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Surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!

zwk500

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It would be interesting to see the Meldon Quarry be re-opened. I went down there this August and was shocked at how well preserved things were. All signals seemed in order and there was even some rolling stock and standby.
If not for Quarry uses, could the Meldon site be used as a freight hub? It would be the only such hub west of Exeter and with decent road links to North and Central Devon might be worth investigating
Is the quarry not part of the Preserved line? that may explain why it's being maintained a bit better than might be expected.
Regarding the Freight hub, I'm afraid I will prove @BrianW prophetic and ask, what business is there for a freight hub in that part of the world, given the difficulty of getting trains to it. If there was business for it, you'd have a hub at Exeter with the M5 as well as the A30, and the much bigger city.
 
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uglymonkey

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It's not a quarry anymore, just a derelict hole in the ground, everything has been removed. ( except some rusty overgrown track and the Meldon platform).
 

Bald Rick

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If not for Quarry uses, could the Meldon site be used as a freight hub?

Theres simply not the demand down there. Almost all the logistics companies have their hubs for the South West near Avonmouth.
 

swt_passenger

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Looking at the thread title, has any official confirmation been made as to how far any official discussions on the matter have proceeded?
I strongly suspect there have been no official discussions on the Tavistock - Okehampton gap. Just gets reheated in the forum every time an IET fails at Dawlish.
 

Bald Rick

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Looking at the thread title, has any official confirmation been made as to how far any official discussions on the matter have proceeded?

I strongly suspect there have been no official discussions on the Tavistock - Okehampton gap. Just gets reheated in the forum every time an IET fails at Dawlish.

There actually have been official discussions, and official confirmation.

Tavistock - Okehampton was submitted as a bid in the first call for proposals in the Restoring Your Railway programme. It was rejected.

It was then submitted again in the third round. It was rejected again.

AIUI, very expensive, and an appalling business case.

And that is that.
 

swt_passenger

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There actually have been official discussions, and official confirmation.

Tavistock - Okehampton was submitted as a bid in the first call for proposals in the Restoring Your Railway programme. It was rejected.

It was then submitted again in the third round. It was rejected again.

AIUI, very expensive, and an appalling business case.

And that is that.
You surprise me. But then again many restoring your railway applications seem to have had little basis in reality.

If the rejections were more strongly worded might it stop them being repeated every few months?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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You surprise me. But then again many restoring your railway applications seem to have had little basis in reality.

If the rejections were more strongly worded might it stop them being repeated every few months?
Perhaps something of the "three strikes and you're out" variety might also assist in such a matter.

If Tavistock is now seriously on the cards and mention has also been made of a Dawlish coast diversion, surely the case is now much stronger for Bere Alston - Tavistock - Okehampton!
I brought this up in a telephone conversation with a colleague who lives near Newton Abbot recently and he went away saying he would give thought to the matter. He came back to me a couple of days later to say that in his considered opinion, the only case that would best describe this project was "a basket case"
 
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Bald Rick

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If the rejections were more strongly worded might it stop them being repeated every few months?

AIUI, the first round rejections were worded to suggest how the case could be improved.

Naturally, many proposers then presented exactly the same case (but not necessarily in the same order, I’ll give you that) because in their view* the case was strong. The second rejection letters would have been more forthright.


*of course, their view is rather blinkered, based perhaps on the belief that the Transport Assessment Guidlines are not the correct way of assessing the case for a transport project (because itdiesnt give the answer they want)
 

zwk500

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AIUI, the first round rejections were worded to suggest how the case could be improved.

Naturally, many proposers then presented exactly the same case (but not necessarily in the same order, I’ll give you that) because in their view* the case was strong. The second rejection letters would have been more forthright.


*of course, their view is rather blinkered, based perhaps on the belief that the Transport Assessment Guidlines are not the correct way of assessing the case for a transport project (because itdiesnt give the answer they want)
The lack of revision may also be related to having access to the funds to set out the case properly. The grants to 'develop' the business case wouldn't have always bought some of the more, ahem, ambitious projects the time/data/expertise needed to address all the issues.
 

uglymonkey

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With all this" business/basket case talk, I'm utterly amazed they funded for Okehampton to be put on the railway map rather than being rippedyp/left to rot. What makes Okehampton different for a basket case, than its neighbour Tavistock, other than one having crappy track still in place, and the other a empty track bed? Both have similar needs ( commuter rail access to each nearest city for work whatever. )
 

Bald Rick

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With all this" business/basket case talk, I'm utterly amazed they funded for Okehampton to be put on the railway map rather than being rippedyp/left to rot. What makes Okehampton different for a basket case, than its neighbour Tavistock, other than one having crappy track still in place, and the other a empty track bed? Both have similar needs ( commuter rail access to each nearest city for work whatever. )

That track makes all the difference. Being a live railway means there was no need to gwin primary consent to build dit, with all the implications that has (including land purchase, environmental assessments, etc etc). and being a live railway the condition of the infrastructure was known and understood - and it was also kept in reasonably good nick. A raher different state of aggairs comoared to 15 miles to the west.
 

Irascible

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Okehampton also had a ( very irregular ) service to Exeter for decades - long enough ago that I can't remember when it started ( 90s sometime? ) and the station was still open & in good condition. I'm not sure you could get much lower hanging fruit other than the quarry being open & the track replacement paid for by someone else.

