New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR

[Annetts key]

The frequency is low on this route for a reason, this area of the country is relatively - to the rest of the UK - sparsely populated. I don't see enough demand and I think it's just a few dreamers playing trains. And if these services will use 75mph units, how will they be pathed to avoid 125mph GWR fasts?

And how long are the sections where the line speed is 125MPH? The difference in the maximum train speed is less important and less relevant if the line speed is closer to that of the slower train.

The biggest issue with running stopping services in-between fast services is the time taken up by stopping at stations (including braking and pulling away). But if there is spare line capacity, careful timetabling may be able to accommodate this.

On the subject of the requirement for improvements to the existing level crossings, do we know which eight level crossings these are and what the required improvements are? Or which type of level crossings these are?

 

[Starmill]

I think there are longer sections of 100 and up to 110 but I'm not sure where there's any 125?

 

[Mikey C]

The acceleration of the "stopping" units matters as well. A modern CAF DMU will have a higher top speed AND accelerate faster than the pedestrian 153s.

 

[Killingworth]

The acceleration of the "stopping" units matters as well. A modern CAF DMU will have a higher top speed AND accelerate faster than the pedestrian 153s.

Ad it stops a lot faster too.

 

[GWVillager]

The frequency is low on this route for a reason, this area of the country is relatively - to the rest of the UK - sparsely populated. I don't see enough demand and I think it's just a few dreamers playing trains. And if these services will use 75mph units, how will they be pathed to avoid 125mph GWR fasts?

Whilst the area is by no means brimming with megacities, it's not completely desolate, either. There are several quite sizeable towns on the route, and there are far smaller places with far better service.

As for pathing, the ORR doesn't give out approvals lightly, they have considered the application with respect to 15x timings and make it quite clear that they are satisfied the capacity exists in their decision letter: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-11/2024-11-15-go-op-s17-decision-letter.pdf

The most substantial objections that I think can be made to this proposal concern financial sustainability, especially as the 153s aren't getting any younger. But these are issues for Go-Op themselves, and dismissing their considerable efforts as impossible is not going to help them at all - it must be remembered that demand and political support are elastic.

 

[43096]

Whilst the area is by no means brimming with megacities, it's not completely desolate, either. There are several quite sizeable towns on the route, and there are far smaller places with far better service.

It’s not known as “The Desert” for nothing!

 

[SirDanielGooch]

The frequency is low on this route for a reason, this area of the country is relatively - to the rest of the UK - sparsely populated. I don't see enough demand and I think it's just a few dreamers playing trains. And if these services will use 75mph units, how will they be pathed to avoid 125mph GWR fasts?

I believe the demand is there, given the current service to a lot of these towns is almost 0. Open up Langport&Somerton, and improve the frequency of service to Castle Cary, Bruton, and Frome, and they become park and ride options for the decent sized towns of Shepton Mallet, Wincanton, Yeovil (for those trying to get to Taunton or faster route to Bristol, Wales, and the north), Glastonbury, Street, Midsomer Norton, and Radstock. There’s a LOT of reasonable sized towns in this area with an absolutely rubbish rail connection at present.

Pathing I’m not qualified to comment on really, apart from that there is spare capacity, especially between castle Cary and Taunton which is the longest stretch of fast running. Perhaps some resigalling or even a passing loop could be considered as part of building Langport & Somerton station could be a future solution if this does stick and causes GWR some problems.

 

[brad465]

I think there are longer sections of 100 and up to 110 but I'm not sure where there's any 125?

There's no 125mph running anywhere beyond Reading to this route. 110mph exists in sections as far west as Heywood Road jct, just east of Westbury. After that 100mph is the top speed, with some short 90-95mph sections near Bruton, through Castle Cary and through Cogload jct on the B&H route.

How realistic is Go-op grabbing some of TfW's departing rolling stock, such as the 150s? They're not in great condition either, but some of the better ones will be better than the in-store 153s, both in capacity and reliability. I would suggest the 158s but I can see a larger operator grabbing them first if they have a future.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And a class 153 is a poor use of scarce track capacity, even a pair of them.

Well, I'm not sure I agree on this. It's a relatively sparsely populated area for a new rail service, and it's good to start small for a startup to minimise additional costs. It's not like the Chippy to Trowbridge line is bursting at the seams too.

 

[Wychwood93]

Well, I'm not sure I agree on this. It's a relatively sparsely populated area for a new rail service, and it's good to start small for a startup to minimise additional costs. It's not like the Chippy to Trowbridge line is bursting at the seams too.

