News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[Oxfordblues]

I suppose just changing the advertised departure time from 1300 to 1257, but keep the working timetable departure at 1300 has been thought of and rejected?

Over at Euston Avanti West Coast already do this. For example 1D87 the 13:02 to Chester is advertised to depart at 13:00 meaning it gets a head-start in case of any minor delay later: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C49221/2025-02-07/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[bramling]

The vast majority plan to do so, but sometimes circumstances take that slack out. Last time I caught a (Great Northern) train from Kings Cross I only just made it, and learned the platform by way of Realtime Trains. I had planned in about 40 minutes of slack, all of which was eaten by a delay. Sure, I could have caught the next train, but it would have messed up a raft of different things.

So this all makes you smarter than average. You allowed slack time, and used an app to give yourself an advantage, and from that you were able to benefit.

People with less aptitude might have missed the train especially if it was taken off the boards early. In so doing, those who did make the train had a greater chance of it being dispatched on time.

What’s not to like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What’s not to like?

As with fares, fake compulsory reservations and other such nonsense, much as I'm an expert user of the railway, I don't think it should be necessary to be an expert user to get the best from it.

 

[35B]

Is there any evidence these people delay trains?

Sounds like more aviation-style nonsense being pushed by LNER.

Five minute interchange at some stations, but Network Rail think you shouldn’t be told where your train is at T-3 because it’s “dangerous”.

Make it make sense.

Anecdotally, at King's Cross, I have plenty of experience of departures being delayed by people rushing up at the last minute, and this is on trains typically announced 15-20 minutes before departure, which is in my experience the norm.

This is not a 5 minute interchange, but the terminus at the start of a long distance line. Early removal from the boards is not the end of the world, but a reasonable measure to guide demand.

 

[arb]

Realistically, this problem is only ever going to be solved by a human applying case-by-case discretion. Never by a blanket "everything gets removed exactly this many minutes before departure".

There is a difference between a peak-time train on platform 0 that is already very full (especially at the nearest end) with a large group of people on the concourse still making their way to that train whilst another large group is trying to get to platform 10, versus a train a train at 5am on Saturday morning on platform 8 that is pretty much empty with hardly anybody on the concourse. And, of course, a whole range of possibilities between those extremes.

 

[bramling]

Precisely. With the DLR the absence of a displayed train is a clear indicator there is one on the platform and it is time to go full throttle sprint to catch it. No-one seems to think that for many people dashing to catch trains is part of their daily exercise regime and probably helps prevent heart attacks.

With the best will in the world this is one of the most ridiculous posts I’ve read in a while.

Firstly, why the need to go “full throttle” on a transport system that runs a frequent service?

Secondly, sprinting to catch a train is simply dangerous. You may be prepared to take that risk, but it’s pretty selfish to extend that risk to others that might get knocked over in the process.

As for any health benefits, if a quick sprint to a platform is the only proper exercise that people are getting then missing a high-frequency service is the least of their concerns. In fact it’s quite risky from a health point of view.

 

[YorksLad12]

Taking King’s Cross as the example it’s actually really time consuming when you’re up against it time wise to come off the tube walk up the concourse to see the train (which will be on the furthest left screen, the one furthest away from the ground floor platform access point) to then walk back again, perhaps through a thousand people to get to the train. Unless your train is likely to go from 9+ you’re just as well going through the barrier and looking at the displays on the end of each platform as you walk across them.

That does bug me. It makes sense at stations such as Leeds with a long, end-on gate line, but I always felt that the screens over the gates should run left to right, with the next departures on the right. Walk in, look up; not walk in, walk a bit further in, look up, walk back the way you came.

What bit of “departure time” do people struggle with? It is when it departs!

Is that 13.00:00 or 13.00:59? You'd miss it at the former and catch it at the latter. WTT departures are usually listed in quarter minutes.

Not displaying platforms on the screens at Kings Cross until ten minutes before departure also causes problems when there is a massive rush for the gateline at exactly the time it shows. So you have around 7 minutes to get the platform from the time it it shows on the screen until the time it disappears for ever.. I always thought the system at KX where everybody waits in the main concourse staring at the departure boards rather than a steady trickle through the barriers to the platforms a little strange.

In fairness, it's often longer than 10 minutes; it depends on the departures. Sometimes they want Stevenage and Peterborough passengers to not catch the Leeds train if it's busy. The Leeds train platform is always called after Edinburgh one if they both stop at Doncaster. We could do with an audible signal when the boards change though, similar to the old split-flap displays, instead of milling around staring at the screens. But I've turned up 20 minutes early for my train, and the platform has been called.

As a proportion vanishingly few passengers use RTT, it's really only rail enthusiasts and staff who even know it exists.

No-one I know uses RTT or similar. Mostly they ask me (because they know I do).