Tavistock's station is admittedly still in good condition :p
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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What makes Okehampton different for a basket case, than its neighbour Tavistock, other than one having crappy track still in place, and the other a empty track bed? Both have similar needs ( commuter rail access to each nearest city for work whatever. )
When evaluating the business case for a rail project on a line that has seen no train service for many years, such as to Tavistock, how is the stated "commuter rail access to nearest city for work" viewed by the decision makers?
 

uglymonkey

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Some sort of comparison on the road traffic 07.30 -10 and 3.40 -7 Tavistock to Plymouth? They must have done a survey A38? Okehampton to Exeter? Before reopening surely?
 

Brush 4

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Okehampton was fast tracked, as this link (with annoying adverts) from 2018 illustrates.


Jan 2018 to opening in Nov 2021. All done for political reasons rather than for the benefit of Okehampton but, the end result is still the same. Proof though that Gov can get things done in a sensible time frame, if they want to. Other potential routes that still have track, are still waiting...... The inertia elsewhere is entirely avoidable, it is all down to political expediency.
 

uglymonkey

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Yes agree , I think I'll be long dead before Portishead opens ( if ever). Mind you Scotland seem to have it better with new rail projects taking less than millennia. Political again.
 

Bald Rick

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Some sort of comparison on the road traffic 07.30 -10 and 3.40 -7 Tavistock to Plymouth? They must have done a survey A38? Okehampton to Exeter? Before reopening surely?

Currently 44 mins Tavistock to Plmouth station by road (as in right now).
 

paul1609

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Travel between all those stations and Plymouth is perfectly possible today via a simple change at Exeter St Davids; Are there really hordes of people who do not currently make that journey but would if there was a direct train (which there could be anyway via Dawlish!)?
When there were direct SWT trains to Plymouth via Dawlish everybody used to change at St David's anyway as the direct trains were overtaken in Dawlish Warren Loop so they could call at Ivybridge Car Boot station without holding up HSTs. They carried next to no passengers south of Exeter which is why they were discontinued.
 

RPI

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When there were direct SWT trains to Plymouth via Dawlish everybody used to change at St David's anyway as the direct trains were overtaken in Dawlish Warren Loop so they could call at Ivybridge Car Boot station without holding up HSTs. They carried next to no passengers south of Exeter which is why they were discontinued.
Yes, the Torbay ones could be quite busy though.
 

Irascible

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Some sort of comparison on the road traffic 07.30 -10 and 3.40 -7 Tavistock to Plymouth? They must have done a survey A38? Okehampton to Exeter? Before reopening surely?

( Far ) less of a problem on the A road than actually getting into Exeter, but that's true of most directions into Exeter.
 

zwk500

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When evaluating the business case for a rail project on a line that has seen no train service for many years, such as to Tavistock, how is the stated "commuter rail access to nearest city for work" viewed by the decision makers?
In many ways. The appraisal process considers journey times on different modes and routes, costs, parking and congestion in the city centre, access to a car in the towns, and then calculates values for a wide range of indices. Key points being carbon (several measures), air quality (particulates, etc), accident reduction on roads, and impact of having better access to jobs. But there's a reason business cases run into hundreds of pages - they cover an awful lot of ground.
Yes agree , I think I'll be long dead before Portishead opens ( if ever). Mind you Scotland seem to have it better with new rail projects taking less than millennia. Political again.
You might have slightly better luck with Portishead than that, given certain important political hurdles have been cleared (even if some remain).
 

AndrewE

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For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.
People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable - if it is not gold-plated and is designed with a train plan in mind that allows a skeleton service to run to keep Cornwall connected while not completely abandoning the locals.
 

stuu

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For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.
People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable - if it is not gold-plated and is designed with a train plan in mind that allows a skeleton service to run to keep Cornwall connected while not completely abandoning the locals.
Or run nice free coaches along the A30 for a capital outlay of £0, on the very infrequent occasions that Cornwall is "cut off".
 

zwk500

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For the decision-makers who say that resilience doesn't matter, or can't be afforded, Expect a bit more pressure: I suspect that we are going to see the SW cut off by rail again with Storm Ciaran.
People might say that rebuilding this line has no business case, but I'm certain that when all the benefits are put together it would be viable - if it is not gold-plated and is designed with a train plan in mind that allows a skeleton service to run to keep Cornwall connected while not completely abandoning the locals.
WebTAG is freely available and you are more than welcome to submit your own proposal, with business case, to the DfT.
The fact that everybody who has been commissioned to look at it *by clients who want the line rebuilt* hasn't been able to, is apparently not relevant to you?
 

uglymonkey

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I think Westminster thinks we should all be jolly grateful the railway doesn't stop at Exeter and there is nothing west of there, and to stop moaning, meanwhile let's invest some more squillons in London.
 

BrianW

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Or run nice free coaches along the A30 for a capital outlay of £0, on the very infrequent occasions that Cornwall is "cut off".
I think Westminster thinks we should all be jolly grateful the railway doesn't stop at Exeter and there is nothing west of there, and to stop moaning, meanwhile let's invest some more squillons in London.
Ok- the 'washout' at Dawlish a few years back lasted more than a few days, but a day or even a week of no trains is not 'the end of the world'. Without wishing to be overly harsh- what is Cornwall for, and then how does rail serve that? What might be the maximum travel time to reach a 'railhead' IF it's decided that 'Serpell was right'? We need a dose of 'economic reality' as it seems to be seen in Westminster. There are a mere 6 MPs in Cornwall (that's 1% of the UK total) - all Conservative at present. Hardly a 'wall' of any kind. Sorry.
 

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