Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Bletchleyite]

One current diagram (non-Covid) has 2x221 starting at Blackpool and Holyhead and combining at Crewe, which will probably change.

Presumably that will go 805, as otherwise you'd have to change the timetable entirely.

 

[hexagon789]

The revised speed boards are bagged over at present. Does anyone know when the new MU speed profile is due to go live? I must imagine that is imminent?
Voyagers and 390's can keep to MU speeds, so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running? And that means driver training on the new limits sometime.months before that? For now the PS limits are okay for test runs and letting drivers get used to the feel of the trains.

390s cannot use MU speeds.

22x can though as you say.

 

[Railperf]

390s cannot use MU speeds.

22x can though as you say.

Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.

Does anyone know if the new MU profile differs from the PS profile at speeds of under 110mph? Or does it differ solely where speeds over 110mph are needed?

On another note - a joined up rolling stock policy would have allowed LNWR to procure 125mph rolling stock. Instead we are about to see 110mph trains running on tracks soon to be fit for 125mph - reducing absolute track capacity. How crazy is that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time.

The Liverpools are already running as 390s in 80x timings, they are noticeably slower than usual! The second Liverpool (not running yet) is the 390 timed diagram.

 

[The Planner]

Does anyone know if the new MU profile differs from the PS profile at speeds of under 110mph? Or does it differ solely where speeds over 110mph are needed?

Yes, there is a section north of Rugby where PS is 100mph and the MU is 110 or 115 on the down. Small section on the up where the PS is 90 and MU will be 95.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Liverpools are already running as 390s in 80x timings, they are noticeably slower than usual! The second Liverpool (not running yet) is the 390 timed diagram.

There is currently a second Liverpool but only in the peaks.

 

[JW4]

There is currently a second Liverpool but only in the peaks.

Is that not only for LNR Birmingham-Liverpool. Pretty sure Liverpool-London is 1tph except at the very start of the day?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is that not only for LNR?

Liverpools leave Euston at 43 the hour, but there are some extras at 7 past the hour around teatime. One of my clients catches the 19:07 because it's the first one valid on Off-Peak Mon to Thu.

 

[Railperf]

The Liverpools are already running as 390s in 80x timings, they are noticeably slower than usual! The second Liverpool (not running yet) is the 390 timed diagram.

But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds?

 

[JW4]

Liverpools leave Euston at 43 the hour, but there are some extras at 7 past the hour around teatime.

By some do you mean one? Only one I can see is the 19:07.

 

[Jamesrob637]

By some do you mean one? Only one I can see is the 19:07.

I've seen a 17:07 (or possibly 17:09) recently when I was at Euston on a Friday, so that makes at least two. There haven't been any peak Friday restrictions since the late Virgin days in the mid to late-10s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably that will go 805, as otherwise you'd have to change the timetable entirely.

In the current and next (June) timetable the Holyhead portion of this service (1R14) is dropped - not even a connection from Chester let alone the coast.
The Blackpool portion continues to run (timed for 80x from June) - no mention of picking up a portion at Crewe.

Realtime Trains | 1R14 0535 Blackpool North to London Euston | 04/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1R14 0535 departure from Blackpool North to London Euston on 04/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The combined pair used to form the 0910 Euston-Holyhead and 1358 back, the only double working on the coast - essentially the "boat train".
It's not clear if it does that in June (now the 0902 down/1448 up).

These reductions, and others, are probably how Avanti managed to allow 2x221 to go off-lease last year.

 

[JW4]

I've seen a 17:07 (or possibly 17:09) recently when I was at Euston on a Friday, so that makes at least two. There haven't been any peak Friday restrictions since the late Virgin days in the mid to late-10s.

I see your reasoning

 

[Toby268]

But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds

The speeds are based on a new speed profile, which are MU +. Atm there are 3 speed profiles across the WCML. MU speeds, and 2 EPS speed profiles. One for the voyagers which is slightly slower On certain sections of line due to the voyagers tilting less than pendos and then the pendo speeds. There’s a max of 3 speed limits on the rail network. Because of this, the new speeds cannot be used until the voyager EPS speeds are removed. At that point, the new MU+ speeds, that the 80x will use will be launched.

 

[AJDesiro]

The speeds are based on a new speed profile, which are MU +. Atm there are 3 speed profiles across the WCML. MU speeds, and 2 EPS speed profiles. One for the voyagers which is slightly slower On certain sections of line due to the voyagers tilting less than pendos and then the pendo speeds. There’s a max of 3 speed limits on the rail network. Because of this, the new speeds cannot be used until the voyager EPS speeds are removed. At that point, the new MU+ speeds, that the 80x will use will be launched.

Isn't it just MU, not MU+. AFAIK there was a plan for a new PS+ profiile but they changed it to MU since it was more widely used.

 

[Toby268]

Isn't it just MU, not MU+. AFAIK there was a plan for a new PS+ profiile but they changed it to MU since it was more widely used.

Potentially, when I last heard it being discussed it was MU + but you may be right.

 

[stuu]

Potentially, when I last heard it being discussed it was MU + but you may be right.

There's quite a thorough article about the speed upgrade in one of the railway magazines this month, that states there will be MU boards, and has a photo

 

[AJDesiro]

Potentially, when I last heard it being discussed it was MU + but you may be right.

This is a CGI image provided by West Coast Partnership Development/Avanti around 12 days ago.