As has been pointed out before, the Thingley Junction to Bradford Junction section is single line. This, somewhat obviously, has implications on an increased service. Double-tracking would cost a lot, to say the least. The obvious place to have a loop would be Melksham. The current station is on the down side - constructing a platform etc. on the up side would no doubt cost £m++. As @irish_rail has pointed out, on many threads (!), Castle Cary to Somerton, certainly, and quite a bit (most) of the B&H needs re-signalling to provide extra capacity. This would be £m+++..... Most unlikely that Rachel Reeves will open her purse to allow this!

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst I wish them well I must admit I share the skepticism of many as to whether they'll actually get off the ground!

Part of me wonders if the ORR didn't authorise it, in part, to finally put the matter to bed once and for all. Either they get up and running and are successful in which case grand. Or they fail and that'll probably kill the idea of a co-op operator off permanently.

 

[irish_rail]

The biggest issue with running stopping services in-between fast services is the time taken up by stopping at stations (including braking and pulling away). But if there is spare line capacity, careful timetabling may be able to accommodate this.

Careful timetabling is all very well, but most B and H trains (westbound anyway) present on the western part of the B and H at least slightly late. This is due to a variety of factors, from leaving Paddington late due to the very short turnarounds, to delays following the Reading to Bedwyn stoppers. Either way, generally most intercity stuff is late by the Westbury area. The carefully timetabled GO OP , due to run 10 minutes behind the intercity then takes its booked path and causes the intercity to lose I reckon about another 20 minutes or so (compared to now when the intercity can potentially be on time again by Exeter / Plymouth depending on if the Weymouth gets in the way or not). Timetabling things carefully is great on paper, but in reality it will be problematic for this particular route.

 

[6Gman]

If there is a social, economical and "levelling-up" case for a link of this nature wouldn't that be better achieved by writing it into the relevant TOC franchise* rather than by introducing a new OAO with units to find, staff to train, maintenance to arrange etc etc ?


* I realise that the traditional TOC/franchise arrangement is changing but the principle remains.

 

[Bartsimho]

If there is a social, economical and "levelling-up" case for a link of this nature wouldn't that be better achieved by writing it into the relevant TOC franchise* rather than by introducing a new OAO with units to find, staff to train, maintenance to arrange etc etc ?


* I realise that the traditional TOC/franchise arrangement is changing but the principle remains.

I think you could make the argument that as they haven't explored it themselves when they have all the rights to that they aren't interested in the first place.

Also it's all private money so no need for any payment to anyone to have the service be run as I'm pretty sure if you tried to write this into a TOC contract they would be asking for some more money to make it happen

 

[Towers]

Good to see more open access operators

Is it?! More fragmentation is what passengers want, and what GBR needs to help it finally get some sort of grip on the nation’s mess of a rail network, then? And in this case, as others have pointed out, a group of apparent dreamers who’ve been wanting to play trains for years?

I’m sorry, I disagree completely!

The proposers of this particular venture would be better off looking to start a bus company and launch some express local services, they’d have a much better chance of success I feel.

 

[JonathanH]

And in this case, as others have pointed out, a group of apparent dreamers who’ve been wanting to play trains for years?

What would be interesting is whether the Go-op model could run the existing Bristol to Weymouth line without going bust. I imagine not.

It would be interesting to know what the effective subsidy is for the services on that route, which would no doubt translate to roughly the loss that may be made trying to run services between Swindon and Taunton.

 

[Towers]

What would be interesting is whether the Go-op model could run the existing Bristol to Weymouth line without going bust. I imagine not.

It would be interesting to know what the effective subsidy is for the services on that route, which would no doubt translate to roughly the loss that may be made trying to run services between Swindon and Taunton.

This has all been covered before of course, but in brief you cannot simply rock up with your handful of scrap DMUs and play trains on the network, “cooperative” or otherwise. Where are your drivers coming from - the equivalent TOC employment package will always be more attractive here. Where’s your depot, maintenance facilities, fitters, control office and suitably trained staff etc etc etc. Just no!

Hornby do a very nice class 153 in OO gauge these days…

 

[SirDanielGooch]

Is it?! More fragmentation is what passengers want, and what GBR needs to help it finally get some sort of grip on the nation’s mess of a rail network, then? And in this case, as others have pointed out, a group of apparent dreamers who’ve been wanting to play trains for years?

I’m sorry, I disagree completely!

