Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One current diagram (non-Covid) has 2x221 starting at Blackpool and Holyhead and combining at Crewe, which will probably change.
Presumably that will go 805, as otherwise you'd have to change the timetable entirely.
One current diagram (non-Covid) has 2x221 starting at Blackpool and Holyhead and combining at Crewe, which will probably change.
390s cannot use MU speeds.The revised speed boards are bagged over at present. Does anyone know when the new MU speed profile is due to go live? I must imagine that is imminent?
Voyagers and 390's can keep to MU speeds, so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running? And that means driver training on the new limits sometime.months before that? For now the PS limits are okay for test runs and letting drivers get used to the feel of the trains.
Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.390s cannot use MU speeds.
22x can though as you say.
Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time.
Yes, there is a section north of Rugby where PS is 100mph and the MU is 110 or 115 on the down. Small section on the up where the PS is 90 and MU will be 95.Does anyone know if the new MU profile differs from the PS profile at speeds of under 110mph? Or does it differ solely where speeds over 110mph are needed?
The Liverpools are already running as 390s in 80x timings, they are noticeably slower than usual! The second Liverpool (not running yet) is the 390 timed diagram.
Is that not only for LNR Birmingham-Liverpool. Pretty sure Liverpool-London is 1tph except at the very start of the day?There is currently a second Liverpool but only in the peaks.
Is that not only for LNR?
But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds?The Liverpools are already running as 390s in 80x timings, they are noticeably slower than usual! The second Liverpool (not running yet) is the 390 timed diagram.
By some do you mean one? Only one I can see is the 19:07.Liverpools leave Euston at 43 the hour, but there are some extras at 7 past the hour around teatime.
By some do you mean one? Only one I can see is the 19:07.
In the current and next (June) timetable the Holyhead portion of this service (1R14) is dropped - not even a connection from Chester let alone the coast.Presumably that will go 805, as otherwise you'd have to change the timetable entirely.
I see your reasoningI've seen a 17:07 (or possibly 17:09) recently when I was at Euston on a Friday, so that makes at least two. There haven't been any peak Friday restrictions since the late Virgin days in the mid to late-10s.
The speeds are based on a new speed profile, which are MU +. Atm there are 3 speed profiles across the WCML. MU speeds, and 2 EPS speed profiles. One for the voyagers which is slightly slower On certain sections of line due to the voyagers tilting less than pendos and then the pendo speeds. There’s a max of 3 speed limits on the rail network. Because of this, the new speeds cannot be used until the voyager EPS speeds are removed. At that point, the new MU+ speeds, that the 80x will use will be launched.But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds
Isn't it just MU, not MU+. AFAIK there was a plan for a new PS+ profiile but they changed it to MU since it was more widely used.The speeds are based on a new speed profile, which are MU +. Atm there are 3 speed profiles across the WCML. MU speeds, and 2 EPS speed profiles. One for the voyagers which is slightly slower On certain sections of line due to the voyagers tilting less than pendos and then the pendo speeds. There’s a max of 3 speed limits on the rail network. Because of this, the new speeds cannot be used until the voyager EPS speeds are removed. At that point, the new MU+ speeds, that the 80x will use will be launched.
Potentially, when I last heard it being discussed it was MU + but you may be right.Isn't it just MU, not MU+. AFAIK there was a plan for a new PS+ profiile but they changed it to MU since it was more widely used.
There's quite a thorough article about the speed upgrade in one of the railway magazines this month, that states there will be MU boards, and has a photoPotentially, when I last heard it being discussed it was MU + but you may be right.
Maybe so, although 1R14 still runs with 2x221, this is presumably why it no longer calls at Poulton le Fylde or Kirkham and Wesham anymore and departs 10 minutes later at 05:35, instead of it's 05:25 slot.These reductions, and others, are probably how Avanti managed to allow 2x221 to go off-lease last year.
Due to be commissioned from week 01 (April) through to week 10. It will be staged with Kilburn - Rugby done first.The revised speed boards are bagged over at present. Does anyone know when the new MU speed profile is due to go live? I must imagine that is imminent?
Voyagers and 390's can keep to MU speeds, so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running? And that means driver training on the new limits sometime.months before that? For now the PS limits are okay for test runs and letting drivers get used to the feel of the trains.
so you would imagine introducing a revised timetable based on the MU speeds must be in the plan from June when the 80x are due to start running?
Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.
But are the 80x timings based on PS or MU speeds?
it will also be 90 PS 100 MU and 125 EPS at Linslade on the DFYes, there is a section north of Rugby where PS is 100mph and the MU is 110 or 115 on the down. Small section on the up where the PS is 90 and MU will be 95.
The driver will just drive the way they normally do at EPS speeds.Yes, but the EPS speed profile is greater than the new MU profile will be, so in theory if a 390 is swapped on to a diagram running to 80x timings the driver can drive closer to the MU profile speeds to keep time. The train would be within EPS limits but in theory can be driven more leisurely to achieve the slower SRTs.
Does anyone know if the new MU profile differs from the PS profile at speeds of under 110mph? Or does it differ solely where speeds over 110mph are needed?
On another note - a joined up rolling stock policy would have allowed LNWR to procure 125mph rolling stock. Instead we are about to see 110mph trains running on tracks soon to be fit for 125mph - reducing absolute track capacity. How crazy is that?
Are the platforms at PFY & KKM long enough to take 1x 807 and 1x 390/0 but not long enough to take 2x 221s or 2x 805s?Maybe so, although 1R14 still runs with 2x221, this is presumably why it no longer calls at Poulton le Fylde or Kirkham and Wesham anymore and departs 10 minutes later at 05:35, instead of it's 05:25 slot.
I'm surprised there isn't at least a connecting service from Holyhead, or Chester as a minimum into 1R14, as both portions always seemed busy in my experience. (sorry off topic)
They're definitely not long enough to fit a 390/0.Are the platforms at PFY & KKM long enough to take 1x 807 and 1x 390/0 but not long enough to take 2x 221s or 2x 805s?
The 805/807 fleet has ASDO AFAIK.They're definitely not long enough to fit a 390/0.
Kirkham & Wesham's platform look to just fit an 807, Poulton-le-Fylde looks to be just a bit too short, although SDO could presumably handle it (if they're getting SDO).
Does that mean the 221 EPS differentials will be retired on that section from the same date?Due to be commissioned from week 01 (April) through to week 10. It will be staged with Kilburn - Rugby done first.
390s have had a vehicle change so can operate at MU once the speed profile is introduced.
The SoC for 805s shows they can run on test at EPS between Rugby and Crewe although both GBRF and AWC have only been running at PS.
Yes and yes.Does that mean the 221 EPS differentials will be retired on that section from the same date?
Can they run at MU speeds?
EPS - Enhanced Permissible Speeds. Put simply, these are the 'tilt' speeds 390s and 221s can use on the WCML. In some places a lower figure applies to the 221s vs 390s as the Super Voyagers have a lesser degree of tilting (6 degrees against 8).Igot told off by moderators for using station codes. Now I cannot understand the codes being used here like EPS PS MU etc for the uneducated like me please explain.
Enhanced Permissible Speed, Permissisble Speed, Multiple UnitIgot told off by moderators for using station codes. Now I cannot understand the codes being used here like EPS PS MU etc for the uneducated like me please explain.