 

[voyagerdude220]

These reductions, and others, are probably how Avanti managed to allow 2x221 to go off-lease last year.

Maybe so, although 1R14 still runs with 2x221, this is presumably why it no longer calls at Poulton le Fylde or Kirkham and Wesham anymore and departs 10 minutes later at 05:35, instead of it's 05:25 slot.

I'm surprised there isn't at least a connecting service from Holyhead, or Chester as a minimum into 1R14, as both portions always seemed busy in my experience. (sorry off topic)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's getting like Italy which has three speed signs of identical style and colour (black on white) on each post (which are often OHLE masts).

 

[Boodiggy]

The revised speed boards are bagged over at present. Does anyone know when the new MU speed profile is due to go live? I must imagine that is imminent?
Voyagers and 390's can keep to MU speeds, so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running? And that means driver training on the new limits sometime.months before that? For now the PS limits are okay for test runs and letting drivers get used to the feel of the trains.

Due to be commissioned from week 01 (April) through to week 10. It will be staged with Kilburn - Rugby done first.

390s have had a vehicle change so can operate at MU once the speed profile is introduced.

The SoC for 805s shows they can run on test at EPS between Rugby and Crewe although both GBRF and AWC have only been running at PS.

 

[Bald Rick]

so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running?

The revised timetable with some trains on 80x timings on the MU speed profile has been in place since December 2022.

Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.

As now - if a 390 is on a diagram with 80x timings, it runs to the EPS profile and runs slightly early, or recovers delays more easily.

But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds?

MU.

 

[Boodiggy]

Yes, there is a section north of Rugby where PS is 100mph and the MU is 110 or 115 on the down. Small section on the up where the PS is 90 and MU will be 95.

it will also be 90 PS 100 MU and 125 EPS at Linslade on the DF
The EPS differential goes from the Up but no MU.

Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.

Does anyone know if the new MU profile differs from the PS profile at speeds of under 110mph? Or does it differ solely where speeds over 110mph are needed?

On another note - a joined up rolling stock policy would have allowed LNWR to procure 125mph rolling stock. Instead we are about to see 110mph trains running on tracks soon to be fit for 125mph - reducing absolute track capacity. How crazy is that?

The driver will just drive the way they normally do at EPS speeds.
Only MU if running non-tilt. Which will save a few mins compared to PS.

 

[JW4]

Maybe so, although 1R14 still runs with 2x221, this is presumably why it no longer calls at Poulton le Fylde or Kirkham and Wesham anymore and departs 10 minutes later at 05:35, instead of it's 05:25 slot.

I'm surprised there isn't at least a connecting service from Holyhead, or Chester as a minimum into 1R14, as both portions always seemed busy in my experience. (sorry off topic)

Are the platforms at PFY & KKM long enough to take 1x 807 and 1x 390/0 but not long enough to take 2x 221s or 2x 805s?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Are the platforms at PFY & KKM long enough to take 1x 807 and 1x 390/0 but not long enough to take 2x 221s or 2x 805s?

They're definitely not long enough to fit a 390/0.
Kirkham & Wesham's platform look to just fit an 807, Poulton-le-Fylde looks to be just a bit too short, although SDO could presumably handle it (if they're getting SDO).

 

[AJDesiro]

They're definitely not long enough to fit a 390/0.
Kirkham & Wesham's platform look to just fit an 807, Poulton-le-Fylde looks to be just a bit too short, although SDO could presumably handle it (if they're getting SDO).

The 805/807 fleet has ASDO AFAIK.

Kirkham & Wesham P2 (183m) could fit 7 carriages of a 390, or 7 carriages of an 80x, while P3 (198m) could fit 8 carriages of a 390 or 8 carriages of an 80x.
Poulton-le-Fylde P1 (162m) could fit a theoretical 6 carriages of a 390 or 6 carriages of an 80x, while P2 (170m) could fit 7 carriages of a 390 or 6 carriages of an 80x.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Due to be commissioned from week 01 (April) through to week 10. It will be staged with Kilburn - Rugby done first.
390s have had a vehicle change so can operate at MU once the speed profile is introduced.
The SoC for 805s shows they can run on test at EPS between Rugby and Crewe although both GBRF and AWC have only been running at PS.

Does that mean the 221 EPS differentials will be retired on that section from the same date?
Can they run at MU speeds?

 

[childwallblues]

Igot told off by moderators for using station codes. Now I cannot understand the codes being used here like EPS PS MU etc for the uneducated like me please explain.

 

[hexagon789]

Does that mean the 221 EPS differentials will be retired on that section from the same date?
Can they run at MU speeds?

Yes and yes.

Igot told off by moderators for using station codes. Now I cannot understand the codes being used here like EPS PS MU etc for the uneducated like me please explain.

EPS - Enhanced Permissible Speeds. Put simply, these are the 'tilt' speeds 390s and 221s can use on the WCML. In some places a lower figure applies to the 221s vs 390s as the Super Voyagers have a lesser degree of tilting (6 degrees against 8).

MU - Multiple Unit. A differential speed certain classes of multiple unit can use. 22x are included. 390s were not but apparently will be added.

PS - Permissible Speed. The ordinary speed limit useable by all trains up to their speed ceiling.

 

[The Planner]

Igot told off by moderators for using station codes. Now I cannot understand the codes being used here like EPS PS MU etc for the uneducated like me please explain.

Enhanced Permissible Speed, Permissisble Speed, Multiple Unit