I'm sure there used to be an internal drainage board covering the Lyth and Winster - I can remember a business contact being in dispute with it around 20 years ago due to its failure to actually drain the local landI expected there to be an internal drainage board for an area like this, but could find no trace of one. There was a consultation run by the Environment Agency in 2015 on their proposal for an IDN for South Cumbria, which would include the Winster catchment and much more. In it I found this explanation of the background:
The EA have a fixed budget, and a list of priorities for flood protection - houses, infrastructure, yes - but not agriculture, seen as a commercial activity able to pay for its own protection. So in the Lyth drainage area, they proposed withdrawing from paying for maintenance of pumps etc, and wanted to hand that over to the farmers (mainly). Obviously they felt a bit queasy about dumping a such a big bill on them, and tried to spread the costs over a much larger area. That (predictably) got a lot of objections from all those neighbouring areas, who didn't want to pay anything for no benefit to themselves.
Grange Town Council, for example, responded with:
So there is no drainage board to do anything; the EA are doing some maintenance work but are not likely to upgrade anything.
Because there is no sensible road route for the shuttle bus. Grange to Carnforth would work.The line will surely be shut longer than 2 weeks? Why don’t they run shuttle trains to Grange from barrow and then from Arnside to Lancaster. With a shuttle bus between
Because there is no sensible road route for the shuttle bus. Grange to Carnforth would work.
Great, I shall dread it tomorrow even more now then.There isn't a sensible road route for the shuttle bus even now . One reason the line is so popular is that the road routes are extremely tenuous.
I know one of the authors of the technical paper, from a time when he was working in this area, but for another company....and it was a long, long time ago!Network Rail do in fact manage the drainage of the area, so that article was misleading. In particular, they own and operate the tidal gates (sluice) at Arnside, the mouth of the Winster. Like all tidal gates, they can only work if "tidal locking" blocks the outflow for a short period at high tide. If the closure is too long, the river flow itself causes flooding.
This 2018 technical paper summarises the results of work commissioned by NR from AECOM, and is called "Managing legacy infrastructure into the future: the River Winster and Meathop Drain flood risk". I can't copy quotes from it, but it does talk about reopening the Seldom Seen culvert (i.e. it is blocked), and says that NR installed a small pump taking water "over the embankment", discharging "close to the Seldom Seen culvert". I think that must be what those pipes near the site of the collapse are for; they would be buried under the track.
There is, of course, a lot more to it, explained in the paper. Whatever you do the rivers, tides, and all that sand and silt will do their own thing in response. And as the man said, there is too much sand and silt in Morecambe Bay.
In the past when Fraser Eagle did the buses for engineering works, they tried running trains as far as Bare Lane on at least one occasion. And they have used Carnforth as the interchange in the past. There are issues with turning the vehicles round at some of the stations. Certainly Arnside and Silverdale are difficult to link in to the main A road network towards the Furness peninsula.
If the line is going to be out of action for a while, it may well be worth extending the trains currently terminating at Lancaster up to Windermere, and running the connections from Kendal.
At least it would get the passengers in roughly the right place, rather than a jaunt up the A6
There is already a scheduled hourly shuttle on the Windermere branch. It's not possible to add another train in to do this without changing this schedule, which would inconvenience locals. This also doesn't automatically line up.with paths on the WCML either due to freight paths so they can't just be ran through and many of the services that normally run to Barrow are run by crew that don't sign to Oxenholme or Windermere.If the line is going to be out of action for a while, it may well be worth extending the trains currently terminating at Lancaster up to Windermere, and running the connections from Kendal.
At least it would get the passengers in roughly the right place, rather than a jaunt up the A6!
There is already a scheduled hourly shuttle on the Windermere branch. It's not possible to add another train in to do this without changing this schedule, which would inconvenience locals. This also doesn't automatically line up.with paths on the WCML either due to freight paths so they can't just be ran through and many of the services that normally run to Barrow are run by crew that don't sign to Oxenholme or Windermere.
If I remember correctly when this was done back when tpe had the line they actually had trains shuttling between arnside/lancaster and the airportWhen they did Arnside viaduct, they ran fast from Carnforth to Grange. Arnside/Silverdale were served by a minibus. No viable facility for Arnside - Grange passengers.
I’m in agreement with this and have a shuttle between either Lancaster and Grange / carnforth and grange some people here saying issues with the road routes well TPE did it when the viaduct was closed for works some years ago. The real issue here is that was all planned well in advance and of course this was unexpected occurrence weather they’d be able to do it in the time frames debatable may not be feasibleThe line will surely be shut longer than 2 weeks? Why don’t they run shuttle trains to Grange from barrow and then from Arnside to Lancaster. With a shuttle bus between
If you're referring to running single line over the "unaffected" track between Arnside and Grange I'd be incredibly unconfident running anything over there at present looking at what's a few feet over from it!Having something shuttling between Lancaster and Grange would seem sensible.
