an IET time Exeter-Plymouth if it didn't have to stop? having to stop at the bottom of both banks doesn't do anything any favours.

Depends on the stops, reasonable to assume 3 minutes penalty for each one.

 

[Irascible]

Depends on the stops, reasonable to assume 3 minutes penalty for each one.

Does that include any penalty for starting from Totnes or Newton Abbott vs taking a run at the banks? I forgot Ivybridge was there too, for the sake of not muddying the issue ignore that one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does that include any penalty for starting from Totnes or Newton Abbott vs taking a run at the banks? I forgot Ivybridge was there too, for the sake of not muddying the issue ignore that one.

Ivybridge is still a station worth remembering and has more than regained the passenger footfall it lost during the Covid pandemic.

 

[Bald Rick]

People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable

But all the benefits were put together in the business case work in 2014. And there wasn‘t remotely a viable business case.

 

[Starmill]

Okehampton was fast tracked, as this link (with annoying adverts) from 2018 illustrates.

Daily Okehampton to Exeter trains promised by transport minister

In a letter to all South West MPs, Chris Grayling has said regular train services between Okehampton and Exeter should be created

www.devonlive.com

Jan 2018 to opening in Nov 2021. All done for political reasons rather than for the benefit of Okehampton but, the end result is still the same. Proof though that Gov can get things done in a sensible time frame, if they want to. Other potential routes that still have track, are still waiting...... The inertia elsewhere is entirely avoidable, it is all down to political expediency.

The capital cost of Okehampton's service involved a bit of refurbishment work at the station, various bits of fencing and drainage and track work and other things to increase the permissible speed slightly. No new land or permission was necessary. The capital cost to build a new line to Tavistock and undertake similar work between Bere Alston and Plymouth would be much higher.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any chance of having a poll on the subject matter stated in the title of this thread?

 

[The Ham]

But all the benefits were put together in the business case work in 2014. And there wasn‘t remotely a viable business case.

Whilst I don't disagree with your statement, as Okehampton is running regularly now the business case would have improved (although not by very much so is still not viable case).

 

[Bald Rick]

For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.

News just in: Exeter - Plymouth has remained open.

 

[The Planner]

Does that include any penalty for starting from Totnes or Newton Abbott vs taking a run at the banks? I forgot Ivybridge was there too, for the sake of not muddying the issue ignore that one.

Running times for a 800 as follows;

Teignmouth to Newton Abbott - 5 pass/pass, 5½ pass/stop, 6 start/stop. 2 minute dwell
Newton Abbot to Newton Abbott West - ½ pass/pass, 1 start/pass
Newton Abbot West to Dainton - 3½
Dainton to Totnes - 5½ pass/pass, 5½ pass/stop. 1½ dwell
Totnes to Aish - 8 pass/pass, 9½ start/pass
Aish to Ivybridge - 4 pass/pass, 4 pass/stop

Ivybridge to Aish - 4 pass/pass, 4½ start/pass
Aish to Totnes - 7½ pass/pass, 8½ pass/stop. 1½ dwell
Totnes to Dainton - 5½ pass/pass, 6 start/pass
Dainton to Newton Abbott West - 3½
Newton Abbott West to Newton Abbott - ½ pass/pass, 1 pass/stop
Newton Abbott to Teignmouth - 4½ pass/pass, 5 start/pass, 5½ start/stop. 2 minute dwell

3 minutes a stop.

 

[simonw]

Is there any chance of having a poll on the subject matter stated in the title of this thread?

I'm not sure what light a poll would add to the issue.

There are basically two camps:

Those who think the line should be reopened;

Those who know that there is no business case that justifies reopening it.

As with many issues, the two camps are never likely going to agree.

 

[Starmill]

Oh and a final point, Crediton generates a small but meaningful demand and the Okehampton services are increasing it by making the service much more convenient to use between Credion and Exeter city centre. Unfortunately the catchment at Bere Alston is very very small compared to Crediton.

 

[Irascible]

Running times for a 800 as follows;

Teignmouth to Newton Abbott - 5 pass/pass, 5½ pass/stop, 6 start/stop. 2 minute dwell
Newton Abbot to Newton Abbott West - ½ pass/pass, 1 start/pass
Newton Abbot West to Dainton - 3½
Dainton to Totnes - 5½ pass/pass, 5½ pass/stop. 1½ dwell
Totnes to Aish - 8 pass/pass, 9½ start/pass
Aish to Ivybridge - 4 pass/pass, 4 pass/stop

Ivybridge to Aish - 4 pass/pass, 4½ start/pass
Aish to Totnes - 7½ pass/pass, 8½ pass/stop. 1½ dwell
Totnes to Dainton - 5½ pass/pass, 6 start/pass
Dainton to Newton Abbott West - 3½
Newton Abbott West to Newton Abbott - ½ pass/pass, 1 pass/stop
Newton Abbott to Teignmouth - 4½ pass/pass, 5 start/pass, 5½ start/stop. 2 minute dwell

3 minutes a stop.