At Euston dozens of peoples gather at the top of the platform before it's announced on the boards, [snip]

At KX, Standard passengers use the first floor/mezzanine level where the food is and line up along the balcony looking at the set of boards near the Harry Potter Money Pit. Handy, if you know you're in coach A to G. They're not app users though, they're just regulars who know how KX works.

Have to be honest; I'm fine with three minutes, just as I was with two minutes. I suspect it's to ensure that LNER leave the station "on time". At Leeds, if the xx11 XC service is late departing, the xx15 LNER will still leave on time (and release the platform). It will then stand just beyond the signals at Leeds West while the XC service runs three minutes ahead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically, this problem is only ever going to be solved by a human applying case-by-case discretion. Never by a blanket "everything gets removed exactly this many minutes before departure".

There is a difference between a peak-time train on platform 0 that is already very full (especially at the nearest end) with a large group of people on the concourse still making their way to that train whilst another large group is trying to get to platform 10, versus a train a train at 5am on Saturday morning on platform 8 that is pretty much empty with hardly anybody on the concourse. And, of course, a whole range of possibilities between those extremes.

That's similar to connection times, which are too blunt an instrument at present when there are connections that would be pretty much guaranteed not to miss even if they were 1 minute and there are ten minute connections that have very little slack. And there are connections that are often held and connections that will never be held.

There's also the last train of the day, which should probably really be timed with a public timetable departure a few minutes before the working timetable to make sure you do sweep up the last minute runners.

 

[43066]

As with fares, fake compulsory reservations and other such nonsense, much as I'm an expert user of the railway, I don't think it should be necessary to be an expert user to get the best from it.

Although of course you don’t need to be an expert user to arrive more than two minutes before departure.

I’m not saying that things don’t go wrong sometimes - as I say I’m sure we have all missed trains at some point, I certainly have. But if you plan ahead it’ll be a very rare occurrence. The issue is that a small minority are incapable of planning; and I suspect these are the same people who chuck their cases down on the platform and start blaming everyone but themselves when they miss their trains.

Removing trains earlier will make this scenario less likely, so I’m all for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although of course you don’t need to be an expert user to arrive more than two minutes before departure.

You sort of do. It doesn't say it on your tickets. It doesn't say it on the booking sites. And it doesn't apply to all stations (someone who's only ever used Merseyrail, say, going long distance for the first time, would have no clue about it). And now we have a London terminus where it's different to all the others.

 

[43066]

Firstly, why the need to go “full throttle” on a transport system that runs a frequent service?

It always blows my mind how many people sprint for tube trains as if their lives depend on catching that specific train, when there’s two minutes to wait until the next one!

You sort of do. It doesn't say it on your tickets. It doesn't say it on the booking sites. And it doesn't apply to all stations (someone who's only ever used Merseyrail, say, going long distance for the first time, would have no clue about it). And now we have a London terminus where it's different to all the others.

Surely someone unfamiliar with the system would leave more time, not less. That certainly applies to those I know who are occasional railway users.

 

[Failed Unit]

What would happen in cases where a train is shown on the board as on time and it is two minutes prior to its departure and they switxh the platform.

This happened more than once at London Euston between 2010 and 2013.

May be things have improved there but I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't.

This generally doesn't happen at Kings Cross.

However the point about the "delayed service" this is an issue, as in many instances you don't know how long it would be delayed for. We have all seen examples of 1657 - exp on time, then 1657 exp 1658, getting constantly moved back until it departs maybe at 1710. If this is removed from the board then someone who arrives at 1700 probably could have caught it if they knew it was still at the station. However I can also see on this kind of delay they don't really want a never ending flow of passengers trying to board it, when they train does eventually get permission to leave.

Happens from time to time at Kings Cross, but happens a lot at stations such as Welwyn Garden City where the platform is still occupied by the previous train. I hope that they would never introduce it at stations like that as people not paying full attention will be going to different destinations when they train displayed on the platform is actually the previous one running late.

 

[arb]

The issue is that a small minority are incapable of planning; and I suspect these are the same people who chuck their cases down on the platform and start blaming everyone but themselves when they miss their trains.

Removing trains earlier will make this scenario less likely, so I’m all for it.

Won't those people now chuck their cases down in the middle of the concourse and start blaming everyone but themselves? (Thus creating a trip hazard that affects more people...)

 

[bramling]

You sort of do. It doesn't say it on your tickets. It doesn't say it on the booking sites. And it doesn't apply to all stations (someone who's only ever used Merseyrail, say, going long distance for the first time, would have no clue about it). And now we have a London terminus where it's different to all the others.

Surely it’s just one of life’s little lessons, then?

Having said that, if they’re going to run this sort of policy then it needs to be consistent, and needs to be communicated. On the latter point, perhaps this is why the issue has found its way to the BBC?