I note that during the Eden Brows works, services ran single track for a considerable distance between Appleby and Armathwaite. Surely something similar could be arranged for Carnforth - Grange.
That would depend on what the problem is and how well it is understood. On the Plessey Viaduct last year, single line operation was in force when the track bed, parapet and part of the spandrel on the other side had literally fallen into the valley. Comment on another thread suggests that one track remains open past the landslip at New Mills.If you're referring to running single line over the "unaffected" track between Arnside and Grange I'd be incredibly unconfident running anything over there at present looking at what's a few feet over from it!
If you're referring to running single line over the "unaffected" track between Arnside and Grange I'd be incredibly unconfident running anything over there at present looking at what's a few feet over from it!
It might, but there are local service buses which do that job pretty well, running every 20 minutes. However, there are normally a few of the Carlisle trains which run to Lancaster, I'm not sure why they can't terminate at Ulverston rather than Barrow to offer something of a service.Looking at the locations of the Xovers, a shuttle train from Barrow to Ulverston should be possible.
Even a shuttle to Arnside would be better than nothing if the section beyond is blocked.
No crossover, at Arnside or Silverdale, so you'd be running wrong road all the way to or from Carnforth (depending on which line you used), which will obviously factor into the safety considerations. As there are 2 AHB Level Crossings a shuttle running wrong-road may well require local control of the level crossings or some other emergency working protocol.Lancaster to Arnside rail shuttle
Looking at the Signalling at Ulverston, it doesn't look like a cross-platform shunt from Up to Down is signalled. Making the move unsigalled isn't impossible (and my diagrams have a suggestion they might not be 100% accurate) but would certainly complicate things.Looking at the locations of the Xovers, a shuttle train from Barrow to Ulverston should be possible.
Both of these should be possible albeit manpower intensive. You would certainly need someone to clip the switch rails at Ulverston There might be more difficulties at the other end since presumably machinary will have to access the derailment site.No crossover, at Arnside or Silverdale, so you'd be running wrong road all the way to or from Carnforth (depending on which line you used), which will obviously factor into the safety considerations. As there are 2 AHB Level Crossings a shuttle running wrong-road may well require local control of the level crossings or some other emergency working protocol.
Looking at the Signalling at Ulverston, it doesn't look like a cross-platform shunt from Up to Down is signalled. Making the move unsigalled isn't impossible (and my diagrams have a suggestion they might not be 100% accurate) but would certainly complicate things.
Looking at Grange though, the shunt back over the crossover there would appear to be available as long as it's permitted to approach the Section Signal under the current circumstances?
Possible but is it a reasonable allocation of resources? And then there's the efficiency of the resource use at Barrow, especially if mileage inspections came into it. Sending MOMs to Carnforth and Ulverston to be clipping points all day for the handful of trains isn't really a good use of time.Both of these should be possible albeit manpower intensive. You would certainly need someone to clip the switch rails at Ulverston There might be more difficulties at the other end since presumably machinary will have to access the derailment site.
Does anybody think it will be fixed at grange by 8th April as stated? Feels a bit ambitious looking at the work required
There was talk of one being created but it didn't happen, AFAIK nothing has happened since 2019 and it's still the responsibility of the EAI'm sure there used to be an internal drainage board covering the Lyth and Winster - I can remember a business contact being in dispute with it around 20 years ago due to its failure to actually drain the local land
Courtesy of King - Furness Line group
Which currently would actually be the quicker journey from Barrow-in-Furness if say to Carlisle? The Cumbrian Coast rail route via Whitehaven, or a rail replacement bus to Lancaster, and then North by rail along the WCML?The BBC reporter on the spot is advising passengers to check if they should get a RRB or go via Carlisle. I suppose if you have a lot of time to spare...
Have they moved the train closer to the wall when they have lifted it, or has it ended so close to the wall when it derailed?Courtesy of King - Furness Line group
It’s well over to the wall in the previous overhead photos, post #175 refers.Have they moved the train closer to the wall when they have lifted it, or has it ended so close to the wall when it derailed?
And there in the second photo we can clearly see where the signal wires run and why they might have been severed during the incident. At that point, BOTH wires are hanging slack so I imagine the one that was previously still 'off' has been cut by the recovery workers.Courtesy of King - Furness Line group