News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[Bletchleyite]

But not that much longer. The walk for (ramp) barrier to train can be quite a way at Euston compared to Kings Cross

At Euston it varies more. From being able to see one of the transverse boards to the P12 "gateline" is probably about 20 steps and takes under 10 seconds. But Platform 1 or 16 can take more than a minute.

 

[Krokodil]

I was glad when Manchester Airport stopped displaying trains on the board until it actually departed, you used to be trying to dispatch and getting swamped by people running up because they'd seen the "next train to Piccadilly" board - there's another one in five minutes! Three minutes is excessive however.

 

[KNN]

I could see sense in progressive removal - off the main boards at 3 minutes, off the platform boards only when the platform can no longer be accessed (because people will want to confirm before they board).

That isn't totally true, though, it takes no more than 10 seconds to get from being able to see a main board at Euston to the Platform 12 gate. At Kings Cross the walks are longer to be fair.

Some people who know exactly what they are doing could do it quicker on some platforms, but they wouldn't be there with that little time to spare and no idea which platform they needed.

I'm a bit surprised the people on this forum are all het up about it, it happens already at New Street and has for years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a bit surprised the people on this forum are all het up about it, it happens already at New Street and has for years.

At 3 minutes? I'm not sure that is correct, I'm certain I've seen WMT services on there right up to departure.

 

[KNN]

This doesn't reduce the risk caused by people running. It just moves that risk elsewhere, which seems to be a classic railway "solution" to risk problems nowadays.

Yes, it will reduce the number of very late people who run inside the station.

But the subset of people who are a little bit late, but still know they have enough time to make their train's real departure time, will now be forced to run outside the station to ensure they reach the concourse with more time to spare to read the departure boards. Maybe they'll now play chicken with pedestrian crossing lights and be hit by a bus, instead of falling over a suitcase inside the station. But that will never be blamed on the railway, so it's all fine.

This is a bit fanciful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a bit fanciful.

It's not. The railway's "eliminate all risks at any cost" approach does transfer risk elsewhere, such as onto the roads for those who can't afford the higher fares that result from more expensive safety projects.

(Though obviously this one costs the railway basically nothing bar the cost of someone clicking a couple of menu options and typing a number 3 presumably).

 

[KNN]

At 3 minutes? I'm not sure that is correct, I'm certain I've seen WMT services on there right up to departure.

Some services go off the board, certainly the Cross City ones go a few minutes before scheduled departure.

It's not all trains, but nor is this. There isn't even an NR press release I can find, it's just someone on twitter with a photo of a poster and a lot of conjecture.

It's not. The railway's "eliminate all risks at any cost" approach does transfer risk elsewhere, such as onto the roads for those who can't afford the higher fares that result from more expensive safety projects.

(Though obviously this one costs the railway basically nothing bar the cost of someone clicking a couple of menu options and typing a number 3 presumably).

An imaginary person who doesn't know which platform their train is due to leave from but does know it goes off the boards 3 minutes before departure, running across the road and being hit by a bus? All because Network Rail decided to change the display boards very slightly.

That seems a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[43066]

But the subset of people who are a little bit late, but still know they have enough time to make their train's real departure time, will now be forced to run outside the station to ensure they reach the concourse with more time to spare to read the departure boards. Maybe they'll now play chicken with pedestrian crossing lights and be hit by a bus, instead of falling over a suitcase inside the station. But that will never be blamed on the railway, so it's all fine.

Or they could just manage their time a bit better and not have to run at all!? The logical extension of this argument is that the railway should not have a timetable at all, just in case it causes some people to rush.

 

[Haywain]

An imaginary person who doesn't know which platform their train is due to leave from but does know it goes off the boards 3 minutes before departure, running across the road and being hit by a bus? All because Network Rail decided to change the display boards very slightly.

That seems a bit of a stretch to me.

As is the idea that under the previous system they were going to take a casual stroll to the station and start sprinting when they saw the platform number displayed. The fact is that people running late will rush, both before they reach the station and once they get there.

 

[Failed Unit]

People coming from the tube station has a lovely monitor near the tube station to know where they are heading anyway, so they should have this information 3 minutes before departure. As a creature of habit, look at the app on the way to the station, if no platform is displayed just head to the one it normally goes from. If there is a big crowd on the concourse you know you have a problem. (as the chances are the services is delayed / cancelled)

 

[arb]

This is a bit fanciful.

The specific example I picked (somebody now playing chicken with a pedestrian crossing and being hit by a bus) is obviously fanciful, and an extreme consequence at the highly unlikely end of the scale.

But the general point is not. Decisions such as this move risk elsewhere. They don't eliminate risk.

