Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[Sun Chariot]

What do/did other passengers think about having the backside right in front of them of someone standing at a drop light, blocking the view out? Would feel like commuting rather than something one had chosen to do!

In the 1980s, the service trains were so easy to "bag" a door droplight. In open coaches, the good etiquette was to close the vestibule door, so general seated passengers were not inconvenienced. Corridor compartment stock, that wasn't such an issue.

Tours of the era, it was a case of knowing where we wanted to lean out and listen or take photos; and then getting out to a window on the correct side, a couple of miles before.
I remember 1988, The Fellsman 2, 50050 and a sick 50024. I was sat in the lead Mk2a TSO and every door droplight and seating bay window had heads stuck out about three miles before we started the ascent of Shap.

The specials aimed at normal public, which enthusiasts used too, "heads out windows" would incur bewildered looks from normals. 1991, NSE ran a "Christmas Shopper Special" from Aylesbury to Milton Keynes. I think I was the only passenger with head out along the former GC and LNWR...

 

[xotGD]

My take is that there are two types of "railtour". Namely excursions and Nedexes.

The first is aimed at normals, even where a kettle is provided, this is just to offer a bit of nostalgia for viewers of periods dramas.

The second is aimed at cranks, but can be broadly divided into three sub-categories:

1. Yellow-pen trips. Covering "rare" track, I.e., trundling up and down sidings.
2. Red-pen trips. Fixed to have a couple of Sheds or similar that have never worked a passenger train before.
3. Classic traction trips. Offering a run behind a member of your favourite class from back in the day, where you can enjoy plenty of mileage and some serious thrash.

It is only for the third of these where stock with opening windows is a priority for a decent proportion of the bashers on board.

 

[TSGN Spotter]

Yes, of course, its always tragic when this happens. However on the Railway Touring Company tour that i was on there were big signs next to the toilet saying not to hang around the window or else you would be chucked off, it just seems a little over the top to me...

I would imagine it is to ensure that everyone follows the rules. At the end of the day its quite simple, you aren't allowed to put your head out of the window.

When i have been on RTC trips its been great, and very polite staff. I honestly think the MK2 are an okay stand in for the Mk1s until the CDL issue get resolved.

 

[yorksrob]

The thumper unit is all mk1, and I notice that the latest tour is nine carriages, as opposed to the usual six, so that seems to be a resounding endorsement of mk1 rail touring.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The thumper unit is all mk1, and I notice that the latest tour is nine carriages, as opposed to the usual six, so that seems to be a resounding endorsement of mk1 rail touring.

That will be a fabulous sight on the EWR

https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/railtours/#eastwest

 

[DarloRich]

Im sure you can agree the Deltic has one of the best engine sounds going? Surely if youve paid a lot of money you would want to be able to experience that terrific sound tearing down the East Coast?

I have zero interest in "sounds" or "thrash" or "tonez" - What I want is a nice, comfortable day out recreating bygone experiences. That and a good wine list.

Personally, I don't want an antique asset worked hard. I want it to have a nice, smooth, comfortable day out that doesn't wear it out or break it!

The ORR are very aware of the issue and, yes, the ultimate sanction is available of withdrawing an operator's passenger licence if the ORR thinks that a proportional response to non-compliance. It should be noted that it is the train operator rather than the tour promoter that would be impacted first, so the TOCs make their expectations clear to the tour promoters.

Thank you - I expressed my position poorly.

1001 Tours? I hadn't realised that so many carriages were operable by them. That will be a fabulous sight

the Hastings unit is coming to MK later this year - running via E-W

As an aside I note they charge more for sitting in a motor coach. Well done to them for taking advantage of this strange obsession enthusiasts have! I commend them.

 

[Sun Chariot]

As an aside I note they charge more for sitting in a motor coach. Well done to them for taking advantage of this strange obsession enthusiasts have! I commend them.

When the class 205s and 207s were still in BR use, I used to actively avoid travelling in the driving motor coach.

 

[DarloRich]

When the class 205s and 207s were still in BR use, I used to actively avoid travelling in the driving motor coach.

I can only recall travelling on one in preservation - we dint get them often in the north east

They are very nice to ride in!

 

[Harpo]

Well done to them for taking advantage of this strange obsession enthusiasts have!

‘Strange obsession’ is a bit ‘stones/glass houses’ on a trainspotting forum.

 

[DarloRich]

‘Strange obsession’ is a bit ‘stones/glass houses’ on a trainspotting forum.

a fair point!

 

[yorksrob]

That will be a fabulous sight on the EWR

https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/railtours/#eastwest

It will indeed !