 

[Failed Unit]

It always blows my mind how many people sprint for tube trains as if their lives depend on catching that specific train, when there’s two minutes to wait until the next one!

On the Picadilly line at the moment I can understand why. A train on the platform is worth 2 on a departure board

Surely it’s just one of life’s little lessons, then?

Having said that, if they’re going to run this sort of policy then it needs to be consistent, and needs to be communicated. On the latter point, perhaps this is why the issue has found its way to the BBC?

I don't think they can have it consistent; I would work at terminals but imagine the Choas at places here trains terminate. The train on the platform 1 is the 1600 to Peterborough, but as it is 1558 it is now displaying the 1603 Birmingham New Street. Terminals don't have such dense use of the platforms.

 

[43066]

Won't those people now chuck their cases down in the middle of the concourse and start blaming everyone but themselves? (Thus creating a trip hazard that affects more people...)

Probably, but it’s less of a safety issue if they don’t do it on the platforms. People have even been known to chuck their cases onto the tracks before . Of course the result of that was being escorted off the station in handcuffs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But nobody is saying they should be like aircraft - you literally just need to be there kore than two minutes before departure! My point is that people expect to leave a lot of time for flights, so why can’t they plan to leave (much less) time for catching a train?

Because flying is for a lot of people something they do maybe a couple of times a year for special trips like annual holidays. You expect long check-ins at the airport because of all the checking luggage in and checking in and passport control and finding their way round an unfamiliar airport and such like, so it's not unreasonable to expect that people plan for it and allow additional hours on their journeys.

Train journeys are on the other hand things that lots of people do several times a week or even every day. They are completely routine and so people not unreasonably expect them to be completed as quickly and conveniently as possible. Asking someone to arrive 10-15 minutes early to get their train could easily add up to several days out of their life over the course of a year.

 

[Horizon22]

It always blows my mind how many people sprint for tube trains as if their lives depend on catching that specific train, when there’s two minutes to wait until the next one!

I think it often depends on the visual; turn a corner and see a train and people change their pace pretty rapidly.

People do naturally rush; its proven human behaviour and is notorious for happening at London terminals all the time. 2 minutes has always traditionally seemed to work well, so am surprised by 3 minutes but perhaps there are certain local factors involved here. There becomes a cut-off where it becomes ridiculous and would suggest than 2-3 mins is probably the amount that would be tolerated as a maximum by the public.

 

[bramling]

On the Picadilly line at the moment I can understand why. A train on the platform is worth 2 on a departure board

This is a fair point.

I don't think they can have it consistent; I would work at terminals but imagine the Choas at places here trains terminate. The train on the platform 1 is the 1600 to Peterborough, but as it is 1558 it is now displaying the 1603 Birmingham New Street. Terminals don't have such dense use of the platforms.

I don’t read it that anyone is advocating taking trains off platform screens. But certainly you could take departures off the main concourse departure board at New Street without it causing confusion.

For screens such as at the King’s Cross platform ends, presumably it would be possible to have something like “stand clear - this train is now preparing to depart”, rather than moving forward to the next service. How you’d get that to work consistently at an intermediate station I’m less sure, and agree it probably wouldn’t be desirable.

 

[jfollows]

Is that 13.00:00 or 13.00:59? You'd miss it at the former and catch it at the latter. WTT departures are usually listed in quarter minutes.

They’re in half minutes, but it doesn’t matter, because trains depart at the advertised times, not at the WTT times, if possible.
See https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/
Yes, times are recorded at a finer granularity such as quarter minutes. But it’s only the London Underground which has this granularity in its working timetables.

 

[Haywain]

Because flying is for a lot of people something they do maybe a couple of times a year for special trips like annual holidays.

Long distance rail travel is like that for a lot of people too.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it often depends on the visual; turn a corner and see a train and people change their pace pretty rapidly.

People do naturally rush; its proven human behaviour and is notorious for happening at London terminals all the time. 2 minutes has always traditionally seemed to work well, so am surprised by 3 minutes but perhaps there are certain local factors involved here. There becomes a cut-off where it becomes ridiculous and would suggest than 2-3 mins is probably the amount that would be tolerated as a maximum by the public.

I know it is slightly different and one for another thread, but it is amusing how habits are formed. The 0821 Welwyn Garden City - London service has been on time twice this week. Cue lots of people running from the bridge and down the steps as it is normal 3-4 mins late.

The behavior would not change if the train was removed from the monitors 3 minutes before departure, as everyone is used to it going from platform 2 so they don't actually look at the monitors anyway.

I don't at Kings Cross, I head to platforms 9 & 10. If I don't see the train then I look at the monitor. If it is on platform 2, I curse myself but probably wouldn't have made it anyway so the fact it isn't on the monitor anymore has had no impact.