The proposers of this particular venture would be better off looking to start a bus company and launch some express local services, they’d have a much better chance of success I feel.

What passengers want is an actual frequent local service. Something that GWR is unwilling/unable to provide. The ORR obviously agree with Go-Op that there is some potential demand here, and now Go-Op have a year to turn these aims into something concrete. What would you prefer? The cooperative to rock up with a full fleet, trained staff, and an expensive office having spent millions in the process, only for the ORR to turn around and say no? They deserve a chance to try and achieve something new in an innovative way, and I hope it works.

They’ve been given that chance now and let’s see where it takes things. It’s frankly immature and insulting to the local groups that really need this to just accuse people trying to achieve some public good of “playing trains” just because it’s a small cooperative trying to serve a local market rather than some investment firm backed corporation running yet another London service.

 

[John R]

The “playing trains” comment is used because this group have spent over 10 years coming up with numerous iterations of possible services including to Nuneaton and Bishops Lydeard. And with a suitably eclectic mix of rolling stock put forward each time. Every time nothing came of it.

It’s clear the ORR is sceptical too, but clearly it cannot be quite as blunt as posters on this forum. But you don’t have to read too far between the lines to see what it is saying.

 

[IanXC]

Careful timetabling is all very well, but most B and H trains (westbound anyway) present on the western part of the B and H at least slightly late. This is due to a variety of factors, from leaving Paddington late due to the very short turnarounds, to delays following the Reading to Bedwyn stoppers. Either way, generally most intercity stuff is late by the Westbury area. The carefully timetabled GO OP , due to run 10 minutes behind the intercity then takes its booked path and causes the intercity to lose I reckon about another 20 minutes or so (compared to now when the intercity can potentially be on time again by Exeter / Plymouth depending on if the Weymouth gets in the way or not). Timetabling things carefully is great on paper, but in reality it will be problematic for this particular route.

This rather sounds like GWR need to address late starts from Paddington. Then a good portion of these problems go away surely.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As has been pointed out before, the Thingley Junction to Bradford Junction section is single line. This, somewhat obviously, has implications on an increased service. Double-tracking would cost a lot, to say the least. The obvious place to have a loop would be Melksham. The current station is on the down side - constructing a platform etc. on the up side would no doubt cost £m++. As @irish_rail has pointed out, on many threads (!), Castle Cary to Somerton, certainly, and quite a bit (most) of the B&H needs re-signalling to provide extra capacity. This would be £m+++..... Most unlikely that Rachel Reeves will open her purse to allow this!

How many services could you squeeze in initially without any service improvements?

 

[Class172]

This rather sounds like GWR need to address late starts from Paddington. Then a good portion of these problems go away surely.

Indeed, in my experience if I’m on a train that is late having passed Westbury, it is often a result of being stuck behind a stopper near Newbury, but that in turn has only happened due to a late departure from Paddington.

 

[daodao]

I believe the demand is there, given the current service to a lot of these towns is almost 0. Open up Langport&Somerton, and improve the frequency of service to Castle Cary, Bruton, and Frome, and they become park and ride options for the decent sized towns of Shepton Mallet, Wincanton, Yeovil (for those trying to get to Taunton or faster route to Bristol, Wales, and the north), Glastonbury, Street, Midsomer Norton, and Radstock. There’s a LOT of reasonable sized towns in this area with an absolutely rubbish rail connection at present.

Pathing I’m not qualified to comment on really, apart from that there is spare capacity, especially between castle Cary and Taunton which is the longest stretch of fast running. Perhaps some resigalling or even a passing loop could be considered as part of building Langport & Somerton station could be a future solution if this does stick and causes GWR some problems.

Since 1930 or thereabouts, British railways started closing unremunerative rural lines and minor stations on main lines that got in the way of faster through trains, but many lingered on. It needed Beeching and his report "The reshaping of British Railways" to complete this process, although some lines and stations that should have been closed escaped the axe (and vice-versa). Re-introducing such a service, as this Go-op company proposes, would be futile. For reference, the sparse service calling at Langport and Somerton stations comprised a mere 5 railmotors daily (except Sundays) in 1910 and 4 trains daily (except Sundays) in 1961, the year before their closure.

There may be a case for re-opening a station at Somerton, as its population has grown and it could serve as a railhead for Street and Glastonbury, but it would best be served by the 2-hourly London Paddington-Exeter semi-fast trains, which would provide a direct service to the capital. This station re-opening proposal has been suggested for a number of years, and was included on the "Restoring Your Railway" programme, but has now been shelved.

