cactustwirly
Established Member
So a London to Bristol service is suddenly regional, but London to Birmingham isn't...
Very weird logic there!
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Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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So a London to Bristol service is suddenly regional, but London to Birmingham isn't...
Very weird logic there!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Look at the stopping patterns and the general pattern of usage as well as the existence (or not) of parallel local services.
If your proposal is to remove long-distance services from the quantum permanently and replace these with local services then that would work fine. Of course it would probably mean Birmingham to London, Leeds to London, Manchester to London etc going down to 1tph for ever more, with 2 hour gaps at peak times.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Given that local services do exist for many of these relations (most notably around Birmingham), this is gross hyperbole. At worst for that part you might need LNR to have a bit more stock to run 12-car north of Northampton instead of 8.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Except the Birmingham service has a local service, they are both very similar
Twelve cars and platforms to match are also not going to happen because that would be rather expensive. The same applies to the stations between Manchester and Crewe and Stoke-on-Trent and between Leeds and Doncaster. It's no more practical than cutting the long-distance services to provide more than 1tph of 4 car train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Euston to Birmingham has a good local service throughout. Paddington to Bristol doesn't. This is very significant.
SDO. Like they already do at Stechford which is only a 4 car platform.
cactustwirly
Established Member
That's because there are more stations north of Northampton than West of Didcot
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why it is doesn't matter. The fact that it is means that Avanti West Coast is not the primary provider of local services (but GWR is).
Glenn1969
Established Member
Birmingham- Wolverhampton- Stafford- Stoke?
The Trent Valley stations
Should these be served by a local service?
Also should a local service be provided for Retford, Newark and Grantham instead of long distance trains? Pretty sure what is now Thameslink applied to serve these stations and terminate at Doncaster. Should that have been allowed with all long distance services running fast to Doncaster ?
The Trent Valley stations
Should these be served by a local service?
Also should a local service be provided for Retford, Newark and Grantham instead of long distance trains? Pretty sure what is now Thameslink applied to serve these stations and terminate at Doncaster. Should that have been allowed with all long distance services running fast to Doncaster ?
You can't use SDO at nearly every station because people will get stuck in the wrong part of the train and be unable to move forward. Also there's insufficient rolling stock for this.
As with your other suggestions, adding a new suggestion as a fix is always going to be unbelievably expensive compared to just not introducing compulsory reservation. And regardless, they're not up for consideration by government (although they should be).
AlbertBeale
Established Member
I don't think that's the case. In recent years I've travelled up an down the Liguria coast a number of times. There are local trains which mostly stop everywhere, and a few long-distance IC trains which stop at a few places. The ticket machines on the stations will sell tickets for immediate use on both [assuming the IC train is stopping at the stations you're travelling between, of course]; the cheapest tickets are only valid on the local trains, but there's no block on using the other trains if you pay for the right ticket.
On the main subject here, I'd hate it if there wasn't an option to get a train without prior planning when necessary - accepting, of course, that being in an unreserved carriage might mean standing.
Sounds like to make CR work, we need to build a new route calling at the major cities and move the intercity trains to that route, freeing up capacity on the existing lines for people who want to travel when they like without upsetting the passengers on cheapy tickets who're afraid of people standing.
Could even call it "high speed" if it's not stopping anywhere but the main places?
Could even call it "high speed" if it's not stopping anywhere but the main places?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Sounds like to make CR work, we need to build a new route calling at the major cities and move the intercity trains to that route, freeing up capacity on the existing lines for people who want to travel when they like without upsetting the passengers on cheapy tickets who're afraid of people standing.
Could even call it "high speed" if it's not stopping anywhere but the main places?
Yes, it is almost inconceivable that HS2 services wouldn't be CR (and I'm sure I've heard it said that the tunnel evacuation facilities will require it because the evacuation capacity won't be provided for a crush load). But HS2 genuinely will not provide a local service function because the legacy routes remain for that purpose - indeed, some local journeys e.g. Euston-Old Oak will be completely banned (a bit like Euston-Watford is now on Avanti).
I suppose that does raise an argument of "HS2 will bring CR, but don't implement it until then".
Also of note that HS2 will basically double Euston-Manchester/Brum capacity, so the chance of there not being a seat when you want it is going to be tiny.
cactustwirly
Established Member
It does, the equivalent GWR service is the GWR London to Didcot semi fast.
The fact that it doesn't extend to Bristol is because there are no intermediate stations for it to serve.
North of Northampton there are loads of intermediate stations, like Canley and Tile Hill, justifying a local service.
Skymonster
Established Member
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Which is a great argument for implementing compulsory reservations on a few occasions extreme occasions, but not requiring compulsory reservations at almost any other time.
Anyway, I really don't think you understand the concept of revenue management - which essentially aims to ensure there is always capacity and a lack of restrictions to enable the accommodation high-paying customers wanting or needing to travel at [very] short notice, while offering incentives but applying greater restrictions for the price-sensitive to fill seats that would otherwise go unsold at higher fares.
The only issue is that revenue management is moot point for the railway at the moment, because it has no incentive to maximise revenue with shortfalls being picked up by the government. If LNER was a privately-held TOC operating in more normal times under a standard agreement with the DfT, I'm willing to bet it would not be implementing compulsory reservations in the way it currently is as the organisation would be motivated to maximise revenue.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So you don't think any of the following understand revenue management?