 

[Camberman]

People with mobility issues and people with young children may well need significantly longer time to reach trains from concourses. This should be factored in when deciding when to delete departures from the concourse information screens.

 

[Failed Unit]

People with mobility issues and people with young children may well need significantly longer time to reach trains from concourses. This should be factored in when deciding when to delete departures from the concourse information screens.

Why should this matter, if they take 10 minutes to get to the platform. They will not make it if they only arrive 3 minutes before departure. If they arrive 10 minutes before departure they know where the train is, if it is deleted before they get there, they keep walking.

People with mobility issues have to arrive early anyway, I know from personal experience if you turn up with a wheelchair 3 minutes before departure, you are not getting on the train.

 

[arb]

Or they could just manage their time a bit better and not have to run at all!?

Perhaps the reason I'm running late to arrive at King's Cross isn't my fault? Maybe I was delayed on my cross-London tube connection? Maybe I had to queue for ages to use the lift at Paddington because I'm not allowed to take my suitcase on the escalator any more? (for people who don't get the joke, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...line-escalator-luggage-shaming-camera.275326/)

 

[MikeWM]

Perhaps the reason I'm running late to arrive at King's Cross isn't my fault? Maybe I was delayed on my cross-London tube connection?

Particularly relevant given how unreliable and prone to extreme bunching the Piccadilly line has become in recent years, given we're talking about King's Cross. 10 years ago you could pretty much rely on the service on the Piccadilly line in my experience, now it is a shambles almost every time I try to use it.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's not. The railway's "eliminate all risks at any cost" approach does transfer risk elsewhere, such as onto the roads for those who can't afford the higher fares that result from more expensive safety projects.

"Exporting the risk"

The infamous Mexico Inn foot crossing saga, where a well-used foot crossing on a 2tph line, used by many people to reach the beach, was eliminated after its first fatal accident in its 160-year existence, forcing people to walk a mile round, half of it on a busy 40mph A-road with no footway, and a blind bend where it crossed the railway.

Much greater risk, but no longer NR's problem.

Or they could just manage their time a bit better and not have to run at all!?

People have busy lives and cannot always organise them to suit the railway timetable. I have already given the example of school start times.

But, as my boss said when I phoned in from hospital after my accident; better to be late in this world than early in the next

 

[Tetchytyke]

The railway's "eliminate all risks at any cost" approach does transfer risk elsewhere

That's not a bug, that's a feature. The railway's attitude has long been to simply make it someone else's problem.

@norbitonflyer has beaten me to it.

 

[357]

Just to add, I work out of Kings Cross and regularly buy things in the shops next to the departure screens. When it's busy it's easily a 3-4 minute walk to the furthest platforms.

 

[43066]

It's not. The railway's "eliminate all risks at any cost" approach does transfer risk elsewhere, such as onto the roads for those who can't afford the higher fares that result from more expensive safety projects.

(Though obviously this one costs the railway basically nothing bar the cost of someone clicking a couple of menu options and typing a number 3 presumably).

If the roads need to be made safer that’s a different discussion, and it isn’t the railway’s responsibility.

Perhaps the reason I'm running late to arrive at King's Cross isn't my fault? Maybe I was delayed on my cross-London tube connection?

It isn’t your fault, but it isn’t the railway‘s fault either. If it is the railway’s fault, you can have recourse to delay repay and use an advanced ticket on a subsequent train etc.

People have busy lives and cannot always organise them to suit the railway timetable. I have already given the example of school start times.

But, as my boss said when I phoned in from hospital after my accident; better to be late in this world than early in the next

Isn’t this another argument against having a timetable at all!? Clearly it won’t be feasible for all parts of the railway to operate on a turn-up-and-go basis (although some of it does!). The railway offers the choice of open tickets and advances to suit - and I don’t really see the relevance of school start times when the railway (most of it) operates from 0600 until midnight or later?

Presumably people who were flying to Edinburgh would expect to turn up at the airport an hour or more before their fight left, so I’m not sure why it’s so much of an ask to arrive (say) ten to fifteen minutes prior to departure of a train at Kings Cross.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just to add, I work out of Kings Cross and regularly buy things in the shops next to the departure screens. When it's busy it's easily a 3-4 minute walk to the furthest platforms.

Hang on... I don't use Kings Cross that regularly, but are there no departure screens near the platforms? It's definitely not a 3-4 minute walk from the concourse to the platforms - if you're considering the nearest part of the concourse to the platform entrances.

 

[infobleep]

I can see the point to this.

Today the 1227 London - Cambridge service was still at the platform at 1230. It was no longer on the board. I may have attempted to catch it if it was still on the board.