Apart from the Castle Cary-Taunton segment, there are existing subsidised local services, at least 2-hourly, on the route proposed by Go-op, which should be adequate for the meagre custom in this lightly populated rural area. New local rail service proposals really should be confined to services into major conurbations, like the Northumberland line re-opening, where there is likely to be much higher demand and road traffic congestion is a significant problem.

 

[Snow1964]

How many services could you squeeze in initially without any service improvements?

The line was originally double track (broad gauge), and had triangular junctions both ends (although those at Thingley Junction were a world war 2 addition (there were vast navy gun shells, and D Day invasion ammunition stockpiled in the former underground quarries near Corsham).

I believe Go-Op wants to use part of the Admiralty sidings at Thingley for a servicing depot (a couple of sidings are still there, although rusty) along with small building that used to have track through it.

As it stands there is nowadays a single lead crossing at both ends, so northbound trains (from Trowbridge) block the line towards Bath if they cannot enter the single line section (and there are generally 3-4 passenger trains per hour + one freight through Trowbridge, each way). The signalling on line through Trowbridge is 2 aspect with distants, and with small halts like Avoncliffe effectively has a maximum of one train about every 8 mins (nearer 10 mins if not higher performance, or same type). With 4-5 trains each way per hour though Trowbridge not that much slack with the rather limited 1984 era signalling

South of Trowbridge it is not uncommon for local trains to be delayed waiting for platform at Westbury (only 3 of the 4 platforms are in use, following rationalisation about 40 years ago). And even though Westbury is now busier, the upcoming 4 week closure from Christmas doesn't restore the 4th platform to ease the waiting for platform.

Ideally need a loop just north of Bradford junctions, or double lead junction restored and short bit of double line, so that trains for Melksham line do not block the line to Bath, and then another loop near Melksham (cheaper if near, but not at station as platform was demolished).

Might be appropriate to link photos of Melksham station

Old Pictures of Melksham Station

Old Pictures of Melksham Station

www.savethetrain.org.uk

And a link to photos of the sidings at Thingley Junction where the proposed depot will be

Thingley Junction.

In the early 1980s,the overnight Glasgow to Bristol sleeper service has been diverted between Gloucester and Bristol.Having travelled via Swindon,the train is seen here passing Thingley Junction,near Chippenham,as it heads for Bristol behind an unidentified class 45 loco.

www.flickr.com

rudloescene.co.uk - Thingley - Jun 2018

New page

www.rudloescene.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

How many services could you squeeze in initially without any service improvements?

The line was originally double track (broad gauge), and had triangular junctions both ends (although those at Thingley Junction were a world war 2 addition (there were vast navy gun shells, and D Day invasion ammunition stockpiled in the former underground quarries near Corsham).

I believe Go-Op wants to use part of the Admiralty sidings at Thingley for a servicing depot (a couple of sidings are still there, although rusty) along with small building that used to have track through it.

As it stands there is nowadays a single lead crossing at both ends, so northbound trains (from Trowbridge) block the line towards Bath if they cannot enter the single line section (and there are generally 3-4 passenger trains per hour + one freight through Trowbridge, each way). The signalling on line through Trowbridge is 2 aspect with distants, and with small halts like Avoncliffe effectively has a maximum of one train about every 8 mins (nearer 10 mins if not higher performance, or same type). With 4-5 trains each way per hour though Trowbridge not that much slack with the rather limited 1984 era signalling

South of Trowbridge it is not uncommon for local trains to be delayed waiting for platform at Westbury (only 3 of the 4 platforms are in use, following rationalisation about 40 years ago). And even though Westbury is now busier, the upcoming 4 week closure from Christmas doesn't restore the 4th platform to ease the waiting for platform.

Ideally need a loop just north of Bradford junctions, or double lead junction restored and short bit of double line, so that trains for Melksham line do not block the line to Bath, and then another loop near Melksham (cheaper if near, but not at station as platform was demolished).

Might be appropriate to link photos of Melksham station

Old Pictures of Melksham Station

Old Pictures of Melksham Station

www.savethetrain.org.uk

And a link to photos of the sidings at Thingley Junction where the proposed depot will be

Thingley Junction.

