I suspect 4 tracking wouldn't be too beneficial given there's ultimately the conflicts between Bay - Taff and Central - Heath services. Like say we get a direct line from p5 to Cathays that means trams crossing the full set of tracks to the south. So idk how beneficial it'd really be. I suspect they could do 3 tracking across Newport road and get most of any potential benefits with much lower costs. Though it would mean rethinking the platform utilisation.
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South Wales 'Metro' expansion, including Hirwaun?
- Thread starter Envoy
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If (hypothetically) TfW were to four-track between Queen Street and the junction between the Cathays and Rhymney lines, it would make sense to totally rebuild Queen St station to facilitate cross-platform transfers. That would mean large island platforms and lines paired by direction, allowing passengers to quickly switch between trains heading torwards Rhymney or Pontypridd (northbound) or between Central and Cardiff Bay (southbound). I suspect this also quickly gets into needing a grade-separated junction, which would probably involve the demolition of Cardiff University's Senghennydd Court hall of residence (no big loss, tbh, it's old and knackered!). Starts getting very expensive though!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Pairing by direction inevitably means that trains from Cathays will conflict with trains towards Rhymney on the north end junction. That being so, four tracks gives very little extra benefit compared with three. The area is probably constrained by dwell times at the platforms, not by occupancy of the junction.
Last Hurrah
Member
If Cardiff West Junction is remodelled, the issue of terminating Treherbert trains occupying platform 7 for 32 minutes each hour could be addressed by trains continuing to Ninian Park and waiting in a bay platform adjacent to platform 1
A couple of tracks are there for stabling NR tamping machines albeit set back a yard or so from the platform edge which has fencing
A couple of tracks are there for stabling NR tamping machines albeit set back a yard or so from the platform edge which has fencing
Tetragon213
Member
Having spoken to a few friends who work on CVL, none of them have given any indications of anything concrete at Hirwaun as of yet.
FWIW they did mention seeing old documentation with plans for stations at "M4 Park and Ride" and "Velindre", but they also followed up by saying the documents involved were likely out of date, and one of them mentioned remembering the chainage values being completely wrong.
FWIW they did mention seeing old documentation with plans for stations at "M4 Park and Ride" and "Velindre", but they also followed up by saying the documents involved were likely out of date, and one of them mentioned remembering the chainage values being completely wrong.
Demolition of Senghetto Court would honestly be an improvement to the living conditions there!
Tomos y Tanc
Member
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And that stretch of line could be much more problematic to build that it looks on a map. The old Cardiff Railway Company trackbed peaters out pretty soon beyond Coryton.
daodao
Established Member
The old Cardiff Railway trackbed is extant (in a deep cutting) to just below the car park of the Asda store off Longwood Drive; it is currently a public footpath. It is only beyond this point that the trackbed has mostly been obliterated.
daodao
Established Member
A park and ride (P&R) station at M4 J32 would have quick access to the M4 and A470, unlike other rail stations on the NW side of Cardiff. Coryton to Queen Street is actually 16 minutes, so maybe 19 minutes from a P&R at J32. Radyr to Queen Street (via Llandaf) is currently 13 minutes, so might be 18 minutes from a P&R at J32 if the circle was ever completed. This assumes that there would be no delays at a new junction north of Radyr, given that it is planned to operate 12 tph in each direction to/from Pontypridd and beyond. However, a P&R station at J32 would require a train service every 15 minutes, and thus a dynamic passing loop on the branch at/near Rhiwbina.
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It may be that the P&R is marketed more at serving the hospitals rather than the city centre, with people taking a short hop to Velindre or a slightly longer journey to the Heath (via the proposed new station at Roath Park). This wouldn't necessarily be for patients, but for hospital staff. There are similar arrangements in Cambridge, with staff encouraged to park at a P&R site and either take a guided bus or cycle to the hospital (which is about 1.5 miles away).
Envoy
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The last thing they need is people driving down from the valleys to a P&R at M4 J32 in north Cardiff. The people from the valleys should really just head to their nearest station.
I can’t see a P&R at J32 being desirable for east - west traffic on the M4 either. Again, they should be accessing trains near their start points if heading into Cardiff.
The completion of the missing link between Coryton & Radyr would be desirable. People from the central valleys could change at Radyr for easy access to the new Velindre Hospital and Heath Hospital via a new station at Wedal Road.
I can’t see a P&R at J32 being desirable for east - west traffic on the M4 either. Again, they should be accessing trains near their start points if heading into Cardiff.