 

[43066]

Train journeys are on the other hand things that lots of people do several times a week or even every day. They are completely routine and so people not unreasonably expect them to be completed as quickly and conveniently as possible. Asking someone to arrive 10-15 minutes early to get their train could easily add up to several days out of their life over the course of a year.

For commuter type journeys I agree, but many of journeys made at Kings Cross are in the “once or twice a year” category.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Sometimes people miss trains, agreed. That will always be the case while ever trains run to a timetable.

I suppose the question here is, if a passenger arrives at the station two and a half minutes before their train is due to depart, have they missed the train? How about one minute? Or thirty seconds?

An awful lot of passengers, comparing long-distance trains to buses and local trains, would argue that they have not missed the train until the doors have closed for departure. A reasonable number would say that they haven't missed it until the advertised departure time, notwithstanding any 'doors close 30 seconds before departure' type policies.

If there needs to be buffer time, putting it between the public and working timetables makes sense. There's a reason why airlines advertise a departure time that's 'when the doors close' and not 'when the aircraft leaves' - even if their boarding procedures and terminal faff dictate arriving an hour or more prior to the advertised departure time.

Long distance rail travel is like that for a lot of people too.

Not for all: there are a reasonable number of people who travel Scotland-London on a regular basis.

And for what it's worth, when I was flying every week I'd got my arrival time at the airport down to a T, such that my gate would be called as I cleared security, and I didn't stop moving until I was taking my seat.

I now make that journey less frequently, and by train when I can - with a cross-London connection. I can very easily see circumstances where a train disappearing from a departure board a couple of minutes early would mean I miss the direct train, have to get a later one, and wind up losing still more time to get a further connection to complete my journey.

 

[Haywain]

when I was flying every week I'd got my arrival time at the airport down to a T, such that my gate would be called as I cleared security, and I didn't stop moving until I was taking my seat.

So, you are a confident regular traveller. Does that mean the whole railway should be tailored to your requirements and not to those of the less confident and less regular?

I can very easily see circumstances where a train disappearing from a departure board a couple of minutes early would mean I miss the direct train, have to get a later one, and wind up losing still more time to get a further connection to complete my journey.

Oh dear. As a confident regular traveller it should be easy for you to make the minor adjustments necessary.

 

[Horizon22]

I now make that journey less frequently, and by train when I can - with a cross-London connection. I can very easily see circumstances where a train disappearing from a departure board a couple of minutes early would mean I miss the direct train, have to get a later one, and wind up losing still more time to get a further connection to complete my journey.

The thing is that whilst departure boards might be cleared down early, you can't "clear down" apps like Trainline or multiple other journey planning systems, so if someone is just looking at their phone throughout they will just keep on going to their platform. There will be little to no difference for regular / confident travellers. And to be honest the less regular travellers in my experience tend to give themselves loads of time at their origin station to familarise themselves / ask questions.

Reliance on station boards is - for better and for worse (don't get me started on Google Maps "platforms"...) - reducing these days.

 

[bahnause]

What a nonsensical and absolutely customer-unfriendly concept. Without having checked, I assume that the minimum transfer times have not been adapted to this regulation and the TOC continue to sell such connections without flinching. The problem can easily be solved with the already existing WTT and PTB, without the customer having to deal with randomly generated “buffer times” that vary from station to station and depend on the moon phase and star sign of the station manager.

So, you are a confident regular traveller. Does that mean the whole railway should be tailored to your requirements and not to those of the less confident and less regular?

It's funny that you mention this, because it is the non-regular users who are most affected by this regulation. This is precisely the user group that knows the least about such “local specialties”.

 

[Horizon22]

What a nonsensical and absolutely customer-unfriendly concept. Without having checked, I assume that the minimum transfer times have not been adapted to this regulation and the TOC continue to sell such connections without flinching.

It's a London terminus; the transfer times will only be from London Underground and/or walking.

 

[Hadders]

Radio 2 reporting that trains will be removed from the departure board 4 minutes prior to departure rather than 3.

My view is 4 minutes is excessively long. I can get from the Victoria Line platform to train at Kings Cross in three minutes, yes that's by being in the very rear carriage of a northbound Victoria Line train, a brisk walk (not run) up the escalator.

Isn't the automated final call currently set at three minutes? Is this going to change as well?

 

[Horizon22]

Radio 2 reporting that trains will be removed from the departure board 4 minutes prior to departure rather than 3.

My view is 4 minutes is excessively long. I can get from the Victoria Line platform to train at Kings Cross in three minutes, yes that's by being in the very rear carriage of a northbound Victoria Line train, a brisk walk (not run) up the escalator.

Isn't the automated final call currently set at three minutes? Is this going to change as well?

The article says final call (i.e audio) at -4 mins & off the boards (i.e visual) at -3 mins, so perhaps the Radio 2 report got the two conflated?

Increasingly I find stations don't do last calls or at least they do not apply to every train.