I was intending to get the 1257 so it would be an unexpected bonus.

The but is of course that regular users know which platform their train departs from, so they will still run even with the train removed from the board. But for a lot of trains at Kings Cross, in particular the LNER ones, if you are only looking at the departure board 3 minutes before hand, you are going to struggle to get the train. (Best case scenario Just getting on the rear door)

At London Waterloo trains are removed in advance but there wouldbe times when said train night depart up to 6 minutes late but because it was displayed as on time, it would be removed from the board.

Of course you get the opposite. At Clapham Junction trains replaced on the footbridge platform screens after the trains have departed.

 

[Failed Unit]

Hang on... I don't use Kings Cross that regularly, but are there no departure screens near the platforms? It's definitely not a 3-4 minute walk from the concourse to the platforms - if you're considering the nearest part of the concourse to the platform entrances.

Yes, both near platforms 9&10 and the main concourse entrances. They also have them on the passageway for London underground. I always use these to confirm where my train is, so I don’t need to look at platform level. Kings Cross rarely has last minute changes to platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably people who were flying to Edinburgh would expect to turn up at the airport an hour or more before their fight left, so I’m not sure why it’s so much of an ask to arrive (say) ten to fifteen minutes prior to departure of a train at Kings Cross.

Because trains aren't aircraft, and if (like Eurostar) you start to make them like aircraft they lose some of their advantages and the car becomes ever more attractive. (The car isn't a viable competitor to most flights, it is a viable competitor to most train journeys).

 

[357]

Hang on... I don't use Kings Cross that regularly, but are there no departure screens near the platforms? It's definitely not a 3-4 minute walk from the concourse to the platforms - if you're considering the nearest part of the concourse to the platform entrances.

The end of the departure screen showing the soonest departures is closest to the buffer stops of platform 9/10 by the Harry Potter shop.

Late in the evening it's not such an issue but when the concourse is busy it's a pain.

The ticket gates by the buffers of platform 0-8 is for exit only, the entry gates being by the buffers of platform 8 from the new concourse.

 

[infobleep]

What would happen in cases where a train is shown on the board as on time and it is two minutes prior to its departure and they switxh the platform.

This happened more than once at London Euston between 2010 and 2013.

May be things have improved there but I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It wouldn't stop the hardened daily travellers who run because they have the gut reaction of 'oh no, my train's going in 1 minute and if I miss this I'm not going to see my kids before bedtime'

Hardened daily travellers generally run because they know from grim experience that the next train is very possibly cancelled.

 

[infobleep]

I know I was (very fit, not violent) when I used to aim to catch trains with mere minutes to spare. It's my time, what business is it of the railway how fine I cut it? On the vanishingly rare occasion I left it too late, I just took it on the chin. My fault.

I use to rush between Euston and Watloo when I worked in Harrow and lived in Guildford, between 2010 and 2013. I was contracting.

I would have preferred to travel on the West London Line but in the evening peak, no fast trains from London Waterloo stopped at Clapham Junction. I could only do that by leaving earlier or staying later.

If I rushed across London, I could save 20 minutes on my journey home. Over 5 days that becomes 1 hour 40 minutes.

One can get from London Kings Cross to Doncaster in that time, as a comparison.

 

[43066]

Because trains aren't aircraft, and if (like Eurostar) you start to make them like aircraft they lose some of their advantages and the car becomes ever more attractive. (The car isn't a viable competitor to most flights, it is a viable competitor to most train journeys).

But nobody is saying they should be like aircraft - you literally just need to be there kore than two minutes before departure! My point is that people expect to leave a lot of time for flights, so why can’t they plan to leave (much less) time for catching a train?

The vast majority of people do manage it, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But nobody is saying they should be like aircraft - you literally just need to be there kore than two minutes before departure! My point is that people expect to leave a lot of time for flights, so why can’t they plan to leave (much less) time for catching a train?

The vast majority of people do manage it, of course.

The vast majority plan to do so, but sometimes circumstances take that slack out. Last time I caught a (Great Northern) train from Kings Cross I only just made it, and learned the platform by way of Realtime Trains. I had planned in about 40 minutes of slack, all of which was eaten by a delay. Sure, I could have caught the next train, but it would have messed up a raft of different things.

 

[43066]

The vast majority plan to do so, but sometimes circumstances take that slack out. Last time I caught a (Great Northern) train from Kings Cross I only just made it, and learned the platform by way of Realtime Trains. I had planned in about 40 minutes of slack, all of which was eaten by a delay. Sure, I could have caught the next train, but it would have messed up a raft of different things.

Sometimes people miss trains, agreed. That will always be the case while ever trains run to a timetable.