The completion of the missing link between Coryton & Radyr would be desirable. People from the central valleys could change at Radyr for easy access to the new Velindre Hospital and Heath Hospital via a new station at Wedal Road.
Not sure if this counts as 'expansion' but the plans for Cardiff Central redevelopment are supposed to be published very shortly - with stated intention to submit planning permission before end of the year (looking unlikely).
The 'Metro Central' plans published by Cardiff Capital Region had the following aspirations:
- Extend Platform 0 to enable 9 car trains - which would involve significant remodelling of main (north) station building.
- New above platform concourse - presumably at western end of main station building (hopefully demolishing M&S)
- New platform canopy across all platforms (or only platforms 0-4?)
- improved access to South of station - presumably connecting to new above platform concourse - with South becoming main station entrance for cars.
There have been various renders and concepts published over the years but it will be interesting to see what we actually get....
The 'Metro Central' plans published by Cardiff Capital Region had the following aspirations:
- Extend Platform 0 to enable 9 car trains - which would involve significant remodelling of main (north) station building.
- New above platform concourse - presumably at western end of main station building (hopefully demolishing M&S)
- New platform canopy across all platforms (or only platforms 0-4?)
- improved access to South of station - presumably connecting to new above platform concourse - with South becoming main station entrance for cars.
There have been various renders and concepts published over the years but it will be interesting to see what we actually get....
Western 52
Established Member
Is funded actually allocated for this? I'd imagine a bill of £100m or more. I doubt Welsh Government have that to spare.
Cardiff Central Enhancements FAQ | Transport for Wales
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tfw.wales
What he said above....
While some of the earlier renders looked amazing, i am certain that these will have been value engineered to a shadow of their former selves. But the need to ensure passenger safety while inceasing capacity pretty much mandates an over the platform concourse, and everything else flows from that.
A minimalist approach that tries to maintain the existing layout just wont work so I expect the traditionalists will be very upset by whatever is proposed.
While some of the earlier renders looked amazing, i am certain that these will have been value engineered to a shadow of their former selves. But the need to ensure passenger safety while inceasing capacity pretty much mandates an over the platform concourse, and everything else flows from that.
A minimalist approach that tries to maintain the existing layout just wont work so I expect the traditionalists will be very upset by whatever is proposed.
I don't suppose they could get the people from St Fagans to move or deconstruct the current art-deco station building 10m or so north into the middle of Central Square? This would give them a lot of space to build a larger concourse behind the existing building and turn platform 0 into a full-size platform, without having to radically alter the listed station building. Plus it would make Central Square feel less like a large empty expanse that it does now.
Considering the station building is pretty small that honestly doesn't seem like that crazy of an idea. For example back in the 90's the Old Wellington Inn in Manchester was deconstructed and moved 300m towards the Cathedral, and St Fagans deconstructed and moved a entire 2-storey workman's institute miles away from it's original location, so it's certainly possible. For a building that's so iconic to Cardiff's history it would be a shame to loose it.
Considering the station building is pretty small that honestly doesn't seem like that crazy of an idea. For example back in the 90's the Old Wellington Inn in Manchester was deconstructed and moved 300m towards the Cathedral, and St Fagans deconstructed and moved a entire 2-storey workman's institute miles away from it's original location, so it's certainly possible. For a building that's so iconic to Cardiff's history it would be a shame to loose it.
It’s Grade II listed, so I doubt that demolishing it is an option. But it certainly could be re-sited as you describe.
The listing citation covers the booking hall, pedestrian subway and the GWR-era platform buildings, and says that the reason for listing is its “completeness”, so it’s very unlikely that any of those features would be removed.
The listing citation covers the booking hall, pedestrian subway and the GWR-era platform buildings, and says that the reason for listing is its “completeness”, so it’s very unlikely that any of those features would be removed.
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All the designs I've seen involve retention of the existing structure within the new building, with a glass front so you can see the facade. They must be getting on for ten years old by now, though, so things might have changed. For example:
www.walesonline.co.uk
New plans to transform Cardiff Central Train Station revealed
Network Rail Wales is hoping that multi-million pound plans to revamp Cardiff Train Station will be included in the UK Government's next rail investment programme
www.walesonline.co.uk
From what I've read the building itself is actually attached to a frame structure and it's that which is attached to the surrounding ground and building. So I think the idea would be you move that and everything else comes with it. Obviously it's not an easy task but it's not a full demolition and rebuild either.