When the class 205s and 207s were still in BR use, I used to actively avoid travelling in the driving motor coach.

I didn't really mind particularly, although I did tend to avoid the inserted CEP carriages as I'd had plenty of experience of them on the "Kent Coast" routes

 

[co-tr-paul]

I thank everyone for their views.
I'm not including travel and hotel or disposable incom in my comments as living in deepest, darkest SW Kernow it's standard
Personally, I have, after many years, only had the misfortune to travel in one sealed window vehicle and that ìwas a destination tour rather than haulage and even then most of return journey I snuck into a mk1 !
Last year I had the privilege of 6158 the mk2f with the opening windows and it's a brilliant modification and should be encouraged.
Also, as a railway employee, I can get free/discounted travel so destination tours are basically out now because why pay railtour prices for sealed window travel when I can get it much cheaper on service trains ?
I've gone from almost 10 trips a year 25 years ago to just 2 now.... .
Saying that, looking forward to Saturdays CME and hopefully 6158 again !

 

[Mike Machin]

Not going to happen mainline, but standard issue if you’re sat corridor side at a gala.

I’m immune to the sight of saggy Tesco jeans heading south as two hairy moons bulge northwards. My ears take over from eyes at times like that.

That's exactly why I always enjoy heritage lines on an ordinary quiet day, when there's no rush, no overcrowding and no 'hairy moons!'

 

[31160]

Of course one thing that you have to remember is for a lot of the ETH fitted class they spend most of their latter years pulling around air con coaches anyway, definitely type 4 and above pretty much always had air cons,if you look at the deltic halued service trains at the fag end of the service pretty much all MK2 sealed set, so a bit of recreating history

 

[BlueLeanie]

Would it help if the there were screens in Mk2 stock displaying a driver's eye view?

It would be a relatively low cost option these days.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Would it help if the there were screens in Mk2 stock displaying a driver's eye view?

It would be a relatively low cost option these days.

Take that a step further and have a suitably shielded high quality microphone fixed to the outside of the leading coach and feed the output to the pa system! Probably cheaper than retrofitting opening windows to air-cons. /s

 

[Tetchytyke]

Take that a step further and have a suitably shielded high quality microphone fixed to the outside of the leading coach and feed the output to the pa system! Probably cheaper than retrofitting opening windows to air-cons. /s

That's actually a very good idea.

The whole point of a steam tour is to enjoy the steam haulage. Whether that's in the cheap seats or in a first class facing pair depends on your budget. I'm as big a fan as anyone of the wine list, but if you can't see or hear the locomotive then, really, what's the point? You may as well just have a day out on a normal service train and save yourself £300.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm as big a fan as anyone of the wine list, but if you can't see or hear the locomotive then, really, what's the point?

For several reasons I can think of, off the top of my head:

For a high quality dining experience, with the added novelty of it being onboard a moving train;
For the spectacle of a steam locomotive on the main line picking me up and dropping me off at origin and destination;
For a convenient journey not usually available direct from a local starting point to a favoured destination in greater comfort and with more attentive service than a normal service train can offer, while partially recreating the atmosphere of yesteryear through a lack of screens and obtrusive audio.

Introduce either of those visual or audio features to railtours, as has been suggested above, and I don't think I'd bother travelling on one again. Granted, I can only afford to do so occasionally in any case so my absence would be of no consequence to tour operators and I'd stick to preserved lines.

 

[Sun Chariot]

For my parents' silver wedding anniversary, back in 1995, my brother and I bought them two tickets on the British Pullman. 35028 Clan Line did the honours that day.
When we greeted them back at Victoria on their return, they said they'd barely known a steam loco was up front - but the sense of opulence, history and fine dining would stay in their memories.

I rather imagine today's Belmond Pullman travellers - in the majority - aren't remotely bothered what the engine up front is.
And I bet none of them has tried head-out of the windows on the Kitchen Cars' side corridor - and definitely no arm flailing!

 

[12LDA28C]

For my parents' silver wedding anniversary, back in 1995, my brother and I bought them two tickets on the British Pullman. 35028 Clan Line did the honours that day.
When we greeted them back at Victoria on their return, they said they'd barely known a steam loco was up front - but the sense of opulence, history and fine dining would stay in their memories.

I rather imagine today's Belmond Pullman travellers - in the majority - aren't remotely bothered what the engine up front is.
And I bet none of them has tried head-out of the windows on the Kitchen Cars' side corridor - and definitely no arm flailing!