Thankyou for the comprehensive response!

 

[uglymonkey]

I also think the Gunnislake bit, makes it more complicated ( and expensive?),rather than just a straight add 4 miles to the end of a out and back branch line ( which Okehampton is ).

 

[zwk500]

I also think the Gunnislake bit, makes it more complicated ( and expensive?),rather than just a straight add 4 miles to the end of a out and back branch line ( which Okehampton is ).

This is very true. If you were able to avoid any signalling changes at Bere Alston the capital costs would be lower.
Whether it would make any difference I don't know, you'd still have all the other costs of acquiring land and permission.

 

[daodao]

I also think the Gunnislake bit, makes it more complicated ( and expensive?),rather than just a straight add 4 miles to the end of a out and back branch line ( which Okehampton is ).

While the need for additional signalling/passing loops on the line from Keyham to Bere Alston does add to the cost/difficulty of re-opening the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock, it would not be insurmountable, and pales into insignificance compared to the cost/difficulty of re-opening the line from Tavistock to Okehampton. The former has a potential business case and some official support, the latter is a proposal only advocated by fantasists living in cloud cuckoo land. Conflating the two proposals in this thread muddies the waters.

 

[uglymonkey]

A thought occured to me, Bere Alston was kept open because the roads were bad and the train was quicker over the iron bridge, did they ever propose to improve the roads ( I know) and shut the railway? I remember some Beeching closures were postponed until " adequate bus or road improvements were in place". Just wondered if any thought was given to this, rather than keeping it open forever.
I did always wonder why they didn't keep Tavistock open (small town) and close Tavistock/Okehampton. As Tavistock is a small town whereas Bere Alston is a village. My only thought was to keep Gunnislake open, and ( as is now it complicates things if you do Tavistock and Gunnislake as a "Y". especially if they were trying to save every penny ( which they were).
Just a thought.

 

[RPI]

A thought occured to me, Bere Alston was kept open because the roads were bad and the train was quicker over the iron bridge, did they ever propose to improve the roads ( I know) and shut the railway? I remember some Beeching closures were postponed until " adequate bus or road improvements were in place". Just wondered if any thought was given to this, rather than keeping it open forever.
I did always wonder why they didn't keep Tavistock open (small town) and close Tavistock/Okehampton. As Tavistock is a small town whereas Bere Alston is a village. My only thought was to keep Gunnislake open, and ( as is now it complicates things if you do Tavistock and Gunnislake as a "Y". especially if they were trying to save every penny ( which they were).
Just a thought.

Its a fair point, but the road journey from Gunnislake/Calstock is still the same, you have to go via Tavistock, also, Gunnislake acts as a railhead for the Gunnislake/Callington area and is quite well used, Calstock is also well used.

Whilst I'm delving into the realms of speculation, I'd personally consider running Bere Alston to Gunnislake as a shuttle, but run it hourly as a trade off, once Tavistock is reopened.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at both the thread title and the postings made on this thread so far, in my personal opinion (for what it is worth), the only case made stronger is the case for binning all these aspirational with no business case proposals.

 

[uglymonkey]

I think a lot of lines open today, if closed ,would not have a business case to reopen!

 

[BrianW]

Its a fair point, but the road journey from Gunnislake/Calstock is still the same, you have to go via Tavistock, also, Gunnislake acts as a railhead for the Gunnislake/Callington area and is quite well used, Calstock is also well used.

Whilst I'm delving into the realms of speculation, I'd personally consider running Bere Alston to Gunnislake as a shuttle, but run it hourly as a trade off, once Tavistock is reopened.

If I have it right, the case [EDIT- back in the '60s] for keeping open the line as it currently is (Plymouth- Gunnislake via Bere Alston) is primarily that the roads thereabouts were not conducive as alternatives to the rail journey- whether too long, too narrow, hilly etc I don't know perhaps there are notes of meetings, deliberations and decisions of the Transport Users Consultative Committee that might shed light? I would say that little has changed in the years since the Beeching 'reprieve', except the roads are busier. Perhaps a service pattern Plymouth- Gunnislake via Tavistock might be made to work? Maybe not.

 

[RT4038]

I think a lot of lines open today, if closed ,would not have a business case to reopen!

For sure!

 

[Irascible]

I suspect the business case for the entire line was torpedoed when the LSWR conceded defeat over the Plymouth liner traffic... you'd have expected an upgrade to the viaduct at some point if it was really worthwhile. There was freight going in & out of Bude & Padstow still, too, but obviously not enough to justify reinforcement.

 

[I'm here now]

It would be interesting to see the Meldon Quarry be re-opened. I went down there this August and was shocked at how well preserved things were. All signals seemed in order and there was even some rolling stock and standby.
If not for Quarry uses, could the Meldon site be used as a freight hub? It would be the only such hub west of Exeter and with decent road links to North and Central Devon might be worth investigating

West Devon intermodal