While relocating the building is not impossible it is probably impractical and uneconomic. I think they are going to remove the roof with the platform extending over the existing building. This would retain the facade but I am not sure if the booking hall could be retained. The tunnel would remain but as a secondary route - possibly for exit only.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Are the retail/food units either side of the barrier line under the platform 0 track or to the north of it? If they are to the north then they could take a bite out of the upper rear of the building to extend platform 0, which I don't think would affect the booking hall much.
Topological
Established Member
The below plan generated from openstreetmap and linked from Wikipedia shows the layout. The booking hall does have a wall next to the track on the line for 0 and hence that wall would have to go to allow the platform to be extended. The image shows the booking hall in brown against the track for platform 0. Platform 0 is offset to the left in the picture.
IF the building is not moved then the booking hall will have to go and only a facade be kept.
I would be using the land between the faces of 4 and 1 to get an extra island in, but that would mean losing all the buildings. Most facilities would be on a wide bridge at the west end and only small facilities would be on the platform a la Reading.
IF the building is not moved then the booking hall will have to go and only a facade be kept.
I would be using the land between the faces of 4 and 1 to get an extra island in, but that would mean losing all the buildings. Most facilities would be on a wide bridge at the west end and only small facilities would be on the platform a la Reading.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
They could at least start with something very comparatively minor and paint the nasty faded green bunting style roofs of the platforms red. It looks so scruffy as it is.
The south side of the booking hall is hard up against track 0 so this wall would have to go with platform encroaching maybe 2m into building.
This would retain all of Northern facade and most of Eastern and Western facade.
It might be possible to retain most if not all of the art deco roof by using it as the platform canopy - with upper level platform separated from lower level booking hall by a glass wall - with platform access at each end of booking hall.
To do this it would be necessary to retain some columns adjacent to track- this could be done with careful planning of door openings...
I have just found these superb drawings of Cardiff Central on the Network Rail site. I had no idea that there was so much space under the tracks - including a beer cellar!!
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
This would retain all of Northern facade and most of Eastern and Western facade.
It might be possible to retain most if not all of the art deco roof by using it as the platform canopy - with upper level platform separated from lower level booking hall by a glass wall - with platform access at each end of booking hall.
To do this it would be necessary to retain some columns adjacent to track- this could be done with careful planning of door openings...
I have just found these superb drawings of Cardiff Central on the Network Rail site. I had no idea that there was so much space under the tracks - including a beer cellar!!
Cardiff Central - original drawing 1
Information for journalists, press, bloggers and the media about Network Rail. Contact the press office to receive news, updates, press releases, videos, pictures, and factsheets, and to arrange interviews, filming and photography
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
Cardiff Central - original drawing 2
Information for journalists, press, bloggers and the media about Network Rail. Contact the press office to receive news, updates, press releases, videos, pictures, and factsheets, and to arrange interviews, filming and photography
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
Cardiff Central - original drawing 3
Information for journalists, press, bloggers and the media about Network Rail. Contact the press office to receive news, updates, press releases, videos, pictures, and factsheets, and to arrange interviews, filming and photography
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
There are minimum standards for platform width and for clearance of columns or other obstructions from the platform edge, and at a busy station a greater than standard width might be needed for safe passenger flow. These would make the cut into the south side of the building considerably more than 2m (depending on how far the wall is from the track). It would need columns further back and some kind of cantilevered structure to support the southern edge of the roof. Not impossible but sounding rather costly.
I don't know the minimum clearances but you could extend platform 4m into building relatively easily without any platform obstructions or constraints - but it would limit how much of vaulted roof that could be retained.
I guess we will find out soon enough.
I guess we will find out soon enough.
Snow1964
Established Member
Wales News appears to have a Heads Up that an announcement will happen next week on rail funding of capital works (jointly by UK and Welsh Government)
Lots of potential schemes mentioned, including metro improvements, Cardiff upgrades, new stations, electrification etc
(Will try and quote later, but iPad is refusing to copy at moment)
www.walesonline.co.uk
Lots of potential schemes mentioned, including metro improvements, Cardiff upgrades, new stations, electrification etc
(Will try and quote later, but iPad is refusing to copy at moment)
UK and Welsh governments to announce direction of travel to address rail scandal
It builds on discussions between Welsh Transport Secretary Ken Skates his UK Government counterpart Heidi Alexander and Welsh Secretary Jo Stevens
www.walesonline.co.uk