In the early 1980s,the overnight Glasgow to Bristol sleeper service has been diverted between Gloucester and Bristol.Having travelled via Swindon,the train is seen here passing Thingley Junction,near Chippenham,as it heads for Bristol behind an unidentified class 45 loco.

www.flickr.com

rudloescene.co.uk - Thingley - Jun 2018

New page

www.rudloescene.co.uk

Bradford Jn to Thingley is treated as a single absolute block section in planning terms. If you aren't stopping at Melksham you could probably squeeze 2tph each way but it would be incredibly tight. Hawkeridge to Bradford Jn is a 4 minute headway and 6 minutes on to Bathampton Jn.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

Since 1930 or thereabouts, British railways started closing unremunerative rural lines and minor stations on main lines that got in the way of faster through trains, but many lingered on. It needed Beeching and his report "The reshaping of British Railways" to complete this process, although some lines and stations that should have been closed escaped the axe (and vice-versa). Re-introducing such a service, as this Go-op company proposes, would be futile. For reference, the sparse service calling at Langport and Somerton stations comprised a mere 5 railmotors daily (except Sundays) in 1910 and 4 trains daily (except Sundays) in 1961, the year before their closure.

There may be a case for re-opening a station at Somerton, as its population has grown and it could serve as a railhead for Street and Glastonbury, but it would best be served by the 2-hourly London Paddington-Exeter semi-fast trains, which would provide a direct service to the capital. This station re-opening proposal has been suggested for a number of years, and was included on the "Restoring Your Railway" programme, but has now been shelved.

Apart from the Castle Cary-Taunton segment, there are existing subsidised services, at least 2-hourly, on the route proposed by Go-op, which should be adequate for the meagre custom in this lightly populated rural area. New local rail service proposals really should be confined to services into major conurbations, like the Northumberland line re-opening, where there is likely to be much higher demand and road traffic congestion is a significant problem.

Population of Langport + Huish Episcopi (the two parishes have essentially merged) in 1961 was Approx. 1700. Population today? Just over 6000. Population of Somerton in 1961, 2100. Today? 5,400. Glastonbury & Street has grown from 13,000 combined in 1961 to 22,500. Not as lightly populated as it used to be, and the constant clogging up of our roads is some proof of that. The current GWR service is lacking, 1 train every 2 hours means your plans are 1 cancellation away from getting ruined. I’ve been stranded at Castle Cary and Bridgwater plenty of times, and I wouldn’t even attempt to travel on Sundays.

 

[30907]

What passengers want is an actual frequent local service.

But is that what Go-op are actually proposing - a core service of "six or more" trains daily between Taunton and Westbury and "some" extensions either end hardly classes as frequent?
(The only published proposal (for Bishops Lydeard not Weston) matches that description and has 2 afternoon and one evening extra via Melksham.)

 

[SirDanielGooch]

But is that what Go-op are actually proposing - a core service of "six or more" trains daily between Taunton and Westbury and "some" extensions either end hardly classes as frequent?
(The only published proposal (for Bishops Lydeard not Weston) matches that description and has 2 afternoon and one evening extra via Melksham.)

In combination with the existing GWR services that’s enough to make it 1tph on the core service at peak hours which is sufficient imo as a starting point.

 

[6Gman]

I think you could make the argument that as they haven't explored it themselves when they have all the rights to that they aren't interested in the first place.

Also it's all private money so no need for any payment to anyone to have the service be run as I'm pretty sure if you tried to write this into a TOC contract they would be asking for some more money to make it happen

I wouldn't expect the TOCs to be looking for enhanced loss-making services but if there's a broader social case then the relevant public authority (DfT in this case, but could be regional mayors in other circumstances) could commission such enhancements.

 

[brad465]

Population of Langport + Huish Episcopi (the two parishes have essentially merged) in 1961 was Approx. 1700. Population today? Just over 6000. Population of Somerton in 1961, 2100. Today? 5,400. Glastonbury & Street has grown from 13,000 combined in 1961 to 22,500. Not as lightly populated as it used to be, and the constant clogging up of our roads is some proof of that. The current GWR service is lacking, 1 train every 2 hours means your plans are 1 cancellation away from getting ruined. I’ve been stranded at Castle Cary and Bridgwater plenty of times, and I wouldn’t even attempt to travel on Sundays.

Ideally there would be two stations reopened here, one for Langport and one for Somerton to help serve both. However all proposals seem to focus on one station for the whole area, putting it in between these two settlements, which actually makes it inconvenient for both places, especially if you're only travelling locally. Glastonbury & Street residents are probably too far from the railway to utilise any station in this area for local services, although if one of them got some London trains they'd opt for that over Castle Cary.