- SNCF
- RENFE
- FS (Trenitalia)
- Italo (a private company, remember)
- PKP IC (I know the situation there is slightly complex and a bit like Avanti is now)
- Amtrak
- VIA Rail Canada
- State Railway of Thailand
- KTM Berhad (Malaysia)
- China Railways
- India Railways (high value business passengers don't travel in second class unreserved, so the existence of that is irrelevant)
Your proposals permit someone buying a single from Wakefield to Leeds at £4.40 (less if they're a season ticket holder) to block a seat for a London to Leeds customer willing to pay £136.50, who will then be told the train is full without recourse to an alternative. All it needs is for the person travelling from Wakefield to get there first.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Technically that could happen. But if you allocate seating properly, you'll just allocate a London to Wakefield passenger into that seat instead. That's why seat selection needs to be chargeable.
How many of these operate routes where there is no non-CR alternative? How many of them enforced CR on routes after decades of not requiring reservations?
You simply can't compare 40 year old TGV high speed routes with alternative services with Durham-Newcastle journeys that have been available for over a century with no alternative.
Again these are your ideas and not current practice. The railway would be perfect if everyone who has good ideas could implement them.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Yes charge for the right to be able to change your seat.
A Window seat rather than the default aisle seat (or windowless seat), that will cost you an extra £5
Want that table seat so you can carry out work, or booking 4 seats and wanting to sit together? That will be an extra £10 each please. Don't want to pay?, then one member of your group will end up in coach A, another in coach B, but we will be kind to put 2 people in coach D, but at opposite ends. Don't you dare move seats as the "Seat Reservation guard" will charge you a penalty of £100 each. This is for your own safety, we don't care that the coach you are sat in is full and the other coaches are empty.
Don't want to pay, your seat reservation will remain a secret until you check into the train and you will get what is left. Fail to check in and that will be a penalty of £100. Board one of our lovely trains without a seat reservation, yep that will cost you £100.
Meanwhile in the real world, passengers will simply flock to the plane or car rather than paying over the odds to pick a decent seat for the 4 hour journey from London to Edinburgh
How can you allocate a seat properly? As an example anytime I have booked my trains either between Dundee-Newcastle or Newcastle-Dundee or on the other side York-Newcastle, I get the allocated seat as I request, but I can hop on board and some people are in them? Either people don't look (which I gathered from that trip from York), or as the late train couple years back i'm correctly allocated but it hits Edinburgh switch off system and some passengers end up causing friction over allocation of seats?
Why should you be charged for picking a seat? Is this just to make more profit from customers that the airlines are doing? I thought the whole point of me booking a train at a certain time/allocated a seat was in the price? What happens if you paid for the price for the seat, someone else is in it but because they'll not budge charge you extra if it was the seat next to them? Utter madness to me.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No.
What I mean is that the computer allocates seats to make best use of them. So for example if you already have a seat booked Leeds-York, if someone comes in and books KX-Leeds you allocate that in preference into that seat rather than a different one. The trains are long enough and there will be enough of this that the basic preferences (forward/back/table/window/aisle) could still largely be respected, and there's no need to play the silly Ryanair game of splitting people up.
The reason it should be chargeable is that allowing everyone to pick for free means they will pick, and this can cause inefficient allocation, e.g. your last two seats are reserved as Leeds-York and KX-Leeds in separate seats, and you can't then sell a KX-York ticket as the train is nominally full.
A small fee, doesn't need to be massive, a couple of quid would do, ensures that only those for whom seat selection is important bother selecting and so allows those efficiencies.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Only if that's allowed. One reservation per season ticket per day would control that, you could then change it if you needed to, and if you missed the train another could be made on-spec.
Almost nobody makes multiple journeys per day on a long-distance season. For those who do a manual process could be put in place.
It depends on whether LNER wants to resemble Ryanair or British Airways. Last time I went to New York with BA, I paid extra for seats on the outward flight because I wanted a window seat. On the way back I couldn't care less because it was an overnight flight. Being a family of four I expected them to seat us in a block of four seats between the two aisles which is exactly what they did.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Ah but remember there will be systems in place to only allow one reservation per day per ticket, unless the season ticket holder wishes to pay more money to reserve more seats
It will be simple enough to change the reservation if you are running late...
"Sorry no seats available for the rest of the day"
But then that is all fine & dandy according to some because all season tickets holders board the exact same train in the morning and will board the exact same train in the evening and can plan their day around those set timings, want to stay an extra couple hours to complete a project/meeting runs over or go out to a pub for some post-work drinks with some work colleagues etc, then tough
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As the purpose isn't profiteering but making most efficient use of seats (to e.g. pair together KX-Leeds and Leeds-York journeys, for example), there's no reason to go all Ryanair on it. It'd just be a small fee to ensure that only those who really valued seat selection did it, allowing those efficiencies.
Kite159
Veteran Member
It will start as a "small" fee, but increase over time with certain seats being given a premium... Other operators will see "oh look, LNER are making thousands extra by charging to select your own seat, we should follow suit"
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