Certainly on Saphos tours I’ve been on, many of the dining customers certainly make their way to the front of the train when the diesel loco is replaced by steam and a fair few of them have their photo taken in front of the diesel too…

 

[geoffk]

Certainly a big factor in my case. I'm not fond of the closed-in nature of air con carriages at the best of times, and I really wouldn't want to spend hours contemplating the spacky 1970s interior of a Mark 2 or 3 for several hours on a steam special. If you can't hear the thing properly, what's the point of going?

And the diesel on the rear detracts from the experience.

 

[Krokodil]

This is simply a consequence of central door locking rolling out after the withdrawal of pressure ventilated stock (MK1, MK2, mk2a, mk2b, mk2c).

More pertinently it's a consequence of David Smith being too stubborn to retrofit his Mk1s. LSL, SRPS and Vintage Trains have all either managed it or are progressing to the satisfaction of the regulator.

 

[Killingworth]

My take is that there are two types of "railtour". Namely excursions and Nedexes.

The first is aimed at normals, even where a kettle is provided, this is just to offer a bit of nostalgia for viewers of periods dramas.

The second is aimed at cranks, but can be broadly divided into three sub-categories:

1. Yellow-pen trips. Covering "rare" track, I.e., trundling up and down sidings.
2. Red-pen trips. Fixed to have a couple of Sheds or similar that have never worked a passenger train before.
3. Classic traction trips. Offering a run behind a member of your favourite class from back in the day, where you can enjoy plenty of mileage and some serious thrash.

It is only for the third of these where stock with opening windows is a priority for a decent proportion of the bashers on board.

So many categories and sub-categories in Nerdexes but it's similar with Railtours.

That ranges from the top end at very high prices, sometimes with days away in hotels, some with dressing up, to those aboard with their sandwiches.

We've met all sorts of fellow travellers. The 2 couples seated together who hit it off from first sitting down to leaving the train, drinking like there was no tomorrow having spent their time at the destination on a pub crawl. The older couples on nostalgia trips. The family group get togethers. The couple who'd won the tickets from their employer and were enduring their trip. Those taking photos. Others checking speeds. Some along for the destination. First timers and regulars.

Winter trips starting very early and finishing very late in the dark aren't a great attraction for many.

Two factors putting us off are that too few pick up in the Sheffield area and of those that do too many go to Edinburgh or Carlisle. Been there, done that, whatever the traction or rolling stock.

Price is a factor for us all.

 

[Mat17]

...and definitely no arm flailing!

Why do people do that? I really don't get it.

I totally get people might want to see/hear the traction. I also understand those who are totally disinterested and go for the opulence and the meals.

Waving arms about and screamingly like football yobs though?

 

[12LDA28C]

And the diesel on the rear detracts from the experience.

Not sure the provision of light, heat or aircon and power to the kitchen facilities on dining trains (sourced from the diesel on the rear) really 'detracts' from the experience.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Why do people do that? I really don't get it.
Waving arms about and screamingly like football yobs though?

No idea. It's been a staple part of some rail fans' "way" since the 1970s - plenty of examples on YouTube, of flailers behind class 25s, 40s. I have a photo of 50015 as it thrashed out of Hereford, with many arms flailing out of the leading coaches.

Never been my "thing" - I was one for doing new track routes.

Perhaps arm flailing is a bit like the noisy, incoherent, out of tune football-chanting in stations and on trains - completely pointless and frankly ruddy annoying.

 

[xotGD]

Why do people do that?

Because they enjoy it.

 

[AndyD4]

Take that a step further and have a suitably shielded high quality microphone fixed to the outside of the leading coach and feed the output to the pa system! Probably cheaper than retrofitting opening windows to air-cons. /s

For several reasons I can think of, off the top of my head:

For a high quality dining experience, with the added novelty of it being onboard a moving train;
For the spectacle of a steam locomotive on the main line picking me up and dropping me off at origin and destination;
For a convenient journey not usually available direct from a local starting point to a favoured destination in greater comfort and with more attentive service than a normal service train can offer, while partially recreating the atmosphere of yesteryear through a lack of screens and obtrusive audio.

Introduce either of those visual or audio features to railtours, as has been suggested above, and I don't think I'd bother travelling on one again. Granted, I can only afford to do so occasionally in any case so my absence would be of no consequence to tour operators and I'd stick to preserved lines.

Why would you stop travelling on rail tours? Just have a high quality visual and audio in the enthusiast part of the train and none in the rest.

 

[Krokodil]

If I wanted to watch a screen and listen to some speakers I'd open Youtube from the comfort of my own living room, at no cost at all.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If I wanted to watch a screen and listen to some speakers I'd open Youtube from the comfort of my own living room, at no cost at all.

As a certain sports broadcaster has been known to say, "it's only live once!"